Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Mithron on December 11, 2013, 01:09:19 pm

Title: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mithron on December 11, 2013, 01:09:19 pm
I know there's a huge 8 page long thread on the Art, but I'm really disappointed in seeing it wasn't nerfed/changed in this recent patch. I loved this game the first week I discovered it: noobs everywhere, tons of crazy ship and weapon combinations and learning the game was awesome. There were tons of low ranks to play with and so many different strategies to discover and learn with. Now I log in to nothing but rank 10+ clan tryhards in the only 4 games available and they're all using Art metas. It's so boring. I've played this game for less than a week and I'm already bored and tired of it. During peak hours, it's not much different. Maybe 8 games available with clan stacking everywhere.

Does anyone else feel the same?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 11, 2013, 01:18:27 pm
It was fixed because its not over powered.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2013, 02:00:20 pm
^^

Stop trying to charge a sniping ship and thinking it's okay to get away with it.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mithron on December 11, 2013, 03:15:01 pm
Except it is OP, and everyone's using sniping ships now so there is no other way to play.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Alistair MacBain on December 11, 2013, 03:22:47 pm
Any real argument besides its op?
Its just a viable build you have to figure out how to fight it.
I play on alot of sniper ships. (Galleons, artemis junkers) And i know its weaknesses.
Just because most ppl try to charge snipers straight they arent op.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on December 11, 2013, 03:25:38 pm
And tghen we wonder why so few new players remain. Could Sammy and Byron be a bit nicer to new players?

Artemis spam is an issue this is allways seems to be the case when some new leong range meta is found. After all clans want practice with the new meta and practice against the new meta. Need to be prepared when you go into competitive events.

As for countering artemis just hope they aren't good with it and will thus not camp at the maximum altitude. Try to neak up on them, use cover as much as possible. Attack with both ships at the same time, use difirent approach so they can't switch from 1 target to the other easily and fast. Try to go above them, try to pop their ballons and get good with mobula. It's going to probably become the counter to junkers. Especialy artemis junkers.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2013, 03:33:06 pm
How does this have anything to do with new players or my niceness to them? I hardly even play with non gents or non competitively. What the heck do you know about my niceness or lack thereof? Is that really the best argument you have in an Artemis debate, my niceness?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on December 11, 2013, 03:37:55 pm
I would like to se comments to new players like this:
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2013, 02:00:20 pm
^^

Stop trying to charge a sniping ship and thinking it's okay to get away with it.

replaced with helpful comments. Copy paste them if you have them. Or link them.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 11, 2013, 03:46:05 pm
Stating a weapon isn't op is hardly being mean.

I honestly like the fact that triple artemis Junkers are so popular right now is it makes the game a bit easier for me. Artemis and Hwachas are routinely declared OP when the reality is they are annoying but counter-able.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mithron on December 11, 2013, 03:59:26 pm
I like how everyone says they're not op and just counter them, but don't post how to counter or what counters them other than "hope they're bad."
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Chango on December 11, 2013, 04:00:40 pm
I dub the artemis as the noobtube. I tend to use them if I have a very low level crew. So if your Captain is flying a 3 artemis junker, it's because he thinks you are a bunch of noobs!
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 11, 2013, 04:03:56 pm
Move your ship around, shoot out there artemis, take advantage of their lack of killing power, be smart about rebuilds (sometimes leave a component almost rebuilt) use height advantage, pop their balloons.

^All this, you will see in that 8 page thread about the artemis.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Subarco on December 11, 2013, 04:04:22 pm
People have posted counters in the other thread. Artemis don;t have a good vertical arc so you take advantage of that by rising above them. If the enemy is at the max sky ceiling, you lower your altitude so that they are also forced to go low in order to shoot you, and when you are close, quickly rise above them. Basically, anything, but charging in a straight line at a wall of Artemis rockets.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2013, 04:04:59 pm
A squid with a carronade will lock this build down almost instantly, so easy.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: snor-laxatives on December 11, 2013, 05:07:04 pm
Exactly what has been mentioned.  Look at the 8-pager, but just incase:

Move up: you dont even necessarily need to bring Hydrogen for this to be effective

Come at them low: let your balloon try and protect the rest of your ship from shatter

Pop their balloons: if you cant go higher then them, make them go lower.  (also might I add that a good lumberjack can wreck art's line of fire.  Or at least provide a decent counter.)

Coordinate with your team: I realize this wont be possible in every match

Prepare for it:  If you love flying Brawly and your facing an all art Junker, be willing to have long range guns in your back pocket, because at some point you may need them.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on December 11, 2013, 05:22:59 pm
Countering it really depends on your situation. It basically follows any approach for long range targets. First I'd recommend bringing hydrogen and moonshine (or kerosene).

The most difficult situation is where you have no cloud or terrain cover to dodge spots and shots alike, let alone close distance. You have a few options.

Not the most ideal solution, but if you can't raise or lower you ship enough, it'll work in a pinch. Try to bob up and down a bit, and keep your front pointed at them. You're going to lose components, but your engines should be safe. Rebuild your components to just before fixed. Use moonshine to help close the gap, as they're likely using kerosene to keep distance. Once you get in close, do the last fixing after their volley and dig into them. You're going to take a lot of hits, but if your engineers stay on top of things you have a decent chance.


This only works when the distance between you and them isn't all that much. If you're far away, they can usually aim high enough to hit your for a while. Since the arties can't aim up, use this time to destroy their balloon. If it's a junker (and it probably its), it should be an easy target. Then just walk them down, continuing to pop their balloon. You can use this time to try and maneuver to their blind spot and sink down to do some real damage with other weapons on your ship.


This is actually my preferred method. You usually want a ship that has pretty good balloon cover, like another junker, a goldfish or squid. With a pyra, you'll be taking hull damage, where the galleon and spire balloons don't really provide cover from the front. The mobula for obvious reasons. As you come in low, use some moonshine or kero for speed. As you close the distance they'll have to start lowering themselves to keep the shots up. Your balloon should be soaking up most of it. When you get close enough, activate that hydrogen and sail above them, raining down damage, popping their balloon, whatever. On the change that they also hydrogen and keep pace with you, still shoot them, you're now in close range and their gunners should have a tougher time hitting your components with the rapid up and down changes.
[/list]




For going specifically against a junker with triple artemis, I'd recommend the following ships:

Spire: lumberjack, artemis, field gun, other (maybe a close range gun or a flare. Possibly another artemis if you feel like making it weird). The junker is 90% balloon and 8% dreams. This makes your lumberjack (destroyer of balloons and dreams both) super effective. You just need a good shot on it. You can use the field gun and arty to reduce their disable damage, and once they start sinking things get easier.

Pyramidion: Either a gat/mortar or artemis/field gun. You could even mix it up with a hades/flak. The artemis/field gun is the perfect anti-sniper. What you're doing is applying disable on top of piercing and explosive. The front guns on the pyra are trickier to take out than most ships. You can also power them down with the hades/flak, which will also likely pop their balloon. Then you can use one of the methods above to get in close for the gat/mortar. The big advantage is the forward facing (slim profile) guns that are harder to hit.

Goldfish: Carronade and maybe some flamerthrowers or mortar on the sides. Approach flying in low to soak up shots, you have a decent balloon and your rear engine is hard to hit even if they wanted to. Once you start popping you can use your side guns to help shoot downward to give them more problems, and probably finish them with the mortar once their armor breaks, since they're mostly busy fixing the balloon.


