Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Echoez on October 07, 2013, 08:29:38 pm
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So aside from all the carronade crazyness on this forum, I'd like to bring this ship to public attention since it hasn't been discussed after the new patch.
This is not necessarily a 'Spire is broken' thread, even if in my honest opinion I still think it is.
I'm just trying to understand what is the point of it, I mean, I freaking love the looks of it, probably the sole reason I even play the darn thing, but what else about it?
- It's got a massive balloon target
- The hull is also a massive target, big vertical profile means arc'ed guns will have a much easier time landing shots
- Armor is still below average
- I honestly don't feel that 100 extra permahull was a decent 'buff', all it means is that it takes one more Mortar shot to finish you (from the 16 they have, hurr)
- It's still horribly slow which disallows it to easily manuver out of danger's way
- Rams still pretty much one-shot it
- Can't brawl cause it's too weak, can't snipe cause it's so easily outsniped due to its fragile nature, also can't starfe
- 4 decks, components are very spread out
When I look at the Spire, all I see is a beautiful ship riddled with weaknesses and very few saving graces.
All in all, the Spire is an even bigger Goldfish, that trades everything good about the Goldfish (faster armor rebuild, massive permahull health pool, agility and speed, etc etc) except the front gun for a little boost to firepower on the front and slightly faster turn acceleration.
My question is, is it realy worth it outside of the fun factor of just running the ship because I like how it looks?
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-The hell hound spire with a mortar and banshee on top can be a good counter to a blender fish or squid.
-The sniper spire with a mine on top can be a good counter for any ship that charges at you, assuming you have enough room to back up.
It's a very hard ship to fly in any sort of competitive match. Probably the hardest ship to fly.
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-The hell hound spire with a mortar and banshee on top can be a good counter to a blender fish or squid.
-The sniper spire with a mine on top can be a good counter for any ship that charges at you, assuming you have enough room to back up.
It's a very hard ship to fly in any sort of competitive match. Probably the hardest ship to fly.
For the first build, it's a loadout with a very high alpha anyway, but I understand, have tested myself as well, but it's horrible on open maps due to your speed, hence below average in most situations
Second one, well, what makes the Spire a better sniper than a Galleon? Why would I want to bring a Spire instead of a Galleon, that has more firepower and way better durability? Galleon can also starfe which makes its guns harder targets from long range, if need be, the Galleon can seek out cover while keeping guns on enemies, Spire can not, it needs to make a turn for it so in a sniper fight, it's still at a disadvantage, even if it's just a single Mercury pointing at it.
Note that I do not consider "choosing engage distance" a legit argument at this point cause you do so at such a slow pace it doesn't matter anyway, anything can reach you, even Junkers, but you are still too slow to chase anything.
Also, I know it's a very hard ship to fly (picked it very early when I started playing GoI) but nothing justifies that difficulty on the ship so far in my opinion.
I don't see what's so rewarding about playing the Spire, you would expect a ship with so many short comings to have some amazing reward, but seriously I don't feel anything else other than "Oh well I beat you in the hard mode ship" because I could have gone something else and it would have been tons easier and much more rewarding, gameplay experience wise, at least for my crew and that poor main engi that has to be locked in the back of the ship the moment we start taking damage.
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The sniper spire can maintain range better than a galleon and can get arcs onto the target faster. Other than that it has nothing going for it.
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I think the things that separate the Spire and that are helping/hurting it are that it is the medium gun glass cannon (as opposed to the light gun mobula), and it is the forward facing long range (as opposed to the side facing galleon). It also turns quickly (swiveling) as opposed to the galleon.
The spire is just a fairly specific tool. I think it's great for long range where if you need to back up or get out you can without having to lose arc. Less guns than galleon for better *choice* of maneuverability. Not necessarily better, but at least gives you the choice.
It can be great for fighting a squid because it can turn easily if a squid pulls a fly-by.
I think the spire with the flak buff is getting there. Honestly I believe some douche talented captain will "figure out" the spire and start destroying us similar to how the squid has suddenly come into its own. They'll need a teammate probably but they'll be dangerous nonetheless.
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Well, I've gone as far to travel to Muse studios to pitch this to them but the greatest advantage the Spire has is the alpha strike damage potential. My problem with it has always been the very tight trifecta arc making it difficult for the pilot to run over and finish ships with armor down or the delay from an engineer moving from hull to gun taking the extra time to swing the gun..
I've often mused that a more forward facing right gun (not so forward that you could double merc) would make for an overall higher dps from GOI's glass cannon since the gun would have to spend less time being turned forward when mounted and would be in arc more often.
The Spire certainly isn't in jeopardy of being op and though it may not make it the best ship in GOI at the very least I think it'd make the ship even more fun to fly.
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This glass Cannon needs more cannon.
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Being a very intense spire flyer, bringing it to almost every tourney... Trying to make the spire as good as any ship with skill... like i said in an interview it is So... So difficult.
And i agree with this post. The hull is big, baloon is big, it is slow, the weapon placement allow for alot of different builds but because of the spread out i clearly see it is not made to be fun with loadout building.
Incredibly annoying at times to repair and or cordinate in for weapons or repairs.
This ships stats are litteraly below average, and how it fares is bellow the average unless youve got mindgames played in.
I once tought (before the mobula) that the spire was about killing before dying, but that was not the case, the mobula does that better. The only reason the spire is good is the heavy weapon. Having the heavy weapon on front is the only saving grace balance wise for the spire. If that gun was arced, put somewhere else or was another light weapon, it would have a much harder time.
Thanks for making this post for me, i wanted to do so one myself but daeum, im afraid of flamers or wording it out badly.
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This glass Cannon needs more cannon.
or at least double glazing :/ I play spire as a long range disable-kill. and i've taken down quite a few different type of ships. from blenderfish to ramidions.
It's a really hard ship to master. And i have in now way mastered it yet
Echoez im quoting what you've put to help me put my two cents in :)
1. It's got a massive balloon target
2. The hull is also a massive target, big vertical profile means arc'ed guns will have a much easier time landing shots
3. Armor is still below average
4. I honestly don't feel that 100 extra permahull was a decent 'buff', all it means is that it takes one more Mortar shot to finish you (from the 16 they have, hurr)
5. It's still horribly slow which disallows it to easily manuver out of danger's way
6. Rams still pretty much one-shot it
7. Can't brawl cause it's too weak, can't snipe cause it's so easily outsniped due to its fragile nature, also can't starfe
8. 4 decks, components are very spread out
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1. Even though its balloon is massive im sure its Balloon has more HP than the others? not sure if im correct if someone could verify i would love you (stuck at work so can't view ANYTHING :/ )
2. Yeah its hull is very tall but it IS slender. high arc's may have an easy shot if its front facing, but if it were flying a different direction to your gun, left or right, not directly at you, theres a good chance it'll miss.
3. Completely agree with you that its flimsy and the rebuild timer is quite worrying too xD
4. Yeah once the armours down 9/10 times you can get ready to see little bits of your ship falling all over the place.
5. With the spire i see it more of a weapons platform, (like how the galleon decides where the fight is by waiting for them to come to it, The spire waits for enemies to come into its view.
6. I noticed this too, All i can do to counter it is to fly backwards (and gain height) with kerosene and time well with bumpersor if i get high enough flip to full forward and RUUUUUUNN!!!!!
7. Might be fragile but its a glass cannon, getting your shots of first (or at least more accurately breaking their snipes) is key. Hopefully you have an eagle eyed sniper :)
8. GOOD GODS EVERYTHING is spread out :/ if something breaks i can safely assume that while its being rebuilt something else will break due to the distances that the engie needs to run xD
To me it feels as though every ship has one particularly good stat.. such as speed or durability, In my eyes the spire has nothing OUTSTANDING to flaunt around.
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or at least double glazing :/ I play spire as a long range disable-kill. and i've taken down quite a few different type of ships. from blenderfish to ramidions.
It's a really hard ship to master. And i have in now way mastered it yet
Echoez im quoting what you've put to help me put my two cents in :)
1. Even though its balloon is massive im sure its Balloon has more HP than the others? not sure if im correct if someone could verify i would love you (stuck at work so can't view ANYTHING :/ )
2. Yeah its hull is very tall but it IS slender. high arc's may have an easy shot if its front facing, but if it were flying a different direction to your gun, left or right, not directly at you, theres a good chance it'll miss.
3. Completely agree with you that its flimsy and the rebuild timer is quite worrying too xD
4. Yeah once the armours down 9/10 times you can get ready to see little bits of your ship falling all over the place.
5. With the spire i see it more of a weapons platform, (like how the galleon decides where the fight is by waiting for them to come to it, The spire waits for enemies to come into its view.
6. I noticed this too, All i can do to counter it is to fly backwards (and gain height) with kerosene and time well with bumpersor if i get high enough flip to full forward and RUUUUUUNN!!!!!