I can't give much junker advice, it's not my area of proficiency. Galleon tends to have too much broadside, you're a crazy easy target for their disables. Squid can work great, but your engines are easy targets and your only lifeline. Once they're down, your slim armor won't last long. Mobula might be a good option, but that's not my area of proficiency either. Although the spread out guns and rear engines make it difficult to disable the whole ship.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on December 11, 2013, 05:32:30 pm
The counter strategies to Artemis spam require a level of skill that many newbies don't have. I miss the days of meta gat/morter and even meta gat/flack. Back then your opponents would feel like they accomplished something by getting a few hits in before you crushed them.  The only thing worse than getting crushed 5-0 is getting crushed 5-0 and not landing a single shot on your opponent.

As for counter strategies:
Thomas covered most of them except the junker and mobula. In those cases you have to take all Artemis and hope your crew are better shots than the enemy. A mobula can outgun a junker with Artemis spam since it can put an extra artemis on target and it is very hard to hit two weapon points with one shot. Mobulas don't work so well when things get brawly which is why junkers tend to be preferred for the Artemis strategy.

Also a galleon charged could counter this strategy if your crew is good enough.  The trick would be to take all close range guns, accept they are going to be disabled, have your engies rebuild them to one hit away from fixed, and wait until you are point blank to last hit and unload.

All these things require a level of skill and understanding of the game that most newbie Artemis victims can't pull off. So on a whole I think the Artemis meta is bad for the game.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Alistair MacBain on December 11, 2013, 06:00:32 pm
Most tactics with ships are already explained ...
Just want to add mobula to it.
You can either run a closerange setup with double gat and mortar paired with two artemis to cover your engage.
The Artemis will disable their artemis till you are close and when you are close your double gat + greased mortar will kill them pretty much instantly.
Other option is to go double artemis with a merc and just outdmg them on the permahull.
You could also use lesmok artemis on this and just snipe them from outside their range.
Your merc already has the higher range and if you go lesmok artemis you will just outsnipe them.
They will most likely bring the standard burst artemis for maximized disable ...
Your lower deck will probably be a normal gat mortar or anything else thats closerange.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: ramjamslam on December 11, 2013, 06:00:59 pm
A couple of things

1. This topic is misleading, I actually came in here because I thought you meant that the games art is boring!  What!!  Far from it!

2. in response to

Quote from: Chango on December 11, 2013, 04:00:40 pm
I dub the artemis as the noobtube. I tend to use them if I have a very low level crew. So if your Captain is flying a 3 artemis junker, it's because he thinks you are a bunch of noobs!

I disagree as I find trying to captain any ship with a trifecta with low level crew to be a crew management nightmare between trying to get the gunner on the bottom deck of the junker to getting the engineer to stop hitting the engines when they are at 90% health and go shoot.  I would much rather take a ship like the goldfish with only 1 gun for teaching crew.

Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on December 11, 2013, 06:14:45 pm
I like the trifecta Art junker for noob training, it leads to low stress engagements where a missed mallet/spanner timing will not doom your ship. Forcing two members of your crew to only repair is not a good way to introduce new players to how this game works.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Alistair MacBain on December 11, 2013, 06:16:19 pm
A triple Artemis Junker can be as hard to fly as a sniper Galleon or a gat mortar pyramidion.
Sure the skill minimum to be effective on a gat mortar pyra or a artemis junker is lower as on a sniper galleon but the skill it takes to perform exceptional is as high as any other build.
You can always maximize your abilities if you have a competent crew on it.

A Artemis Junker on competetive level is a really hard job for the crew.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on December 11, 2013, 06:27:23 pm
Everything at a competitive level is really hard. A triple art junker requires less crew skill at PUG levels than many other builds, especially since your victim will not be shooting back. It does require come captain skill, especially when things get dicey. When I fly for the purpose of turning a bunch of newbies into a force to be reckoned with I like to use the Artie Junker. It has one of the lowest crew skill in to damage out ratios in the game.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on December 12, 2013, 09:21:39 pm
Tri art junker is one of thosepug builds like gat mortar, as opposed to practicaly anything involving Spire or Mobula, witch you need a practiced team for. And it is boring as is gat mortar. Artemis is easier to shoot than scyla or hades.

Edit: i've removed hadees banshee- that is actualy a lot of fun build.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Piemanlives on December 12, 2013, 09:38:01 pm
If I decide I'm going to charge an Art/Howitzer build I like having someone on my front gun which is on average either a howitzer or an Artemis, I myself typically fly a brawler junker but having that one long range weapon is good in a pinch, the Artemis also has a good arc so good luck getting out of it if the enemy crew is well coordinated, as stated before, flying above the Artemis is a good idea to stay out of arc, knowing where weapons are placed is a good lobby strategy, that way you can figure out how to approach them, sure they can maneuver but you should also be maneuvering to counter them.
Title: Clouds
Post by: The Sky Wolf on December 13, 2013, 09:42:55 am
Remember to use these...

(http://blogs.ca.com/cloud/wp-content/uploads/sites/71/atmosphere-clouds.jpg)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: GeoRmr on December 13, 2013, 11:29:19 am
Quote from: Grey-Wolf Jack on December 13, 2013, 09:42:55 am
Remember to use these...

(http://blogs.ca.com/cloud/wp-content/uploads/sites/71/atmosphere-clouds.jpg)

You know, I really think this game is lacking in clouds, hopefully a dev will read this and add a few more. Especially in canyon, your ship is just so exposed with those rock monoliths on every side. One time I flew through there and could see nearly 5 whole meters ahead of my ship!
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sylas Firehammer on December 13, 2013, 11:30:15 am
That's a big thing that Jack mentions. Clouds are an easy way to descend upon your enemies if they don't use flares properly!
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Skrimskraw on December 13, 2013, 12:18:15 pm
I agree with this. the double junker artemis setup is very very strong and possibly on the overpowered side of the scale.

However there are ways to counter it, also you shouldn't see it as boring for your team. Part of this game is to continuesly fail in trying to beat something that you have trouble with. Keep trying and trying thats the only way to break it. find flaws in your enemies.
some examples are whats your enemy's altitude? can you approach from above? can you approach from below?
Can you use the terrain to your advantage?
Can you effectively tank 2 enemies while your ally kills them?

take this into consideration improve your piloting skills, have faith in your crew and work around their disadvantage like bad at long ronge but very able in close combat and repair situation.

Some setups require you to be very durable / mobile while other setups requires you to go in and hit hard.


This said I agree playing on the artemis ship is possibly the most boring thing I have tried to crew and pilot on, but some players enjoy it so they should be allowed to do it.
If you ask the lobby nicely maybe they will change their loadouts.

Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on December 13, 2013, 12:40:27 pm
Quote from: Skrimskraw on December 13, 2013, 12:18:15 pm
I agree with this. the double junker artemis setup is very very strong and possibly on the overpowered side of the scale.

However there are ways to counter it, also you shouldn't see it as boring for your team. Part of this game is to continuesly fail in trying to beat something that you have trouble with. Keep trying and trying thats the only way to break it. find flaws in your enemies.
some examples are whats your enemy's altitude? can you approach from above? can you approach from below?
Can you use the terrain to your advantage?
Can you effectively tank 2 enemies while your ally kills them?

take this into consideration improve your piloting skills, have faith in your crew and work around their disadvantage like bad at long ronge but very able in close combat and repair situation.