7. Might be fragile but its a glass cannon, getting your shots of first (or at least more accurately breaking their snipes) is key. Hopefully you have an eagle eyed sniper :)
8. GOOD GODS EVERYTHING is spread out :/ if something breaks i can safely assume that while its being rebuilt something else will break due to the distances that the engie needs to run xD
To me it feels as though every ship has one particularly good stat.. such as speed or durability, In my eyes the spire has nothing OUTSTANDING to flaunt around.
1. nope, and if it had more health it would be a downgrade rather than an upgrade because of how it is allready difficult repairing baloons.
2. It is slender but MASSIVE. Big as galleon almost. Like said, you cant exactly dodge it, and if it where to be shot at sideways its engines would be taken out.
5. It has 2 guns facing forward, 3rd is facing a little forward but more to the side while the 4th is almost useless, compare that to the pyra that has 2 guns facing forward and a ram, galleon; 3 guns facing the left side. The spire is not a weapons platform, the mobula is.
6. When you start running they will catch up to you again, this is where the spire should have advantage, but not so much.
7. No, it is called a glass cannon because it is glassy, the galleon is more cannon and not glassy than the spire. The spire still does not hold its own profile of being glass cannon.
Try and fly the spire versus good players, the thought of glass cannon will not apply. It is too difficult to manage and every ship can have their way with the spire someway or another.
Flying the spire you really need heavy mindgames. The only real strength is the spires ability to go up and down, but guess how it is formed. Vertical. It is quick at going up or down but it is long as hell making it dangerouse to crash down but also near miss almost every ramming ship or arcing shots as your dodging up or down.
And how it is slender does not make up for it because it is slow.
In my oppinion the spire needs quick as hell acceleration. That would be something.
I mean think about it, something slender like the spire can place itself in many good positions, ive done so myself. But it is difficult if the ship wont give feedback to your speed.
If spire has double its acceleration or something, along with kyrosine/moonshine, mindgames will be much more saturated and easier to perform as the spire. Well thats my 2 cents.
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As a Spire fan too, I can vouch for a lot of the feelings here. The buff made a slight difference to survivability but it's still sorely lacking as a sensible option. The possible trifecta is limited to a handful of gun combinations and even then is difficult to achieve and maintain. The lack of speed or responsiveness is a big issue when you consider the size of your balloon and hull, the HP of your hull, and the spread of components across the ship for engineers to fix up. Vertical movement is highly restrictive as well, as Crafeksterty says above, thanks to the height of the ship so you can't escape rams or carronades easily.
One of the things I love about the Spire that isn't usually possible on many of the other ships apart from the Galleon and perhaps the Mobula, is that it's a good ship for pilots who want to help gun. I'll usually bring the Spire to a halt and jump on the starboard or bow gun, fixing up the balloon and tweaking the angle of the ship occasionally. I'd personally like to see any tweaks play to that strength because the space on the top deck is hard to fully man with so many important components on the lower decks that are likely to need fixing.
The Mobula has happily filled the space that I wanted the Spire to fill though, but I'd dearly love to be able to fly it with confidence. What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.
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Try and fly the spire versus good players, the thought of glass cannon will not apply. It is too difficult to manage and every ship can have their way with the spire someway or another.
Flying the spire you really need heavy mindgames. The only real strength is the spires ability to go up and down, but guess how it is formed. Vertical. It is quick at going up or down but it is long as hell making it dangerouse to crash down but also near miss almost every ramming ship or arcing shots as your dodging up or down.
And how it is slender does not make up for it because it is slow.
In my oppinion the spire needs quick as hell acceleration. That would be something.
I mean think about it, something slender like the spire can place itself in many good positions, ive done so myself. But it is difficult if the ship wont give feedback to your speed.
If spire has double its acceleration or something, along with kyrosine/moonshine, mindgames will be much more saturated and easier to perform as the spire. Well thats my 2 cents.
First of all mate, I do fly the spire against good players.
I do use it as a weapons platform and do win. The way i have MY spire 3 guns are able to face forward. I can easily cripple ramming pyras and have had them ram me and survive while they crumble. However i've faced the other end of the sword and been totally destroyed. I've learned from mistakes and believe that what i have is a solid plan for the spire.
The idea of backing away is to still shoot them fella. Not just run away like a hound with its tail between its legs.
'2. It is slender but MASSIVE. Big as galleon almost. Like said, you cant exactly dodge it, and if it where to be shot at sideways its engines would be taken out.' Yes if they had shatter weapons or enough firepower to destroy them, better a turning engine than your gun.
I believe the spire shouldn't be fast. The reason i think its a weapons platform is because of its great turning speed and ability for a forward facing trifecta with a heavy gun included.
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Geggis a HP buff would be lovely but not so sure about a BIG speed boost, I mean look at the bloody thing, it doesn't look like it should go fast xD
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Yeah I'm meaning more acceleration rather than speed so it feels really responsive moving and turning rather than outright fast. I was just thinking some more after posting: the Spire is a sentinel ship so it should be able to stand its ground once it's dug in. Its name, appearance and composition make it the perfect ship for parking up, watching and waiting for the enemy. In this regard I think it could do with being tankier so it's more formidable if allowed to get into a good position. It's going to be inherently more vulnerable as a stationary target (that's also huge!) so the added HP would only help solidfy its role in my opinion, without unbalancing it.
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Totally Agree with you there. It would make it the beast of King of the hill. I've noticed while playing AGAINST spires that they can hold down an open area quite well. It's only when they get closed on quickly or ambushed where the suddenly falter.
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I've often mused that a more forward facing right gun (not so forward that you could double merc) would make for an overall higher dps from GOI's glass cannon since the gun would have to spend less time being turned forward when mounted and would be in arc more often.
The Spire certainly isn't in jeopardy of being op and though it may not make it the best ship in GOI at the very least I think it'd make the ship even more fun to fly.
I personaly believe that the Spire should finally get a proper light gun bi-fecta in its front (Yes even dual Merc should work), you need that power over other ships if you want to be called a Glass cannon and it would make it special in a way since it will be the only ships with 2 light guns and a heavy gun pointed at one direction and give it the much needed 'cannon' that it currently lacks.
Turning that gun further is surely one of the better ways to go about it though withouth changing the current ship's role too much, agreed there.
Thanks for making this post for me, i wanted to do so one myself but daeum, im afraid of flamers or wording it out badly.
I was pretty much expecting a horribly negative responce don't worry, suprised to see people actually share my concerns about the Spire unlike back in 1.2 where there was a massive confusion about it.
To me it feels as though every ship has one particularly good stat.. such as speed or durability, In my eyes the spire has nothing OUTSTANDING to flaunt around.
Exactly, which is why I'm stating my concerns in this thread, the ship has nothing going for it other than "It's made of glass" and that's nothing to be proud of :P
Also to add something, it's weakness to counter-sniping mainly comes to the fact that it's horribly weak to all sniping weapons like the Mercury, Artemis (it's gun is exposed and can't dodge due to lack of starfing, easy target) and the LJ (cause massive balloonz), the problem is, even if you do get the first hits in, your enemy is still most of the times tanky enough to withstand them and then comes the counter-battery fire, god save you cause your health bars will be dropping all over the place.
Coordinating a crew on it is also bonkers crazy. With randoms it's near impossible and when I get to play with people I know or clan mates my first thought is "At least I can run it now" not "Oh now we will pwn cause this ship is amazing if you know you to run it", no, the Galleon is amazing with a very good crew, but can still run even with a mediocre one. The Spire.. well the Spire can't run without a good crew and just barely makes it with one.
Yeah I'm meaning more acceleration rather than speed so it feels really responsive moving and turning rather than outright fast. I was just thinking some more after posting: the Spire is a sentinel ship so it should be able to stand its ground once it's dug in. Its name, appearance and composition make it the perfect ship for parking up, watching and waiting for the enemy. In this regard I think it could do with being tankier so it's more formidable if allowed to get into a good position. It's going to be inherently more vulnerable as a stationary target (that's also huge!) so the added HP would only help solidfy its role in my opinion, without unbalancing it.
This is the second way of which I've though the Spire could be balanced towards, which makes sense cause we all know that role is currently much better carried out by the Mobula, the Spire could be very easily turned into the frontal gun platform version of the Galleon, kinda like how the Pyra and the Junker relate, I just think this might change too much about the ship, but I would be willing to test it.
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...the Spire could be very easily turned into the frontal gun platform version of the Galleon, kinda like how the Pyra and the Junker relate...
I think that's a good comparison too, with the Galleon being the only other ship where the pilot hopping off the helm is viable or even expected behaviour given the proximity of the balloon, the nearest gun and the nature of the ship (in that it's more of a static platform than a super mobile ship so the captain should have more down time than, say, a squid).