Some setups require you to be very durable / mobile while other setups requires you to go in and hit hard.


This said I agree playing on the artemis ship is possibly the most boring thing I have tried to crew and pilot on, but some players enjoy it so they should be allowed to do it.
If you ask the lobby nicely maybe they will change their loadouts.

I find flying on artemis junkers pretty fun tbh.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 17, 2013, 05:20:53 pm
Quote from: Mithron on December 11, 2013, 01:09:19 pm
I know there's a huge 8 page long thread on the Art, but I'm really disappointed in seeing it wasn't nerfed/changed in this recent patch. I loved this game the first week I discovered it: noobs everywhere, tons of crazy ship and weapon combinations and learning the game was awesome. There were tons of low ranks to play with and so many different strategies to discover and learn with. Now I log in to nothing but rank 10+ clan tryhards in the only 4 games available and they're all using Art metas. It's so boring. I've played this game for less than a week and I'm already bored and tired of it. During peak hours, it's not much different. Maybe 8 games available with clan stacking everywhere.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Mithron, you are the reason I made that thread. I knew this Art spamming was having an effect on people new to the game and its a negative one.

There is a lot of counters but at the same time some maps and ships make them not very viable. Heck I took a Squid against an Artmobby last night. Granted my crew was rubbish but it should have had the speed and capability to counter the mobby. On the other hand, the mobby stayed at altitude often. It knew the weaknesses of the arts. It also set up in a location which favored a view from all sides. Downed him twice but at the cost of my ally dying about 4x. But just could not approach without Ally being a meatshield as you just can't climb to get over arcs with a vessel that is at ceiling. Also with the Squid being as piss poor as it is now. Add in an inept crew into the mix and you just get a recipe for fail.

That is a factor a lot of these guys who hump their arts forget is, yeah there is counters but getting those counters to work in pug matches is another thing entirely. When you have crappy crews, moronic allies, and generally players who make AI's look godlike...all the talk of counters in the world does nothing.

This in turn degrades the enjoyment of the game. Muse has been testing some Art changes and from what I've heard they are just what I was hoping to avoid. Turning the Art into a waste of a gun mount instead of just slight tuning to make it not as OP.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on December 17, 2013, 05:46:24 pm
It's true that there are some maps and situations where countering is just not going to happen. Dunes, fjords, and some of the 3v3 and 4v4 maps are a lot more open. I know there's a few alternate approaches on dunes and fjords, especially if you use the cloud cover. But all that fancy flying can't get you close enough to them before they spot you, especially if they predict you're going to try it.

Then it's just them backpedaling, taking out your engines, and slowly working your ship down.


You can't outrun the gun, it has the second fastest projectile speed of all the light guns (third overall if you include the heavy carronade). No recoil, -massive- turning arcs, and a long range make it difficult for even an absolutely new person to miss. What Muse and most of us have noticed is that it lacks the risk vs reward that Muse tries to shoot for.

But the balance is a constant up and down. We can certainly hope that the tweaks that are made put it into that perfect balance, but what sounds and looks good on paper could be totally different in practice. Then it's back to the drawing board to try again. It's just how these things work.

**Edit: Also the squid is an amazing ship. >=P Good day sir!
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 17, 2013, 05:47:08 pm
^^ Eric at the helm, probably true. Oh well, one day he says balance is great, don't wanna touch anything, next time it's a heavy nerf. Nothing in between with that guy. That's alright, Gents can at least go back to using lumberjacks and heavy flaks again...until those get nerfed.

BTW gilder, Zuka has been running a squid (it's tied as best ship with junker imo) against my arti build and it's really tough to beat. I'm a huge advocate of the squid but he barely has flown it before and he was still handing me my ass.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sylas Firehammer on December 17, 2013, 05:48:30 pm
That's the only complaint about the patches in this game I could have, Gilder. Instead of moderation in the tweaks in the game, they frequently radicalize a patch. A little OP? Better make it unusable. Not used frequently? Better make it SUPER OP! I really hope this isn't the case if the Artemis gets tweaked.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on December 17, 2013, 06:09:37 pm
Well if/when the changes occur, they'll be up for testing and criticism in the Dev App, which is a better place for making suggested changes (especially while it's due for a change). One thing to remember is to try and remain (or at least appear) unbiased and neutral. Heavily biased opinions usually aren't constructive and easily ignored. Try not to get become too invested in the change you want to see happen, and allow for some other options. If all you do is push for the gun to be exactly as you envision it, it's not going to be seen as constructive.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 18, 2013, 03:38:19 am
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on December 17, 2013, 05:47:08 pm
^^ Eric at the helm, probably true. Oh well, one day he says balance is great, don't wanna touch anything, next time it's a heavy nerf. Nothing in between with that guy. That's alright, Gents can at least go back to using lumberjacks and heavy flaks again...until those get nerfed.

BTW gilder, Zuka has been running a squid (it's tied as best ship with junker imo) against my arti build and it's really tough to beat. I'm a huge advocate of the squid but he barely has flown it before and he was still handing me my ass.

What build? Carronade/Art?

I hate those disably builds. I feel dirty when I fly a disabler squid after mastering attack squid. Its boring, its uninspired, and it isn't real squid flying. All you do is maneuver into place and grind on an enemy. Theres no finesse or skill involved. I won't stop fighting for a return of the old squid. If I lived in NY I'd seriously consider standing outside Muse with a picketing sign. At least for one day. Love to be someone with 10k that could just drop by and say "heres 10k, now fix that ship."
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 18, 2013, 05:01:39 am
In the Gents we take carro/flamer, do a charge with the carro going, ram their balloon at full speed, and then sit on them with flamer for a teabag kill :D
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 19, 2013, 12:50:08 am
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on December 18, 2013, 05:01:39 am
In the Gents we take carro/flamer, do a charge with the carro going, ram their balloon at full speed, and then sit on them with flamer for a teabag kill :D

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1476001/al-bundy-crashes-ibm-pc-o.gif)
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 19, 2013, 02:22:08 am
Love of God Gilder. The squid is in a good place right now for everyone except you. 
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 19, 2013, 04:05:25 am
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on December 19, 2013, 02:22:08 am
Love of God Gilder. The squid is in a good place right now for everyone except you. 

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1169871/dramatic-gun-cock-o.gif)

Everyone being those who joined post 1.1 then yeah...and they can all eat a mine for all I care. I'll stop mining and forcing teams to rage quit when Muse finally gives me my baby back.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on December 19, 2013, 04:46:50 am
Try to keep this on topic, you can start a new thread about the state of the squid if you need to.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Coldcurse on December 19, 2013, 05:13:24 am
Quote from: Thomas on December 19, 2013, 04:46:50 am
Try to keep this on topic, you can start a new thread about the state of the squid if you need to.
i think combining a squid with artemisses could be considerd highly lethal.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Echoez on December 19, 2013, 10:38:28 am
Quote from: Captain Coldcurse on December 19, 2013, 05:13:24 am
Quote from: Thomas on December 19, 2013, 04:46:50 am
Try to keep this on topic, you can start a new thread about the state of the squid if you need to.
i think combining a squid with artemisses could be considerd highly lethal.

I remember we did a double Artemis Squid with Cullen once with me and Chrinus on the guns. Then again if you wanna do spam disablers, you might as well go with the Junker and get 3 of them.
Title: Clouds
Post by: The Sky Wolf on December 21, 2013, 08:17:56 pm
(http://blog.napc.com/Portals/10319/images/clouds.jpg)

Pyra + Mortar + Gatling + Clouds = OPer
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: The Sky Wolf on December 21, 2013, 10:15:06 pm
The best way to counter a sniper on an open map like Fjord if there isn't enough constant cloud over is to wait for them to come closer while you hide behind a large protruding ice formation or a wrecked ship.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: The Sky Wolf on December 21, 2013, 10:16:02 pm
Force the sniper to come to you.. or at least get them inside a cloud and then charge the cloud.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Moriarty on January 08, 2014, 01:15:32 pm
ITT Art OP QED.

I'm a god damn poet.

 
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on January 08, 2014, 01:53:09 pm
I have been using a pyramidion with 2x front mounted Mercurys as a counter Artemis heavy ships with decent results. I have a gat morter on the side. For crew I ask for two standard engies with charged rounds, and a buff engie with lesmok.

Here are the pros a Mercury Pyra has over a Artemis Junker.
Unlike the junker it is a pretty quick run between the guns allowing a buff engie to keep both merc's buffed. When combined with charged rounds the damage output gets pretty fierce. Since the mercs have longer range than the Artemis and the junker can' strait run at a target and shoot all 3 of its guns the pyra can kite for most of the engagement. The beak of the Pyra absorbs some of the near misses from the Artemis preventing the gun lock down the 3x Artemis is famous for. The captain can maintain the hull while the rest of the crew is shooting. An engineer can be spared to fix the ship with out a significant drop in DPS. You can strip a target's hull armor from a very long range allowing for your ship to effect a fight immediately after a respawn. At close range ramming a ship after the mercs strip the hull is very effective.

The cons of this build are:
The merc requires a bit more gunner skill than the Artemis to use effectively, especially when you are outside of Artemis range. The fat pyra hull is an easier target than the skinny junker hull. If you ally did not coordinate for a long range build they may feel betrayed as you hang back and snipe. It takes a while to make a kill solo, and this build can't 2v1 very well. The merc's pitch limits and the Pyra's slow climb/decend rate prevent this ship from fighting up close against a captain who know how to use hydrogen/chute vent.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Puppy Fur on January 08, 2014, 03:24:25 pm
I'm about in the same situation I was with cannonades. I can't play the game without using Artemis.. Once again a weapon was buffed when no one thought it needed a buff. I don't wish to play the game this way. (Taking a break from playing. I'll watch global chat every so often since I'm CA.)

Edit: As you guys probably know I use many different types of ships successfully. The best ships I fight and use all have an Artemis on it. The best ships I see fight others in matches that aren't mine have an Artemis on their ship. It feels like the situation is just like the Carronade situation was except people are making a lot of excuses to keep using them this time around...
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Phil on January 08, 2014, 05:25:22 pm
I personally use the artimis as a defensive weapon, for squishy ships like the mobula or spire you need to be able to disable enemy weapons or you will be taken out quickly. While there are carronades and banshees to also use as disables, people can still keep shooting at you and fix their balloon or put out weapon fires after they sink you. Fact is, the artimis is the most reliable disabling small weapon in the game that a pilot can equip on their ship. It is easy to use, and very effective, and while you can snipe weapons out just as fine with a carronade or gat, the lag that can occur in a game or the lack of shooting skills from the gunner can make using other weapons to shoot other weapons out unreliable.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on January 08, 2014, 07:01:51 pm
The Artemis ceases to be defensive when more than two launchers are hitting a ship regularly. At that rate the hull will go down faster than a mallet can repair it. Shutting down the target's guns and engines is just a bonus on top of a long range hull strip/kill. Other guns need a complementary gun to bring down a ship, the Artemis just needs more Artemis.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 08, 2014, 08:46:03 pm
If you're getting your armor stripped by art alone you are doing something horribly wrong.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Kain Phalanx on January 09, 2014, 05:18:50 am
I've noticed triple art junker can be surprisingly ineffective, though maybe it just depends on the pilot.

However, the rocket speed needs to be reduced.  Everyone is calling it a long range weapon now when I don't think it was originally as evidenced by its great firing arc and its only stock position being on the side of the Pyramidion.  It's supposed to be usable at range, but its supposed to be exponentially harder to do so.  This makes sense because it's an engine disabler, and the only way to escape it would be to get away from it, and that requires engines.

As for what it should be able to do, I don't think it's necessary as a long range disabler because, one, you don't need that often, and two, the Mercury cannon already fills that role.  It's also not needed as a long range explosive because the light flak fills that role and it's more accurate than ever.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on January 09, 2014, 07:12:13 am
I'm sorry, but almost all of that was wrong.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: The Djinn on January 09, 2014, 11:57:41 am
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on January 09, 2014, 07:12:13 am
I'm sorry, but almost all of that was wrong.

I have to agree with Byron there.

The Artemis is clearly intended as a long-range weapon: otherwise it wouldn't have a range of 1300m. If anything gets tweaked it shouldn't be its ability to work at long range, as that's where the guns design (fast rockets for easier sniping, long range, disabling power over raw kill power, etc.) was clearly intended for.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Puppy Fur on January 09, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
In my opinion it doesn't matter how hard it is to use. If it has the power to do a lot morethen other weapons then it's unfair.

Two artemis can kill hull health. The meta build I see right now is hades (extreme hull armor damage) with two artemis (extreme weapon and decent health damage). This gives great long/medium range. On the other side of a Junker gat/mortar. Extreme close range killing. That's the meta ship I'm seeing more and more of. Just tired of it.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Kain Phalanx on January 09, 2014, 08:27:28 pm
I explained my reasoning with facts, so no, "almost all of that was wrong" is incorrect.  I also explained why a primarily short range weapon can still have a long shell life.  This is disputable but you haven't effectively done so.  The rockets seem faster than they used to be and I qualified my statement with "originally".  The speed is also useful for precision's sake as you must aim for components.  "Disabling power over raw kill power" is not particularly a feature of long range guns.  The closest weapon to the artemis is the hwacha, and that's a close range gun.  "Long range disabling" isn't a common feature in many games as it's usually close range where you need protection/to prevent escape and it's not particularly fair or fun.

The artemis has a great firing arc.  Compare to the mercury cannon, a long range weapon.  What's it doing on the side of a pyramidion in conjuction with a mortar if it's for long range?  If you're going to ignore my points, do me a favor and ignore my posts altogether.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Omniraptor on January 10, 2014, 03:43:02 am
Quote from: Puppy Fur on January 09, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
In my opinion it doesn't matter how hard it is to use. If it has the power to do a lot morethen other weapons then it's unfair.

Two artemis can kill hull health. The meta build I see right now is hades (extreme hull armor damage) with two artemis (extreme weapon and decent health damage). This gives great long/medium range. On the other side of a Junker gat/mortar. Extreme close range killing. That's the meta ship I'm seeing more and more of. Just tired of it.

Don't forget that hades also does a very respectable amount of hull damage (1.4x modifier). The counter to this art/hades is a disable-y mobula, lumberjack spire or carronade goldfish. Details here https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2920.msg53678.html#msg53678
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Puppy Fur on January 10, 2014, 01:23:00 pm
Quote from: Omniraptor on January 10, 2014, 03:43:02 am
Quote from: Puppy Fur on January 09, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
In my opinion it doesn't matter how hard it is to use. If it has the power to do a lot morethen other weapons then it's unfair.