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As someone who's got more Spire ram kills that I wish I could start painting them on the Hull of my ship, the ship can be brawled in pretty successfully in certain situational circumstances. I would suggest anyone who thinks otherwise start taking one into the Labyrinth with Impact Bumpers. The big advantage of a Spire ram is that it will not move side to side when you hit something, making it so you can literally control the enemy's movement in extreme close quarters. Plus, once the other ship is broken, scraping against the floors of the capture point, you can run them through with a well timed chute vent/impact bumpers combo. Also it's a great defensive ship, since they're always target #1 in enemy focus fire, you position behind your team mate and burn kerosine in reverse once the engagement starts giving you constant full frontal guns on your enemy while you flee. There are tons of avenues for spire play, but you never see them in competitive play because even with the hull buff they are still the most picked on airship in this scene, even tho in my opinion if any ship needs help it'd be the Mobula.
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As someone who's got more Spire ram kills that I wish I could start painting them on the Hull of my ship, the ship can be brawled in pretty successfully in certain situational circumstances. I would suggest anyone who thinks otherwise start taking one into the Labyrinth with Impact Bumpers. The big advantage of a Spire ram is that it will not move side to side when you hit something, making it so you can literally control the enemy's movement in extreme close quarters. Plus, once the other ship is broken, scraping against the floors of the capture point, you can run them through with a well timed chute vent/impact bumpers combo. Also it's a great defensive ship, since they're always target #1 in enemy focus fire, you position behind your team mate and burn kerosine in reverse once the engagement starts giving you constant full frontal guns on your enemy while you flee. There are tons of avenues for spire play, but you never see them in competitive play because even with the hull buff they are still the most picked on airship in this scene, even tho in my opinion if any ship needs help it'd be the Mobula.
Then you realize that your balloon is out.
I'm honestly apologizing, but if your enemies get rammed by you more often than you get rammed by them then I will be forced to question their performance. I've gotten my fair share of Spire ram kills, with both Chute Vent and just ramming the ship onto them, but that doesn't mean my enemies were actually any good.
It's horrible in competitive games cause people know you can't do much when you are alone, but they will have a much easier time killing you fast enough (unlike a Galleon that can take a beating) after they take care of your ally whom you can't realy protect. They can also simply snipe you and you're done for, around 24 merc shots is all you can take and if they brought Artemises as well, you're screwed. They will also not ram you at all, just sit close enough and kill you, rendering the Bumpers pretty useless IMO (let alone you sacrifice way too much by bringing Bumpers and not something else, it's simply not a sensible choice)
Also you can't control the enemy's movement, most ships that will ram you are mostly heavier than you and they will have Kerozene, that now properly applies angular drag, so they won't be turning much if at all, good luck if they decided to bring Moonshine. Where did you get the idea that it's a good choice to stay close to anything with a Spire anyway? When does this 'control' come in play soon enough to keep you from dying cause I don't see it.
I mean, you are arguing Spire rams right now, come on.
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I think the spire always felt kind of off. While the Spire looks quite tanky it isn't at all. People say it's a glass cannon but I agree with others here stating that it lacks quite some bang for the bucks to justify this title. The easiest option to make the spire more viable might be to make it more tanky - either squidlike, by granting it a lot of structural hull or by granting it a junker like tank behaviour - hard shell soft core.
Currently, unlike other ships, the spire doesn't really have an imprinted role and in most cases there are better picks than a spire setup available to fulfill certain task in your team.
I think that's a good comparison too, with the Galleon being the only other ship where the pilot hopping off the helm is viable or even expected behaviour
I jump off the helm regulary on almost every other ship as well if the situation calls for it.
mobula -> front weapon
junker -> balloon, side guns, (hull), very rarely steering
pyra -> hull
goldfish -> balloon
The only ship where I really don't see a need to ever leave the helm is the squid. Prior to 1.3.2 I used to sit on the hull though in case all our engines had been destroyed. As one can't reach the hull standing on the helm side balloon after the patch, this option isn't viable anymore. Still it might be a viable option to help out with the engine repairs in similar situations now.
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What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.
Wait can we talk about this more? This is actually kind of brilliant. If the bottom left gun got arced forward and the top right gun got arced farther forward the Spire instantly gets more cannon for its glass. In an alpha strike the hull engi takes left gun and the pilot takes right gun making a quadfecta.
Furthermore it would finally give the hull engineer something fun to do without getting too far away from the hull.
This would make the Spire truly a glass cannon, fragile, but very threatening if left alone.
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I don't think that splitting the firing arcs like a V in front of the ship would actually as be beneficial as it looks on paper, besides, that lower gun is a very good place to put a support gun like a Flare, losing the ability to aim back with that due to angling wouldn't be that good and it would have the same problem the current top gun has, VERY limited choices, it's what we are actually trying to solve by just turning the current top deck gun an other 45 degrees to the front to make all guns viable for it.
More viable guns, less awkward 45 degree angling so my second engineer can contribute more and more cannon where it's actually needed. That's an other thing, Tri-fectas should be the standart and EASY thing to do with this ship if it is to be a glass cannon and that means no akward angling required to do it, it's already very hard to run, I don't think you should have to work more than you already have to just to get a tri-fecta on a 'Glass cannon'
Just make both top light guns face forward and you solve so many problems, I personaly would be willing to overlook all of the short comings of this ship if it had 3 guns facing forward, cause it would be actually worth it. Make it be worth it without over-stressing the pilots and crew.
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The spire's real advantage is that it's a combination of light and heavy guns that can still approach or retreat while firing, unlike a galleon. Unlike the goldfish it can compliment damage types. I think the idea of turning the other bottom gun at an angle as well is really interesting. It prevents the spire from being an even better sniping platform, and allows it to take a second role as an aggressive but fragile piece of artillery. It moves into aggressive range only when it needs too, and can retreat effectively as well. Meanwhile the goldfish remains a faster, stronger, support ship.
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The spire's real advantage is that it's a combination of light and heavy guns that can still approach or retreat while firing, unlike a galleon. Unlike the goldfish it can compliment damage types. I think the idea of turning the other bottom gun at an angle as well is really interesting. It prevents the spire from being an even better sniping platform, and allows it to take a second role as an aggressive but fragile piece of artillery. It moves into aggressive range only when it needs too, and can retreat effectively as well. Meanwhile the goldfish remains a faster, stronger, support ship.
Unless it gets a real, defined role in the game, the Spire can't be truly viable. I'd prefer it to become a better sniping platform and actually do something better than other ships than stay this akward pile of scrap it is right now, it's a ship that wants to do everything but inevitably fails at everything.
It's an akward combination of a Galleon and a Goldfish, but sometimes I realy feel the ship itself is screaming "Kill me now" out of depseration. My poor mutant Spire..
Also regarding the "Approach and retreat" especialy the retreat part, that's implying you have the speed to do so, which you don't.
Generaly very defective.
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Here's an idea. All the ships have a faster forward speed than their reverse.
Why not give the Spire faster reverse speed?
It won't be able to use it on an approach because all its guns face forward. So the only benefit would be shooting while retreating. And even then every ship is faster so it would be a very minimal boost.
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The spire doesn't so much retreat as prolong close range battle, sometimes that is all it needs. Piloting a spire is about supporting your gunners and denying your opponent battle on their terms.
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The spire doesn't so much retreat as prolong close range battle, sometimes that is all it needs. Piloting a spire is about supporting your gunners and denying your opponent battle on their terms.
yes.
If you can force the enemies to focus your ally for maybe 6 seconds, you'll quickly realize the potential of a spires damage output.
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If you can force the enemies to focus your ally for maybe 6 seconds, you'll quickly realize the potential of a spires damage output.
I can realize the potential of the Galleon's damage output if my ally can keep the enemies occupied for that long by himself and it will be far more devastating and quicker, plus bonus extra health.
Or I can be in a Mobula and have an amazing result as well and way more dodging ability.
Also you can't force anyone to focus someone they don't care about, you can't FORCE the enemy to focus your ally, they will of course come straight for you and be done with it in less than 6 seconds and then your ally will be alone, so your firepower never came into play in a meaningful matter.
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This thread started as a constructive crucible for ideas and thoughts about the Spire and has somehow devolved into another pedantic argument on our lovely forums of people trying to convince people not wanting to be convinced.
I preferred the former.
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What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.
Wait can we talk about this more? This is actually kind of brilliant. If the bottom left gun got arced forward and the top right gun got arced farther forward the Spire instantly gets more cannon for its glass. In an alpha strike the hull engi takes left gun and the pilot takes right gun making a quadfecta.
Furthermore it would finally give the hull engineer something fun to do without getting too far away from the hull.
This would make the Spire truly a glass cannon, fragile, but very threatening if left alone.
Oh I must have overread this... sounds like a really promising approach. With such a buff the spire could be turned into a truly powerful glas cannon indeed.