Two artemis can kill hull health. The meta build I see right now is hades (extreme hull armor damage) with two artemis (extreme weapon and decent health damage). This gives great long/medium range. On the other side of a Junker gat/mortar. Extreme close range killing. That's the meta ship I'm seeing more and more of. Just tired of it.

Don't forget that hades also does a very respectable amount of hull damage (1.4x modifier). The counter to this art/hades is a disable-y mobula, lumberjack spire or carronade goldfish. Details here https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2920.msg53678.html#msg53678

Spire can die in 10 seconds to hades/duel artemis and mobula is just a downgrade of spire or junker (depending on the build). Goldfish can't do anything with the main weapon being sniped instantly, which is exactly what happens to every goldfish I see. All medium weapons are worthless when an enemy has a merc or artemis.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on January 11, 2014, 12:15:00 pm
In our practices the Gents have found the mobula to be the hard counter to the triple arti junker, which is great because it makes the mobula valuable competitively for once.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Omniraptor on January 11, 2014, 12:39:58 pm
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on January 11, 2014, 12:15:00 pm
In our practices the Gents have found the mobula to be the hard counter to the triple arti junker, which is great because it makes the mobula valuable competitively for once.

That's because the triple-artemis junker is not very good. Double-artemis/hades junker is what all the cool kids are using.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on January 12, 2014, 12:25:35 am
You know you can outmaenuver art hades junker much more easily than triple art? Lower overlap with hades + hades is ahrder to shoot.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Omniraptor on January 12, 2014, 10:16:00 am
Quote from: Mattilald Anguisad on January 12, 2014, 12:25:35 am
You know you can outmaenuver art hades junker much more easily than triple art? Lower overlap with hades + hades is ahrder to shoot.

Did I just hear the words 'junker' and 'outmaneuver' used in the same sentence?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Puppy Fur on January 12, 2014, 02:24:16 pm
Quote from: Omniraptor on January 12, 2014, 10:16:00 am
Quote from: Mattilald Anguisad on January 12, 2014, 12:25:35 am
You know you can outmaenuver art hades junker much more easily than triple art? Lower overlap with hades + hades is ahrder to shoot.

Did I just hear the words 'junker' and 'outmaneuver' used in the same sentence?

Only if you outmaneuver while on the junker.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on January 12, 2014, 08:34:04 pm
Or if captain is the main hull engineer, like what happens(or happened) on triple art sometimes (on competitive no less). Also squid.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: awkm on January 13, 2014, 03:28:09 pm
I'm looking into the Artemis but also not trying to flip the table over.

Balance changes are going to be much slower than they have been since we've come to a very good equilibrium now.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 13, 2014, 03:49:20 pm
I'd recommend skill changes vs damage changes. In terms of damage output the gun is quite balanced. Lowering the speed of the shot (but please with a proportional chell life to not reduce range) might induce a few less complaints yet still give the weapon viability among high tier play.

Im glad there will be no flipping of tables. I will hold you to that.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on January 13, 2014, 03:58:06 pm
Quote from: awkm on January 13, 2014, 03:28:09 pm
I'm looking into the Artemis but also not trying to flip the table over.

Balance changes are going to be much slower than they have been since we've come to a very good equilibrium now.

When you do, load burst, then not burst.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Queso on January 13, 2014, 04:35:56 pm
The one thing I would say defiantly could use looking at, would be the arc on the Artemis. By itself it's never too much of an issue that I would call it broken or OP. It's just when you manage to point 3 of them on an enemy ship as easily as you can now that calls for some concern.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 13, 2014, 04:45:23 pm
The arc is what makes it worthwhile on a Junker. Trifectas should exist.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: The Djinn on January 13, 2014, 05:23:38 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 13, 2014, 04:45:23 pm
The arc is what makes it worthwhile on a Junker. Trifectas should exist.

Hence why I support a lessening of the downward angle, rather than the side angle. You have your trifecta and it is still a very strong one: it just opens the door to more responsive height battles as a means of countering it, rather than the Artemis Junker just hugging the skybox. It also means that a skilled junker pilot who can follow his target's ascent and descent can effectively neutralize this "nerf" by proper flying.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 13, 2014, 06:14:32 pm
You would then run a risk of being very exposed to Lumerjacks shooting straight up from below. I don't think the downward arc is terribly problematic and I feel like those complaining about the gun's alleged OPness aren't seeing that as an issue.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: HamsterIV on January 13, 2014, 07:17:06 pm
The height game is only something you can play at close range. Arty's become dangerous outside the range where sudden altitude adjustments become a viable strategy for avoiding damage. While we are talking about possible fixes, how about a reduction in its AOE or burst round's AOE modification? Having to aim to hit the component you want to disable instead of the part of the ship near the gun you want to disable would allow evasion to be more viable as a counter strategy.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Tropo on January 13, 2014, 07:53:53 pm
i just want to post on here saying that i don't want to see the artmis get nerfed or wrecked seems to be a lot of people acttcking the tpye of play and organail i started using it to beat the gatling mortor combo when there where less players in the game

new players can shoot a artmis to disable a pyra thats about the gat mortor ram me.

also there are so many ways to beat a all artmis or artmis halde junker (high ever high or low, get be hide, hwacha, lumber jack lesmok and out range them, balloon poping, double merc pyra with gat/mort side)

honestly i could go on all day this game is the best i have seen it balanced since i have played it eva and i don't want to see the complains of the game turn it in to a water fight

sorry about spelling
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Dutch Vanya on January 13, 2014, 09:44:17 pm
Yeah i've come to think it isn't much of an issue, definitely not OP. it will always be annoying if an enemy camps a good spot with a slightly advantageous weapon loadout. But i think it just invites people to think about their own ship loadouts, and encourages use of terrain and clouds to defeat your enemy.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on January 13, 2014, 11:17:57 pm
As I allready pointed out, I'd slightly decrease downward angle by 5° increase upward angle by 5° decrease gun's turning speed and decrease horizontal arcs, but not enough to elimiate a trifecta on a pyramidion and junker. That would force pilots on pyramidion and junker that have trifecta builds be  (even) more active in piloting. Would make it easier for ships at medium and short range dodge out of the trifecta arcs.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 14, 2014, 06:53:34 am
I strongly feel that the downwards arc on the Artemis is fine, however the logical tactic to countering them is to be above your opponent. As it currently is the Artemis upwards arc is too high and at a only a slight distance Artemis are too easily able to hit targets above them. Nerf the upwards arc please.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on January 14, 2014, 07:15:50 am
LoL wut? Vertical arcs are 10° up and 35° down. Upwards is definitively not an issue.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Feast on Thrones on January 14, 2014, 12:22:25 pm
Quote from: GeoRmr on January 14, 2014, 06:53:34 am
I strongly feel that the downwards arc on the Artemis is fine, however the logical tactic to countering them is to be above your opponent. As it currently is the Artemis upwards arc is too high and at a only a slight distance Artemis are too easily able to hit targets above them. Nerf the upwards arc please.

Um No. Mattilald clearly points out your error here. You want to remove more of the 10 degree up arc on the artemis. That is completely silly. Doing that will only hurt merc/arti because you will have to be in exactly the right spot to get the no upwards, but no downwards arcs of each gun respectively.