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What about sticking the lower port gun at a 45 degree angle too similar to the upper starboard gun? That should open up a trifecta on either side of the ship and make that gun slot more useful. I'd happily see some acceleration and HP buffs too.
Wait can we talk about this more? This is actually kind of brilliant. If the bottom left gun got arced forward and the top right gun got arced farther forward the Spire instantly gets more cannon for its glass. In an alpha strike the hull engi takes left gun and the pilot takes right gun making a quadfecta.
Furthermore it would finally give the hull engineer something fun to do without getting too far away from the hull.
This would make the Spire truly a glass cannon, fragile, but very threatening if left alone.
Oh I must have overread this... sounds like a really promising approach. With such a buff the spire could be turned into a truly powerful glas cannon indeed.
Umm, just to make sure I get it right, is this what you guys are talking about?
(http://i.imgur.com/9x1wKOy.png)
(dem art skillz tho)
If that's it, well, that's pretty awkward for the Heavy gun... considering how narrow their horizontal arc usually is.. but dunno.
EDIT: okay my bad, I kinda missread that, so top Left gun stays the same, top Right gun gets turned even more forward and lower Left gun also gets turned further forward?
That's a lot of guns pointing forward, I thought just turning the top gun all the way to the front would be enough, though that could be interesting. Not sure how I feel about the lower gun being angled to the front, usually that's a flare gun spot, wouldn't it be more convenient for it to have some backwards arc as well?
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A phoenix claw Spire turns fast enough that the pilot should be able to overcome any adversity caused by the guns only pointing in one direction.
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A phoenix claw Spire turns fast enough that the pilot should be able to overcome any adversity caused by the guns only pointing in one direction.
I guess you're right, right now that spot is mostly reserved for Flares due to lack of options, with the angle it could very well be something else as well as keep be a viable flare spot.
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I like the idea of moving the guns on the top and the bottom forward a bit.
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Alright after thinking about it and without wanting to make everything terribly easy:
1. Turn the top right (starboard) gun about 15-20 degrees more towards the front.
2. Turn the middle deck left (port) gun 45 degrees towards the front.
That sound alright?
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Echoez while turning the top right gun to the front may sounds that it'll make it fair but imagine this...
Two mercs + Typhoon. Mercs take out the armour and then a well timed lochnagar /two charged Flak shots... It'd put the spire so high up in peoples esteem that it'd be used as the new Meta xD
It's like a pyra with two light guns facing forward but instead of the ram ability it gets a heavy gun
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My initial idea was to just angle the lower port gun at 45 degrees, keep the front gun facing forwards and keep the upper starboard gun at its current angle. I kind of like the spread this arrangement gives (which fits with the idea of it being a sentinel ship) and it also opens up a few more options (and that lower port gun has been a bugbear for me since the Spire launched). Having said this, I do echo what Echoez said that two awkward trifectas might not be enough to put the 'cannon' in 'glass cannon'. I think angling the starboard gun forwards would be formidable but I like the symmetry of keeping two 45 degree angle guns on either side and the arcs they provide. The best bet for me would be to have the port and starboard guns share the same angles facing outwards so 45/45 or 35/35 (or tweaked perhaps so they're not absolutely symmetrical seeing as their relative positions are different on each side ie. the port gun is close to the hull, the starboard gun is far out). I think Muse would have to experiment with the angles to establish a sweet spot -- although dual mercs sound delicious to me! :-D -- but this tweak could transform the ship without having to make any sweeping changes. I'd still welcome some more acceleration, and having the Spire go backwards as fast as it can go forwards sounds interesting. It's the only ship I can imagine that making sense on really.
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^ Basically what Echoez said.
It would be nice to make Pyra pilots think twice before facing down a Spire.
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My initial idea was to just angle the lower port gun at 45 degrees, keep the front gun facing forwards and keep the upper starboard gun at its current angle. I kind of like the spread this arrangement gives (which fits with the idea of it being a sentinel ship) and it also opens up a few more options (and that lower port gun has been a bugbear for me since the Spire launched). Having said this, I do echo what Echoez said that two awkward trifectas might not be enough to put the 'cannon' in 'glass cannon'. I think angling the starboard gun forwards would be formidable but I like the symmetry of keeping two 45 degree angle guns on either side and the arcs they provide. The best bet for me would be to have the port and starboard guns share the same angles facing outwards so 45/45 or 35/35 (or tweaked perhaps so they're not absolutely symmetrical seeing as their relative positions are different on each side ie. the port gun is close to the hull, the starboard gun is far out). I think Muse would have to experiment with the angles to establish a sweet spot -- although dual mercs sound delicious to me! :-D -- but this tweak could transform the ship without having to make any sweeping changes. I'd still welcome some more acceleration, and having the Spire go backwards as fast as it can go forwards sounds interesting. It's the only ship I can imagine that making sense on really.
If the port matched the starboard, I could have every gun firing :) the artemis can reach forward, It'd make a dual artemis (sides) merc and hwacha a massive troll ship. Everything has shatter on it, Plus piercing and explosives xD
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Yeah that's why the angles would need to be tweaked carefully! I'd be happy to see how the Spire fared with easier trifectas on either side of the ship before venturing into the dark waters of four way fire (with a medium gun)! That could get nasty.
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Nasty would be an understatement. But then again since its so fragile that definatly would earn it the name of glass cannon :) ...Or just have 4 fully forward facing guns. Y'know for those i dont give a damn what ship you're on. YOU GONNA DIEEEEEEE
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Alright after thinking about it and without wanting to make everything terribly easy:
1. Turn the top right (starboard) gun about 15-20 degrees more towards the front.
2. Turn the middle deck left (port) gun 45 degrees towards the front.
That sound alright?
Echoez while turning the top right gun to the front may sounds that it'll make it fair but imagine this...
Two mercs + Typhoon. Mercs take out the armour and then a well timed lochnagar /two charged Flak shots... It'd put the spire so high up in peoples esteem that it'd be used as the new Meta xD
It's like a pyra with two light guns facing forward but instead of the ram ability it gets a heavy gun
Top right, isn't that gun already at 45° off of straight forward? Turning it 20° further would allow dual Merc with 5° overlapping arc as Gambrill said. Turning it just 15° more forward would make the Merc arcs not touch anymore, which would allow the pilot to turn so that one merc can shoot while the other reloads. Pretty please with sugar on top Muse, give me the double merc typhoon meta.
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Having the lower left gun pointing forward is probably the best solution that still requier skill to use.
Dont suggest the upper right gun to be even more forward then, because you allready have good options on your disposal.
If the lower left gun is pointing in same degrees as the upper right, we may potentialy have the spire to be closer to a weapons platform.
Because that the upper right gun isnt exactly facing forward, you are left with few weapons of choice, the lower left as it stands now leave you with VERY little choice.
If we have another slot that leaves us with few rather than VERY little, we will see more options and uses of weapons in combination and etc.
If the lower left gets a buff like that, putting an artemis gun on the lower left and the upper right will bifecta, ultimately Quadfectaing.
For me, then i plan on putting the minelauncher down stairs and the artemis upstairs with the merc. etc etc.
But i fear this may make the spire a wee bit too powerfull. Maybe... i want to test it out.
DO NOT change the upper right, if we get an almost bifecta or bifecta merc, it could ruin alot of things and make the spire a new sniper meta.
The lower right will or may have more synergy with eachother if the lower right is changed, because it is closer, heck it is right below it almost. While the upper right looses some of its bifecta power with its upper right because it is splitt off from it.
Example:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/29c86zr.jpg)
Note: this is not the spires degrees, it is just an example similar to the spires weapons.
I would still put the lower left gun to have 45 degree front, just know that then the lower left is in more synergy to the upper left than the upper right should be in synergy to the upper left.
Even if this is something to put in mind, i still think it is a viable buff because of how the gun on the right is usually used by the captain, or it depends.
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Echoez while turning the top right gun to the front may sounds that it'll make it fair but imagine this...
Two mercs + Typhoon. Mercs take out the armour and then a well timed lochnagar /two charged Flak shots... It'd put the spire so high up in peoples esteem that it'd be used as the new Meta xD
It's like a pyra with two light guns facing forward but instead of the ram ability it gets a heavy gun
You, like most people in this community, seem to over estimate the current 2Merc, the weapon is very hard to hit with now after the projectile speed nerf (it arcs like crazy too) and a 5 degree overlap is VERY easily broken, plus it can't aim down anymore unless very long range, which means the pilot wouldn't be able to use these guns, effectively requiring a second engineer to be up there, which has obvious downsides that I don't feel like explaining. It has its risks and pays off.
With the current arc the Top Right gun has, I can't even put a light Flak there and get a trifecta without the need to turn my ship and if I need to turn my ship to get a Trifecta with ANYTHING that isn't an Artemis/Banshee, then I don't have CHOICES. This is why I want to turn it 20 degrees, so you have all choices, but the most obvious one isn't nearly as easy as you guys make it be. It would finally give the Spire a proper weapon selection for that slot.
By turning the lower Left gun an other 45 degrees forward just gives you one more spot to put Artemis/Banshee on, or possibly mines, but that's all, nothing else overlaps properly. If this ship can't get an easy trifecta with anything but a mercury gun ( still can, but harder to maintain) then I don't see the point of even angling the weapons at all, just let them as they are.
People SHOULD be afraid of the Spire since it's a 'Glass Cannon' and I'm sorry, but the only way to achieve that is to give it the easy arcs, I am not afraid of a ship that is slow, weak and fragile and only points 2 guns to my direction most of the time and if there is a third it's probably an Artemis that I can mostly ignore cause it takes SO long to even turn that thing.
Unless that thing has a comparable firepower to a Galleon then it's not worth anyone's time outside of just playing the 'hardmode' ship. It simply isn't a Glass cannon if its firepower is surpassed so easily by almost anything else.
In my honest opinion of course.
PS: Let's not forget that no matter how much firepower, the tremendous downsides of this ship SHOULD balance it out as it's very weak, slow, a massive target and is STILL very vulnerable to counter-battery fire, you can't stand on your ground (air) with the Spire as easily as you can with a Galleon and just take the hits, remember that.
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I'd like the Spire to be able to put the fear in anyone caught in its sights. When you see one staring you down it should be an 'Are we organised enough to engage this thing head on?' type of situation. Much like finding yourself on the port side of a Galleon. At present it feels like they're kill-bait at worst, and a potentially problematic soft target at best.
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I believe in baby step balancing to see how things go and work from their.
I'd love to see 45 degrees on the lower port side gun and then 15 degrees on starboard side gun just to see how that changed the ship. If it was op as heck you could revert one of the changes and if the ship stunk like a skunk you could turn the starboard side gun all the way forward.
I think the Spire needs a bit of love to be usable by casual players however you always have to be careful not to make it too good so that organized crews can easily dominate with it.
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That is why that lower weapon degree is best solution, in my oppinion.
It does not trade away or add stats, nor does it play with functions, it just makes one slot of the ship more usefull.
But im against turning the upper right one, it is fine. Ive had gattlings, flaks and some other high turning weapons on that slot and it works well, the only thing you have to do is turn your spire just a little left. If the weapon on lower left has the 45degree buff, then you can alternate between using the left gun or the side gun giving the spire more options.
Or you cold quadfecta with 2 artemis 1 merc and a flak. That sounds strong, but being the spire as how it is, it then sounds balanced.
I still want faster acceleration though... that would be fun :( Now that im thinking about it again, that would be great because then the spire would do great at close combat! Aaah. so much to decide upon!
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I find the idea of that quadfecta interesting and this would make spire actually a real cannon though im not sure if that would be to strong cause the spire with it topside guns close to the helm that would allow the pilot to act as a topside gunner ...
But tbh i dont think just adding a usable gun or changing weapon placements/ facing the spire wont become usable. Its just to squishy. A ship just has to get close unload his gat and the hull armor is pretty much down and you can just get 1 mallet hit down. After that the armor is down its just a instadeath for the spire.
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Thats true but i did manage to escape and use positioning in relation to the enemy ships with my own to decrease as much damage as possible, that is why i want acceleration to be drastically increased for the sake of manipulating positions.
With the 45 degree buff you can point 2 gattling, maybe 3 if your close enough. Enough for a hwacha killing blow or a flak killing blow. Making it a ship that could potentially fight versus another ship in terms of health and repairs. It can do this now, but that is too difficult and the 4th gun cannot come to aid.
Here is another potential build for the 45 degree buff.
Like today, i have a merc,Hflak,minelauncher, the 4th gun is a flair.
With the buff, you can have 2 minelauncher on the side, merc and flak.
This is what i mean by "wee bit too powerfull". 2 mines hitting a ship is... devestating.
It is possible to come up with more devestating combinations that could potentially make things abit... discuss heavy. Maybe, i would gladly have a ship that can shoot 2 mines and have heavy gun with a light gun, but in a way that does not feel like it is the answer.
The 45 degree buff is awesome but, it is also too simple and perhaps just boring. The more i think about it, the more problems i see, but ofc more firepower.
I remember there was a squid suggestion where the middle gun would aim more forward. It starts to feel the same with this.
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I remember there was a squid suggestion where the middle gun would aim more forward. It starts to feel the same with this.
Yeah but let's not forget that angling the gun of the Squid isn't something that would benefit the ship, just make a bi-fecta easier and that is simply not the purpose of the Squid, it doesn't need a better focus fire from 2 guns because firepower is not its purpose.
On a Spire it makes sense though since as a Glass cannon - Weapon's Plat you want as many guns pointed at the same direction as possible, hence why it's a reasonable request for this ship. It's not the same deal.
I believe in baby step balancing to see how things go and work from their.
I'd love to see 45 degrees on the lower port side gun and then 15 degrees on starboard side gun just to see how that changed the ship. If it was op as heck you could revert one of the changes and if the ship stunk like a skunk you could turn the starboard side gun all the way forward.
I think the Spire needs a bit of love to be usable by casual players however you always have to be careful not to make it too good so that organized crews can easily dominate with it.
Agreed, this would at least make weapons like the light Flak better suited for that Right Starboard gun on the top deck, also a Flak Spire could better utilize a Merc/Magma combo like this (since people frown upon the Merc/Merc)
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On a Spire it makes sense though since as a Glass cannon - Weapon's Plat you want as many guns pointed at the same direction as possible, hence why it's a reasonable request for this ship. It's not the same deal.
Is it though? Maybe it is, but you musst not forget the mobula.
The spire has 3 guns facing forward and one of them is a heavy weapon. Making it pretty much better than the mobula sense the mobula cannot turn for crap.
So is the spire a gun happy ship or is it a gun combo happy ship?
This is the thought process of applying the 45 degree buff on the lower left gun. It will help, but it harms other roles (not just spire roles but other ship roles).
The spire allready is able to kill and it is able to destroy i just think it needs to perform better. If that gun gets a 45 degree buff, i will be happy but you will see less uses of the mobula, heck maybe even the galleon.
The spire today is reliant on its guns, its combos work, they work but got damn it is just not enough. So what do you do? Dodge, fly up, fly down, spin, near miss. Once succesfull, it will work, your guns will have room to attack again. But, that is also just not enough. You dodge slowly, you barely escape the shots.
I still think acceleration boost to the spire is a much safer choice of a buff than a 45 degree on the gun. If that 45 degree gun is there trust me, spire will be good and will be better than the mobula and the galleon.
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Its only better until you start getting shot. Then you lose an engie to repair and the pilot to evade. I don't see it getting OP if you turn that lower gun.
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Is it though? Maybe it is, but you musst not forget the mobula.
The spire has 3 guns facing forward and one of them is a heavy weapon. Making it pretty much better than the mobula sense the mobula cannot turn for crap.
So is the spire a gun happy ship or is it a gun combo happy ship?
This is the thought process of applying the 45 degree buff on the lower left gun. It will help, but it harms other roles (not just spire roles but other ship roles).
The spire allready is able to kill and it is able to destroy i just think it needs to perform better. If that gun gets a 45 degree buff, i will be happy but you will see less uses of the mobula, heck maybe even the galleon.
The spire today is reliant on its guns, its combos work, they work but got damn it is just not enough. So what do you do? Dodge, fly up, fly down, spin, near miss. Once succesfull, it will work, your guns will have room to attack again. But, that is also just not enough. You dodge slowly, you barely escape the shots.
I still think acceleration boost to the spire is a much safer choice of a buff than a 45 degree on the gun. If that 45 degree gun is there trust me, spire will be good and will be better than the mobula and the galleon.
Mobula is way faster though and can dodge much more reliably, plus it's a light gun platform that can keep a trifecta at all times without akward turning and can change from close range to long range very easily, that alone is much to differientate it from the Spire.
I don't mind the lower gun specifically, but I'm dead on set that the upper gun needs more turning forward to make more choices available to it.
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I know it's math but I think a great way to approach this would be the average time it takes to kill a spire, and the average time it would take for a spire to kill a ship (assume best possible loadout).
I haven't unlocked any of the medium weapons (I think?) and I'm missing most of the ship stats (especially Spire) but that could be an easy way to decide what would be "OP". If it only takes an average of 15sec to kill a Spire (Pyra does it in 13, squid in 18, etc.) than we need to equip a Spire to kill an average ship in 15sec.
That way the game changing factors are piloting, ammo types, and engineer loadout. Which I think we can agree is how it should be!
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My problem with the spire is that it can't actually use all its strong sides well in combat.