Honestly upwards arcs on the artemis are so heavily nerfed as they are they don't need to be done any further.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Smollett on January 14, 2014, 06:57:59 pm
I think the comment was due to the fact that an increase in artemis upwards arc is essentially an overall buff to the gun even if turning arcs and downward arcs are reduced.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:37:54 am
Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 14, 2014, 06:57:59 pm
I think the comment was due to the fact that an increase in artemis upwards arc is essentially an overall buff to the gun even if turning arcs and downward arcs are reduced.

Yes Smollett, I still stand by my point however about reducing the 10' arc even more. Recently in a game on dunes a mobula bouncing along the floor was still able to wreck a lumberjack spire I was crewing while we were at the top of the sky limit at only c.1100m distance. 10' is alot, escape from it's upwards arc (the apparently obvious counter) is far harder than you'd expect at longer ranges I encourage you to test this in sandbox. Your point about increased difficulty when using the gun in synergy with the mercury I feel would not be too trouble some if it were reduced to around 6'. I'd predict an increase in incendiary round usage to increase the projectile drop of the mercury.

Another possible nerf would be to make the rockets exempt from the projectile expansion mechanic.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on January 15, 2014, 06:16:37 am
If they were truly at the ground level and another ship was at the sky limit there is no way an artemis can hit that. Something isn't adding up. Maybe it was a merc or two. I think you need to go shoot an artemis and truly see how limited it's upward arc is.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: redria on January 15, 2014, 06:27:54 am
At 1100m, an artemis with 10' upwards arc should have about a 200m upwards range. Add to this the fact that if you start going up even slightly, your ship will tilt backwards, adding another 5-10 degrees to your arc. An artemis can currently easily hit a max height ship from the bottom of the map, especially on dunes where the ceiling is so low.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Byron Cavendish on January 15, 2014, 07:01:39 am
Okay, show me a screenshot or video then. I don't care for mathhammer.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Goldenglade on January 15, 2014, 07:34:09 am
Quote from: redria on January 15, 2014, 06:27:54 am
At 1100m, an artemis with 10' upwards arc should have about a 200m upwards range. Add to this the fact that if you start going up even slightly, your ship will tilt backwards, adding another 5-10 degrees to your arc. An artemis can currently easily hit a max height ship from the bottom of the map, especially on dunes where the ceiling is so low.

this scares me.... a lot o.o
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: redria on January 15, 2014, 08:13:26 am
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on January 15, 2014, 07:01:39 am
Okay, show me a screenshot or video then. I don't care for mathhammer.
I'm not somewhere I can actually get a screenshot or anything, but later tonight I'm sure Geo would be happy to jump in practice with me and set up a screenshot. It's basic trig. 1100*tan(10). Draw a triangle. The farther away your target, the higher they can be in relation to you. At small angles like this, there is a fairly linear relationship between angle and max height achievable. So if we were to halve the max angle of the artemis, it would only be able to hit about 100 meters above itself in our example situation. If a ship could achieve an upwards angle of 10' and an artemis works the same way it currently does, the max height would be around 400m.

Keep in mind that putting lesmok in an artemis makes its range absurdly long. So the 1100 meter distant example Geo gave would be on the close end, where using burst is probably still a viable option (i think... I don't know specific ranges).

-edit- I was going to complain about Dunes, but it doesn't belong here, so I removed it.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Queso on January 15, 2014, 02:41:27 pm
Basic trig basically dictates a hell of a lot of balance in this game. On a long range weapon with little drop, the farther away you are, the less vertical arcs matter.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
Quote from: Byron Cavendish on January 15, 2014, 06:16:37 am
If they were truly at the ground level and another ship was at the sky limit there is no way an artemis can hit that. Something isn't adding up. Maybe it was a merc or two. I think you need to go shoot an artemis and truly see how limited it's upward arc is.

They had a 3 artemis mobula, one was above the helm. after they hit the ground they were able to shoot out the lj on the (slight) bounce up, buying them enough time to stay in the air long enough with the balloon repaired to get all 3 artemis on us. Props to whoever they were, gave us a real tough game which I wasn't expecting from people with only C.30 games under their belt.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 03:48:19 pm
Quote from: redria on January 15, 2014, 08:13:26 am
-edit- I was going to complain about Dunes, but it doesn't belong here, so I removed it.

Haha, that map's sky limit is - questionable.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:22:08 pm
To hit the the top from the absolute bottom is indeed lesmok range.  Situationally it is not too difficult to gain a small amount of altitude at closer range to be effective with burst rounds, when you bounce off the floor for example, or indeed taking into account redria's point about the pitch of the ship tilting backwards when ascending.

Spires altimeter
(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/667957675752552924/29579BFFE48165959EB540874F5246C6F5AF2994/)
Mobulas altimeter
(http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/505828089172482668/1FD63EFB15707D52D05287DBAFDC6D540F727E23/)
Map Distances
(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/505828089172478847/2A6415B028948979FBD99D6051596931C9D196C3/)
Hit marker
(http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/505828089172475848/93F6273B138A0BCE626D8B973DD4ADB7BDC178FC/)
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
That really doesn't strike me as outrageously high especially since you were using Lesmok, an ammo type that will functionally never be used on an artemis.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
That really doesn't strike me as outrageously high especially since you were using Lesmok, an ammo type that will functionally never be used on an artemis.

Lesmok artemis on dunes can be extremely devastating from the southern spawn and is a valid ammo type for the artemis especially if used to counter more artemis sniping ships.

These screen shots are not a representation of actual combat situations where for example I'd expect an artemis pilot to be flying closer to the sky limit rather than the map floor initially, assuming they were then popped by a lumberjack there is an extremely long descent before they manage to loose their arc.

They also do not take into account the fact that your ship would be bouncing slightly higher from the floor that the absolute bottom and would be pitching back due to the captain beginning an ascent.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: ramjamslam on January 15, 2014, 04:35:14 pm
Quote from: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
That really doesn't strike me as outrageously high especially since you were using Lesmok, an ammo type that will functionally never be used on an artemis.

Lesmok artemis on dunes can be extremely devastating from the southern spawn and is a valid ammo type for the artemis. these screen shots do not take into account the fact that your ship would be bouncing slightly higher from the floor that the absolute bottom and would be pitching back due to the captain beginning an ascent.
Sacrilege just won the sunday rumble using double mobulas fully loaded up with lesmok on Battle of the Dunes.  We were able to merc/artemis the Gent's mobula from outside their artemis' range.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:40:04 pm
Quote from: ramjamslam on January 15, 2014, 04:35:14 pm
Quote from: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
That really doesn't strike me as outrageously high especially since you were using Lesmok, an ammo type that will functionally never be used on an artemis.

Lesmok artemis on dunes can be extremely devastating from the southern spawn and is a valid ammo type for the artemis. these screen shots do not take into account the fact that your ship would be bouncing slightly higher from the floor that the absolute bottom and would be pitching back due to the captain beginning an ascent.

Sacrilege just won the sunday rumble using double mobulas fully loaded up with lesmok on Battle of the Dunes.  We were able to merc/artemis the Gent's mobula from outside their artemis' range.

Ducks have some sort of silly cult belief that only one ammo type works for each light gun and that gunners are useless - idk why huehue =P

It's interesting to note that once within lesmok only range for the artemis, projectile expansion has taken effect giving around the same aoe as burst (something I also encourage you test in sandbox) with less ammo but with a faster rate of fire lesmok artemis is not too far behind dps wise either.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:46:38 pm
If you're fighting at a range where you need Lesmok Artemis, you would probably be better suited using Heavy Flaks, Lumberjacks and Mercs. Regardless thats hardly an amazing vertical range and would be difficult shots if you're fighting a moving target or a ship that isn't a spire.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:46:38 pm
If you're fighting at a range where you need Lesmok Artemis, you would probably be better suited using Heavy Flaks, Lumberjacks and Mercs. Regardless thats hardly an amazing vertical range and would be difficult shots if you're fighting a moving target or a ship that isn't a spire.

Lesmok artemis at that range is able to disable lumberjacks right up until they're smacking the floor because the artemis can stay in arc for too long, something that wouldn't be a problem because the lj would be disabled, - that's kind of my point (You'd probably put a mercury on there too for good measure any way)

What's easier to land shots, lesmok artemis from a stationary ship at 1800m or heavy flak from a moving galleon at 1800m?

Also, galleons are bigger targets than spires, even if they do move. Tricky shots, but with projectile expansion not too hard imho. Lj fish for an opponent? If they be weaving and dodging enough for your shots to miss, I can tell you that their gunner is not gonna be hitting you.

Edit: Wait a minute, didn't the whole artemis thing piss off a load of gents (and ducks?) because their lumberjack flak use was all in vain against them?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: ramjamslam on January 15, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
Quote from: ramjamslam on January 15, 2014, 04:35:14 pm
Quote from: GeoRmr on January 15, 2014, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
That really doesn't strike me as outrageously high especially since you were using Lesmok, an ammo type that will functionally never be used on an artemis.

Lesmok artemis on dunes can be extremely devastating from the southern spawn and is a valid ammo type for the artemis. these screen shots do not take into account the fact that your ship would be bouncing slightly higher from the floor that the absolute bottom and would be pitching back due to the captain beginning an ascent.
Sacrilege just won the sunday rumble using double mobulas fully loaded up with lesmok on Battle of the Dunes.  We were able to merc/artemis the Gent's mobula from outside their artemis' range.

also for clarity and historical sake, I will say that I am talking about the final game from sunday rumble 19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7EjTdS29XM
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on January 15, 2014, 05:44:38 pm
The further apart the ships are, the less difference height makes. With normal ammo, the artemis can hit something a little over 190 meters above it at max range (a little over 390 meters above it when using lesmok with the new max range). Since the angle is fixed, the closer you get to the ship, the less vertical distance it can cover.

In a sniping match, range will always trump the turning angle. Even something like a field gun can cover a huge area when the ships are far apart.


When you're up nice and close (400 meters), the bottom of your ship needs to be at least 70 meters above their gun to avoid being hit. Get to 100 meters and you just have to be 18 meters above their gun. Of course you have to keep in mind that things are always more complicated. Ships are volumes, not just points in space. The mobula for instance has it's guns at the top of the ship, not the center or near the bottom, giving them a little vertical boost. Not to mention the height of the spire.

All maps also have varying distances between the floor and ceiling of the map. Terrain factors like hills, valleys, and objects make a difference. Doing some testing I found that from the deck of my ship to about the bottom of the map on dunes was between 450 and 600 meters. Probably a little more and a lot less in other areas on that map.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Crafeksterty on January 16, 2014, 03:25:47 am
Exactly that. Dunes really has an incredible difficulty of fighting snipers. You almost have to go with sniper weapons. Look at that link Ramjam posted + community chat where i say how my loadout didnt help the full map splitt tactic because i had nothing to accomodate the range.

I know this is off topic but i would love to see alot more rubble in the ground. Much like west side of the big towering engine thing but AROUND where the terrain in the middle goes downwards.  Just big enough rubble that can be used as cover.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: awkm on January 16, 2014, 12:22:31 pm
Proposed Artemis tweaks are on dev app.  Looking forward to testing and feedback.  Please remember to keep dev app activity to the dev app forums boards.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 16, 2014, 12:45:53 pm
Awkm, I gotta say, the the balloons you added to the missles that make them arc up after you fire them are really interesting but I am not sure if you needed to added 400 impact damage to the shot. I mean the 60% fire chance seemed like enough.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: ramjamslam on January 16, 2014, 02:29:15 pm
Just in case... I hope everyone can tell that this is all just for laughs and not really going to happen:

Quote from: Sammy B. T. on January 16, 2014, 12:45:53 pm
Awkm, I gotta say, the the balloons you added to the missles that make them arc up after you fire them are really interesting but I am not sure if you needed to added 400 impact damage to the shot. I mean the 60% fire chance seemed like enough.
lol, In the mythical world where this happens though it has totally nerfed the artemis because I can just pop artemis balloons out of the sky with my carronade as they come at me - dropping the artemis bullets to the ground.  Carronade is back to being OP.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Omniraptor on January 16, 2014, 05:09:39 pm
I would be so down for an ammo type that replaces shatter damage with impact damage.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: zlater75@hotmail.com on January 17, 2014, 02:25:05 am
I'm just a stupid gunner but i don't understand issues with the artemis fully. Yes as destroying components and trifecting the hull it can be very annoying on the receiving end, like a carrofish against your balloon if you're captain. But it's also about how it feels in use. There ARE countering moves and options 
I agree with sammy it should not need a radical nerf at all but at most a minute or very slight change in projectile speed as well. It's a rocket after all? I'd like to see flames added like when you shoot gat with incend to the artemis animation. It can shoot long range because it is a long range weapon yes. The rocket won't drop like bullets. I like that the weapons need counterweapons and makes other weapons useful. Like lj and merc against artemisjunker. In a map when a brawler ship or a good squid gets close you don't do much with the artemis side because you don't have time.
I'm afraid if weapons just keep getting mostly nerfed down they won't feel like weapons much more.
And it's fun to challenge yourself as gunner to try take out a specific component or go and smash a artjunker up close or be able on the junker to stay alive while a 360 gets you on the close range weapons while barely being alive and surviving just before the other enemy gets there.
Don't remove satisfaction for gunners in the weapons or make radical changes. Atm i'd like that energy be focused on other things instead like coop tweaks and spawnpoint tweaks on some maps. The more time a weapon gets the better we know exactly what is needed.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: GeoRmr on January 20, 2014, 12:42:47 pm
Quote from: awkm on January 16, 2014, 12:22:31 pm
Proposed Artemis tweaks are on dev app.  Looking forward to testing and feedback.  Please remember to keep dev app activity to the dev app forums boards.

Where is this board?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Thomas on January 20, 2014, 12:51:08 pm
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,45.0.html

I believe you need to have the Dev App to be able to view the board. If you have the Dev App, and can't see the board, you should email feedback@musegames.com or keyvias@musegames.com

If you don't have the dev app, you can use one of the emails above and ask for a key, and also join the Guns of Icarus Online Experimental Crew:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/GoIEC

Where you should be able to get a Dev App key there.

Like Awkm has pointed out, discussions about the changes are to be kept in that section of the forum, as they are still under testing and subject to change.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: redria on January 20, 2014, 01:43:59 pm
For a brief time, I was slightly against the current artemis stats, but honestly the end result is that I agree with the OP, but in a different way than he intends. Art meta is boring, but I find it that way because you have 3 of the same gun, and your counter is going to be the same. You don't get any better, and it honestly isn't that challenging to go up against. Pop a balloon and get directly above the artemis ship and you can 2v1 pretty effectively.
Realistically, 3 of the same gun will never be as effective as a mix of guns. I fear double artemis-hades significantly more. You suddenly get upwards arcs, armor piercing, balloon damage, fire, etc.