Things the spire is good at:
- Turning
- Vertical movement
- Sniping/concentrated fire. It's pretty easy to set up and maintain a light-light-medium gun trifecta because of good turning speed and slim horizontal profile (unlikely to crash into anything).
Now, here is what it's actually bad at:
- Brawling and horizontal dodging because it's so slow and squishy and can't maneuver while firing.
- Vertical dodging because it has a HUGE vertical profile.
- Sniping because it can't strafe or backpedal quickly, so it's really easy for an enemy to take out its guns.
All of that being said, I think it's already a good mid-range killer, because pretty much anyything disintegrates under sustained fire from two magma cannons and a heavy flak. The problem is that outside of that annulus, the magma cannons' projectile drop becomes unworkable, and inside it the bullets/shells don't arm for full damage. This can be compensated by taking either greased or lesmok, but those tools only shift the already narrow effective range, not widen it. As long as the spire has a (possibly disabler) buddy that can stop enemies from ramming it, the spire can kick ass, but I agree that it's helpless when alone. Too bad good (disabler) buddies are so rare..
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My problem with the spire is that it can't actually use all its strong sides well in combat.
Things the spire is good at:
- Turning
- Vertical movement
- Sniping/concentrated fire. It's pretty easy to set up and maintain a light-light-medium gun trifecta because of good turning speed and slim horizontal profile (unlikely to crash into anything).
Now, here is what it's actually bad at:
- Brawling and horizontal dodging because it's so slow and squishy and can't maneuver while firing.
- Vertical dodging because it has a HUGE vertical profile.
- Sniping because it can't strafe or backpedal quickly, so it's really easy for an enemy to take out its guns.
All of that being said, I think it's already a good mid-range killer, because pretty much anyything disintegrates under sustained fire from two magma cannons and a heavy flak. The problem is that outside of that annulus, the magma cannons' projectile drop becomes unworkable, and inside it the bullets/shells don't arm for full damage. This can be compensated by taking either greased or lesmok, but those tools only shift the already narrow effective range, not widen it. As long as the spire has a (possibly disabler) buddy that can stop enemies from ramming it, the spire can kick ass, but I agree that it's helpless when alone. Too bad good (disabler) buddies are so rare..
Merc front art starboard? Merc has the shatter + pierce and artemis also with the shatter.
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My new spire motto is going to be "gotta have more cannon" with the voice of Christopher Walken in my head as I say it.
I really do think a 45 degree turn on the lower port gun and a 15 degree on the upper starboard gun could really make the Spire a feared ship in combat.
I agree with Zill in that Quadfectas are rarely op since firing on a Spire can stop the quadfecta by either disabling a weapon, popping the balloon, setting a fire or damaging the hull in order to force a repair and any sort of horizontal maneuver will make the pilot abandon his gun or lose firing arcs.
I think it would be pretty cool to set loose the quadfecta spire on GOI and if it turns out to be op it'd be pretty easy to turn it back into the slow moving giant punching bag that it is now.
Spires gotta have more cannon!
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Omniraptor pretty much has the more saturated strengths and weaknesses narrowed down.
If you just add this 45 degree buff it will not change much or change too much. This is being said because of weapons, weapons are a balance on its own, so if a weapon that the spire uses alot gets buffed, then the spire may be percieved as OP. So fi one of the three available guns we have today are buffed or tweaked to comfort the spire, it will then either be fine or broken on other ships and etc.
The degree buff on the weapon slot does not just effect the spire, but the weapon used on it.
I still going to have to say that buffing the spires stats someway or another, in my oppinion the acceleration is our best bet so we dont ruin other ships.
Mobula is way faster though and can dodge much more reliably, plus it's a light gun platform that can keep a trifecta at all times without akward turning and can change from close range to long range very easily, that alone is much to differientate it from the Spire.
I disagree, the mobula has the most akward turning ever, keeping that trifecta is easy but keep aim at a target flying around you, doing god knows what, and just because of that, it has a tough time fighting back after "escaping". It even has a tougher time maintaining repairs than the spire. BUT because that the mobula can dodge duck dip dive and dodge for it is smaller than the spire.
If you have seen me flying on some tourneys then you know that being a though target to hit as the spire can mean alot to your teamate. But most of those times when i try to dodge i always have my hull down at some point.
That is why acceleration boost will help it out, like alot. It will even do hella good with close range weapons on open maps. It will be viable at dodging sniper shots, the 45 weapon degree will not.
I disagree completely on the upper right gun getting a 15 or so degree buff, that could be a bit too dangerouse. Again it is all worth testing but imagine a pyra that rams even at long range, that is what the spire then may become.
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If you have seen me flying on some tourneys then you know that being a though target to hit as the spire can mean alot to your teamate. But most of those times when i try to dodge i always have my hull down at some point.
That is why acceleration boost will help it out, like alot. It will even do hella good with close range weapons on open maps. It will be viable at dodging sniper shots, the 45 weapon degree will not.
I don't disagree that buffing its acceleration is a good idea, but making it more 'cannon'-ish is a priority since the ship's focus should be its firepower. It IS a sniper after all.
I disagree completely on the upper right gun getting a 15 or so degree buff, that could be a bit too dangerouse. Again it is all worth testing but imagine a pyra that rams even at long range, that is what the spire then may become.
I'm sorry but the Galleon already does that a million times better than any Spire would hope to do and nobody complained it's OP, why would the Spire be OP cause of one more light gun that has a choice variety that isn't just "Artemis or Banshee cause the arc is shit"? Care to explain what's the difference?
People already exclaimed their worries about 2 Merc, which I find very comical and over-reactionary to be honest, but 15 degrees will help a ton of other guns that could go there while keeping 2Merc non-viable due to no arc overlapping.
The whole point of turning the other top gun isn't to put a second Merc on it (even though I believe this should be an option as well, but I digress, people seem to be too scared of it even though the twin Merc meta is long gone), but to make other guns viable there so you can keep the frontal Merc cause right now, there isn't much choice and if you want an other gun there that works without having to turn your ship JUST right, you need to have either a Banshee or an Artemis and that's a very depressing number of choices.
Balancing aside, you have to think of the gameplay experience as well. 1.2 Merc was fine balacing wise, barely, but it was still a horrible experience to go against it for example. Making the ship too much of a hassle to play also detracts from its appeal and right now that top right gun is a massive hassle (requires too much precise turning that might throw off your gunner's shots, mess other arcs, blah blah blah, can keep going for ever) for anything that isn't a Banshee or an Artemis, with the later turning so slow as well.
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you need to have either a Banshee or an Artemis and that's a very depressing number of choices.
Wooooaaat?!?!?!
OOooh Hold on, imma make a vid now. And i will show you. (Dont take this hard, i wanted to do this anyway :P )
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you need to have either a Banshee or an Artemis and that's a very depressing number of choices.
Wooooaaat?!?!?!
OOooh Hold on, imma make a vid now. And i will show you. (Dont take this hard, i wanted to do this anyway :P )
If it includes akward angling and or ship jiggling to bring the gun in arc I don't consider it a normal choice. I imply that as a sniper your front gun will be a Merc, which has a very limited arc to begin with.
Though I have to say that with the current configuration of the Spire I've come to prefer a Lumberjack + Flak(front)/Artemis(right) combo
Just as a note btw, I know that you can arc a frontal Merc and right Flak with the current weapon angles on the top deck, the arc is JUST at both weapons' limit, making it extremely hard to keep up with an enemy. It also means the pilot is needed on the helm to keep these arcs for more than a second on target which comes with known downsides.
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Nope, you are wrong. The flak and gattling angles have large ammount of space with little to the right of the front aiming. Aiming the guns should not be akward if you have that much space.
The merc will still be able to aim with another flak or gat, the heavy weapon (depends)and still works nicely, but only then it gets akward because the merc is where it gets difficult.
There is no problem in having the spire turning a little to the left, i mean it has incredible turning speed and you dont need all 3 crew on the guns.
Ships arent designed to aim forward, that is why i said that turning the lower left weapon 45 degrees could potentially break or not do much at all for the spire as it has other concerns.
That is also why i said this suggestion feels like the squid post some time ago.
And a merc with flak is not ideal, you should know this if youve flown the spire for long enough. In the video even if my voice quality is shit, i talk about you can bifecta hadez cannons but it is too difficult because the gun itself is hard to use and could potentially make you even more squishy just because then you would have to leave the main engineer to gun a hadez. If you were to try and jump on one of the hadez guns to aim, it would because of momentum start turning away from the bifecta arc.
But there are allready enough choice of guns that you can use in combinations.
hold on... its rendering... yeah its about 20 minutes long, its just me talking and changing loadouts for demonstration of different gun combination possibilities + why changing the angle of one of the two suggested slots would break or not affect the spire. (And now it is uploading... takes its time)
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Sounds like most of us agree on turning the other two guns forward a bit. I would love to see what load outs players come up with.