I don't think artemis are overpowered. Overused? Certainly. But stick a bunch of artemi together and its sorta boring and easy to counter. You are only ever thinking up strategies to counter one build.

Now mine launcher-carronade on either side of a junker. That is terrifying.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: redria on January 20, 2014, 03:15:56 pm
Erm... Apologies. I read through a little of the other artemis thread. There is already a lot of discussion on how to counter effectively etc. Don't really need to continue that discussion (with me at least). We will just have to see what happens in the next update.  :)
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: awkm on January 24, 2014, 12:55:01 pm
Those interested in testing Artemis proposed changes.  There are a series of blind tests (super duper scientific stuff) on dev app.  I encourage everyone to get into dev app (ask keyvias@musegames.com for access) and get testing and post their feedback.

Thanks
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on January 27, 2014, 05:05:30 pm
glad to see everything is just as I left it;  "you want to counter long range? well then bring long range duh..."  back to leaving it...
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on January 27, 2014, 05:10:55 pm
We 5-0ed the Gents on Dunes by charging their two triple art Junkers last Saturday.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Frogger on January 27, 2014, 05:24:33 pm
Quote from: -Mad Maverick- on January 27, 2014, 05:05:30 pm
glad to see everything is just as I left it;  "you want to counter long range? well then bring long range duh..."  back to leaving it...

Aw, c'mon Mav. It's really not like that. And I don't think it ever was, honestly. Like Sammy said, just two days ago we solidly defeated one of the toughest long range teams in the game with coordinated rushing. And rushing is how the RAFT beat the Paddling, whom many regard as the unparalleled long range team of GoIO.

It all hinges on the details - ships, builds, map awareness, timing, gun & repair discipline.

Get back in the game already! You've been gone too long :)

---

Addendum: I will agree with you a little, actually - from between 1.3.2 to the 1.3.3 hotfix, close range was seriously hamstrung by the overly nerfed gat. The 1.3.3 hotfix fixed that, however.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on January 27, 2014, 05:29:58 pm
I've seen and I still don't know how exactly how that happened XD

Addendum: hades still deals more damage than gat - it will be absolutely op if some speciffic ammo types come into game (not at liberty to discuss into further details).
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Smollett on January 27, 2014, 11:22:08 pm
Actually hades does not deal more damage to armor than gat. Gat has a much higher armor DPs and though it lacks fire it has the ability to knock out guns and engines.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Frogger on January 27, 2014, 11:37:32 pm
Smollett is correct. To corroborate, the hades will yield a DPS of 68.86 over 10 clips, while the gatling yields 76.34.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Omniraptor on January 28, 2014, 11:43:00 am
Wait, doesn't the gat do something like 17-ish damage per shot?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Imagine on January 28, 2014, 04:11:47 pm
Nothing against the teams, but after watching and attempting to commentate on four and a half hours of the gents pewpewing artemis, I'm ready for something new. Patch can't come fast enough.
Title: Re: Art meat is bong
Post by: The Sky Wolf on January 29, 2014, 05:42:37 pm
Quote from: Omniraptor on January 28, 2014, 11:43:00 am
Wait, doesn't the gat do something like 17-ish damage per shot?

Muse said they nerfed the gating gun to go from 10 dmg per shot to 7.5 dmg like 2 updates ago, and then I think cut it's range in half (cries). Still though, get up close with greased rounds loaded and quickly fire 80 rounds into their hull which does around 600 damage, which is about the HP of the armor on most ships. Firing an entire Gatling clip takes about 8 seconds + if you have mortar on standby that fires when the armor is down its about 5 seconds until they die - if the enemy doesn't have any engineers on the hull then the Gat-Mortar combo can kill most ships in about 13 seconds.. or possibly less.

So the nerfing didn't make it UP atoll.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Smollett on January 29, 2014, 09:56:12 pm
The Gattling does 7.5 piercing damage and 10 shatter damage per shot.  With proper modifiers applied it deals 13.25 damage per shot.

Hitting a full 80 shot clip into an enemy deals a whopping 1060 armor damage.  Just enough to break the armor of any ship in the game even if it's been repaired with a mallet.  Buffs, spanner nursing, explosive assists, focus fire and other high level techniques change the equation but it's essentially a guaranteed armor break if close enough to the enemy.
Title: Art meta is boring
Post by: The Sky Wolf on February 02, 2014, 01:33:29 am
Art meta is boring
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Mithron on February 03, 2014, 01:20:52 pm
I told you all it was boring, OP and needed nerfs. I was right and you were wrong.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Wundsalz on February 15, 2014, 04:10:01 am
Art meta is still boring.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Spud Nick on February 15, 2014, 05:11:37 am
All meta builds are boring.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 15, 2014, 08:25:35 am
I'm honestly seeing less of the trip art and I feel more able to dodge arts.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Phil on February 16, 2014, 12:04:51 am
Still too strong vs. heavy guns, especially the gallon's, personally, the gun can just vanish and I would not even care.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Wundsalz on February 16, 2014, 04:08:03 am
Quote from: Captain Phil on February 16, 2014, 12:04:51 am
Still too strong vs. heavy guns, especially the gallon's, personally, the gun can just vanish and I would not even care.
And goldfishes and squids, which are both very vulnerable to art bi- and trifectas.
Quite some currently underused ships would benefit from a serious artemis nerf.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Wundsalz on March 22, 2014, 05:53:36 am
The Artemis to be out of balance and needs to be changed. Lets keep this thread on the front page.
Focused Artmisfire, which is easy to establish due to the guns insane arcs, is just too powerful against ships which are vulnerable to disable-builds - those with heavy weapons in particular. E.g. I think the Artemis alone is one of the major reasons why we see rather few goldfishes lately.
Due to its decent explosive damage, the gun also contributes a lot to the recent shift to sniper heavy builds. Which I personally dislike.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Alistair MacBain on March 22, 2014, 07:52:26 am
I like the current state of the Artemis.
Its quite hard to effectivly snipe an enemy on long ranges and hard to keep in arc once the enemy gets close.
The issue is not its low explosive damage which is more a nice to have than a go to reason.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Spud Nick on March 22, 2014, 08:42:06 am
I agree with Alistair.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 22, 2014, 10:51:17 am
There was some talk about possibly increasing heavy weapons gun health and keeping their rebuild time the same.  It seemed like it could help ships like the goldfish, definitely it's something I'd love to test.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: Spud Nick on March 22, 2014, 11:14:08 am
How many Artemis shots does it take to brake a heavy gun? Two with burst ammo?
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: redria on March 22, 2014, 11:26:46 am
Quote from: Spud Nick on March 22, 2014, 11:14:08 am
How many Artemis shots does it take to brake a heavy gun? Two with burst ammo?
I don't have that answer, but burst ammo doesn't affect damage output, only clip size and blast radius. 2 shots with burst is the same as 2 shots standard ammo. ^.^
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 22, 2014, 11:31:53 am
Quote from: Spud Nick on March 22, 2014, 11:14:08 am
How many Artemis shots does it take to brake a heavy gun? Two with burst ammo?

Two, though often on AoE it'll be three. They can also sneak a repair in (which is easy enough with the Artemis's slow fire rate), which also makes it three.
Title: Re: Art meta is boring
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on March 27, 2014, 03:59:18 am
but may be next to useless due to the dmg it would still have..