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I give up on the vid, takes too long to upload.
I dont know what turning the guns forward does for the spire, if you call it a sniper ship you basically then take away 50% or more weapons away from its arsenal.
Turning the guns forward will lead to that, a ship that can only act from long range, it will still be this weak ship that it is.
Omniraptor gave a good perspective.
My problem with the spire is that it can't actually use all its strong sides well in combat.
Things the spire is good at:
- Turning
- Vertical movement
- Sniping/concentrated fire. It's pretty easy to set up and maintain a light-light-medium gun trifecta because of good turning speed and slim horizontal profile (unlikely to crash into anything).
Now, here is what it's actually bad at:
- Brawling and horizontal dodging because it's so slow and squishy and can't maneuver while firing.
- Vertical dodging because it has a HUGE vertical profile.
- Sniping because it can't strafe or backpedal quickly, so it's really easy for an enemy to take out its guns.
The guns will not answer this, these cons will still be there.
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Just because turning the guns would help out with long range builds doesn't mean it would also take away from the shorter ranges. I mean, that bottom gun can then be manned by your hull engie so he's closer to it once fire starts going in.
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Sounds like a way to get a good Quadfecta to me. It actually sounds a tad bit overpowered since the only other ship that can get four guns on target is a Mobula, and those are all light weapons.
Imagine a Spire with a Gatling top right, gatling bottom left, mortar top, and a medium carronade... That thing would rip through armor, blast apart the balloon, and rain a hell storm of mortars. Scary.
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Right, until someone decided to stop ignoring it and started shooting on them, lol.
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Squishy thing.
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Nope, you are wrong. The flak and gattling angles have large ammount of space with little to the right of the front aiming. Aiming the guns should not be akward if you have that much space.
The merc will still be able to aim with another flak or gat, the heavy weapon (depends)and still works nicely, but only then it gets akward because the merc is where it gets difficult.
I just tested it on the Sandbox, the arc for both guns is on both guns arc limit with very little freedom for leading the target so I insist that I am right.
Merc is the only truly long range piercing gun, the Hades is mostly mid range due to the arc making it near impossible to hit or lead very long range targets. What the hell do you use on a long range Spire, Gatlings?
There is no problem in having the spire turning a little to the left, i mean it has incredible turning speed and you dont need all 3 crew on the guns.
If you wish to match a Galleon's firepower then you need three people on guns, sorry, that's a fact, if the arc is very limited, then that means you have to steer so the others can shoot.
And a merc with flak is not ideal, you should know this if you've flown the spire for long enough.
Along with an LJ it's practically a Mini-Galleon, what's not so ideal about that firepower? It gives the LJ Spire some much needed finishing power on top of its utility. I don't understand. The only reason I can see why it's not ideal now is because of the crappy angle on the top right gun that allows for little freedom of movement to the Flak on the right.
In the video even if my voice quality is shit, i talk about you can bifecta hades cannons but it is too difficult because the gun itself is hard to use and could potentially make you even more squishy just because then you would have to leave the main engineer to gun a hades. If you were to try and jump on one of the hades guns to aim, it would because of momentum start turning away from the bifecta arc.
Bifecta Hades is possible and you would need 2 people that can shoot the damned thing, not in a million years, it's also not nearly as effective cause you lose out on the utility of the Merc, it's simply not versatile and very range limited due to the Hades' projectile arc.
But there are allready enough choice of guns that you can use in combinations.
Implying you don't use a Merc in the front and also implying your main gun has the firing arc to make it possible, sure you can fit a lot of weapons and at that point you stop being long range, I can't fanthom what would you bring on a long range Spire other than a Merc, Flak or Artemis. If you go anywhere closer than long range you start getting hit or the enemy simply charges into you and you know what that means, which is why Trifectas with mid range guns are pointless to me.
What are you gonna use? Light carronades? Gatling? Flamers or maybe a Mortar? What else is there?
Just to get this out of the way, the Spire is a long range ship by definition of stats and health pools. You don't want enemies close to you so I consider what's viable only under these standards. (I do consider the Hwacha a long range utility gun yes, at least on a Spire where you don't have the speed of the Goldfish to make effective use of its close range abilities unless the enemy gets close first.)
I also consider that you will have to go against players of the same experience level, which means they know they can crap on your ship very easily the moment you start getting hit, which is why I agreed that the Spire could maybe use an Acceleration buff, my only other drag is that its turning accelerates so fast, but for some reason it doesn't turn as fast as people think, it's actually still slower than a Junker's max turning speed and I think the Goldfish has a higher max turning speed as well.
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Imagine a Spire with a Gatling top right, gatling bottom left, mortar top, and a medium carronade... That thing would rip through armor, blast apart the balloon, and rain a hell storm of mortars. Scary.
Only if the upper gun got an arc increase as well, if only the bottom got it, then you wouldn't be able to point both gatlings on the same target, their arcs wouldn't overlap.
The top right Gatling can't aim directly in front of the ship, it can AIM at the front, but not the front of the ship itself (aka the middle), just forward.
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I am allready fairing very well with the spire versus many ships and im not using JUST the merc, i use all sorts of guns.
I do manage to escape lots of damage and if its guns get a degree buff, itl go sniper and not be chosen on close range maps defeating the choice of ships on every map.
I just dont see why having more guns pointing forward is an answer. Of every stat that there is, i truly do believe the acceleration needs a boost to help itself out in positioning for sniper reasons and escapeing for close range reasons.
And i honestly dont need more than that.
I still want an answer to how the 45 degree buff will change the spire versus other snipers or close range encounters or even helping itself out.
Im saying this again and again, the spire is good if done right as it is, the weapons will not change anything about how easy it is to fail with the spire.
I had this theory once before the mercury nerf, i used the spire versus sniper galleon and junkers. So i put a mercury on the lower left. Because i knew we had trouble versus them before of how damn powerfull sniping was then.
This worked, until we got hit. We did dodge a few shots until they did get a LJ shot in, then i tried going the other direction just by going backwards, but the time of it going forward to backwards was too long even with moonshine to be considered "dodging".
Implying you don't use a Merc in the front and also implying your main gun has the firing arc to make it possible, sure you can fit a lot of weapons and at that point you stop being long range, I can't fanthom what would you bring on a long range Spire other than a Merc, Flak or Artemis. If you go anywhere closer than long range you start getting hit or the enemy simply charges into you and you know what that means, which is why Trifectas with mid range guns are pointless to me.
So then it is your oppinion? Ive fought with close range and long range weapons, if you just see the power of close ranges, AI Mortar with Twin Carronade. Hadez with Hwacha and flak or mines. Lumberjack with flak front with gat side (This is FROM long to mid range).
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That's what I meant, 'if the bottom left gun faced farther forward.'
I haven't used a gatling on my Spire as a valid build so I don't know it's arcs, just a creepy thought.
I think the Spire fills its niche well. Went up against a standard merc/flak build a week or so ago that had such an in-sync crew that me and my ally with our pub crews stood no chance, we couldn't get close because of his Blenderfish ally, and since they were camping our spawn in Canyon Ambush, we'd always respawn far apart where they could pick one of us off as soon as we spawned in.
Those two rounds were so disheartening that I had to quit playing for the day since it left such a bad taste in my mouth.
Spire is fine.
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Dont know if your talking about your crew versus theirs and the carronade or the actuality that is within a spire.
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I am allready fairing very well with the spire versus many ships and im not using JUST the merc, i use all sorts of guns.
I do manage to escape lots of damage and if its guns get a degree buff, itl go sniper and not be chosen on close range maps defeating the choice of ships on every map.
I'm not using JUST the Merc either, but that doesn't mean you can win against a seasoned opponent with a Carronade Spire, I can fuck around in pubs too you know, yet the moment it gets remotely serious, builds that seem to work suddenly turn useless.
I still want an answer to how the 45 degree buff will change the spire versus other snipers or close range encounters or even helping itself out.
Im saying this again and again, the spire is good if done right as it is, the weapons will not change anything about how easy it is to fail with the spire.
More concetrated fire power, more room for manuvering and leading targets, more choices for a longer range game with the Spire. It won't help it in close combat cause no matter how much help you get, against a true brawler you will go down in seconds no matter how hard you try.
So then it is your oppinion? Ive fought with close range and long range weapons, if you just see the power of close ranges, AI Mortar with Twin Carronade. Hadez with Hwacha and flak or mines. Lumberjack with flak front with gat side (This is FROM long to mid range).
I see you using your opinion just as freely for starters.
I just dont see why having more guns pointing forward is an answer. Of every stat that there is, i truly do believe the acceleration needs a boost to help itself out in positioning for sniper reasons and escapeing for close range reasons.
And i honestly dont need more than that.
Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight or sound offensive, just pointing out the fact that this is all opinionated, just want to be clear, how to buff a ship doesn't have a certain way of going about it, everyone is probably gonna point out what they feel the ship could use without screwing it over big time. Just like you did and just like everyone else, inclusing me, did.
Secondly, I have used the close range builds myself, many a time, I've found them to be a crap ton of fun against newbies and clueless players, against players that know how to aim even an Artemis, not so much. Let alone an other carronade from a faster ship can just as easily disable yours and procceed to have an intimate time with your rear, especially since you can only approach with your weapon exposed and you are VERY slow, second slowest in the game I think, only the Junker must be slower (correct me if I'm wrong).
I just want to have fun with this beautiful ship against people that will provide me with a decent challenge as well and as it stands right now, it's neigh impossible even if you go long range.
I'm not trying to say that by turning the top or lower gun more is the be-all-end-all buffs to this ship that will make it uber viable, in all honestly I would much prefer the Spire have around 1200 hull health and better acceleration in order to be able to stand in point like a true sentinel and leave the gun slots alone, but I have to compromise cause most people here will probably jump on me saying this is OP.
I've tested the Spire during the 3x Hull health event and while 1600 health was a bit too much, I think this ship was the only one that could use such a buff, in my head, it made it what I was hoping it would be. A man can dream right?
Oh well, back to reality where the Spire still sucks against decent opposition. Go on.
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I've actually never seen the Spire as just a long range ship, since I think t performs best as a mid range ship due to it's ability to change ranges while shooting. The problem with the Spire is that it struggles so much in close range combat that people fear to use it at mid range now.
With a good crew I can often do a good amount of damage mid range to a charging pyra then give the spire a quick twist and finish off the pyra with the right gun to save my ship from its impending doom. The problem with this is that it's ver difficult and inconsistent to pull it off.
If the right gun was turned farther forward and the lower left gun were turned forward a bit it would give the pilot a much more reliable opportunity to have the gun in arc when he makes it to his weapon as well as giving a trifecta opportunity to the engineer if the ship isn't being pummled (like junkers mobulas pyramidions and galleons have). This will finally make the Spire a glass cannon and engagements will become a race between a ship with high firepower and low health against ships with moderate firepower and moderate health.
Currently Spires don't put out enough dps to ever win that race so most pilots choose to use them at long range where they win the dps race since opponents are too far to shoot back.
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So the math suggestion got buried and I'm just now getting around to crunching for everyone's reference. Please feel free to make corrections as needed.
Spire hull armor- 500/10dmg=50 shots of gatling. 50/5shots per second=10seconds to take down armor.
hull health- 750/90dmg=9 shots of mortar. 9/1.82shots per second=5sec to finish off the hull. (not sure about the primary and secondary damage and how to count it).
Point is under ideal conditions the spire needs to kill a ship in under 15 seconds.
The two most common and most difficult ships for a Spire to kill would be Pyra (everyone flies it) and Goldfish which has the most total hull of a commonly flown ship (1500).
It takes a Spire 8 seconds to take out a goldfishes armor. (400/10=40/5=8sec) and then another 7-8 to bring the hull down. (1100/90=13/1.82=7.14sec)
For pyra it gets messy. It take 65 shots to take down the hull armor. That's a minimum of the full 12sec of the magazine, a 4-5sec reload, and then one more sec of firing for a grand total of 17secs. Add in the 4.4secs to bring the hull down and you get a whopping 21.4 seconds to kill a pyra vs the 15 to kill a spire. The spire has been dead for 2seconds before it can even get the hull down on a pyra.
All these numbers assume no gunner misses a shot, and no engineer repairs but its better for crunching.
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I purposefully kept this separate so that I didn't write a whole essay but the focus of the spire's cannon needs to be on piercing. The lousy arcs and limited amount of loadout choices dictate the way a spire can behave.
If we change anything it needs to be focused on bringing the engagement time to a shorter end. Down to killing in 15 seconds or less. Double gatling gun, or change the arc of the gun mounts so that a hades can double up, that's all up for debate but at least we have a benchmark.
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Just a quick correction, your math left out damage modifiers. Actual "ideal" engagement lengths where all shots hit and are timed perfectly are actually shorter.
Still, the health disadvantage of the spire is nonetheless the same and easily verifiable anecdotally even without precise math. The solution is to give it enough dps to compensate.
Gotta have more cannon
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Thats if you are using the spire as a close range ship, Changing it to a long range ship completely adds new differentials to this equation.
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Just a correction, I know your mentioned something about it, but here's how it works.
The Gatling deals 17 damage per shot to armor, not 10, because you have to apply both damage types and their respective damage modifiers, piercing on armor is 1.5 and shatter on armor is 0.2
so the Gatling that has 10 piercing and 10 shatter deals 15 piercing and 2 shatter on the armor, for a total of 17.
Of course your theory implies both ships start firing at each other at the same time and nobody misses a shot, but this is exactly why I think that close range builds on a Spire doesn't work, as a Spire, you absolutely NEED to get the first shots in, else you will die to any proper ship, and since nobody is perfect, shots will be missed and then it's when you are royal screwed over.
Just a quick correction, your math left out damage modifiers. Actual "ideal" engagement lengths where all shots hit and are timed perfectly are actually shorter.
Still, the health disadvantage of the spire is nonetheless the same and easily verifiable anecdotally even without precise math. The solution is to give it enough dps to compensate.
Gotta have more cannon
Honestly Smollett I agree with you on the Mid range thing, it honestly feels that the Spire should be a mid range ship and I can feel it while playing it as well, you have the power to close in and make shots easier for your gunners, but the problem still lies in the fact that the moment you get in mid range, it's also easier for them to shoot back and you can't take those hits as well as they can take yours.
So which will it be? More cannon and leave 70% of your engages with critical damage or dead, or more health with the current cannon, which will be balanced out by the added health to give the ship more durability in a mid range situation?
I've had a discussion about this with one of my clan mates last night to be honest.
So, why did I make this thread in the first place? Because I honestly think that Muse can't get away with just giving the Spire 100 more health and call it a day.
But as someone said to me last night: "True, but the entire nature of the thread is hilarious, as like all Gameplay forum threads, it devolves into rant and counter-rant based around one-upmanship. Ultimately achieving nothing, and only adding noise. Everyone revisits grey-area arguments." (I won't give out a name for privacy reasons, but I think that what was said is true.)
Now ask yourselves, will this ship ever truly be a Glass cannon while the Galleon is in the game? Nothing has more firepower than that ship so please let's stop using that term, the Spire is not a Glass cannon, it's just glass at this point and it will never be a Glass cannon cause it will NEVER have more firepower than a Galleon. Point.
It's out-gunned and out tanked but almost all ships in the game and it's ALWAYS the weakest link in a team setup, which is why it's never used 95% of the time. Why take a weak link while ANY other ship can fill that spot withouth giving the enemy a clear primary target that can easily fall to dust? Not only is it the weakest link, it's also slow and can't dodge to save its life and has no armor to speak of what so ever and it's guns are easily taken out, effectively crippling its firepower very easily.
So what about those things? Why is everyone overlooking these? Does everyone in here think that it's perfectly okay for that ship to stay as is with minimum changes?
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That is the big question, ye.
Im just too afraid of it becoming too powerful with a potentialy small buff here or there.
I can withstand and do very good outside and inside pub matches, but damn arent the weaknesses of flying the damn thing so obvious.
There is a great deal other ships that have the power to abuse what they are anywhere, the spire lacks this.
Again, omniraptor listed it pretty well.
Making guns point forward, leaving everything else will make the spire a pick in maps such as fjords, dunes, maybe canyons and go just sniper. This will make the spire a glass cannon, specialy with orginized play but every ship can perform like a muthafuka on any map, so the slow, weak stick that is the spire will just be that "punching bag" again on those closer maps. Then why choose it. From quadfecta until you take damage, then it is Tri until you have to turn the ship, then it is Bi etc etc.
Turning up the acceleration by a noticable ammount, and i mean noticable would make the spire a very duke heavy ship. It can also have the potential to duck in and out of cover quickly and play a stealth game. Now i love this idea, but i doubt if it will be played that way or that the acceleration buff will make it apparent enough for players to play the spire in that sense. Or use its body type to help itself out with it... at all.
Buffing the health/armor is quite a common buff and has been around for many days, but its big, the baloon is begging for it to be shot. The hull is easy to confirm a shot, the guns are easy to take out. etc etc.
Looking at its stats, it is below average. With outside stat related effects like the hull and the baloon and the speed backfiring.
The good things are the guns and its added stat bonus to vertical acceleration. Dat it...
Oh dont forget about the bad component placement for the engineers to handle...
So, why did I make this thread in the first place? Because I honestly think that Muse can't get away with just giving the Spire 100 more health and call it a day.
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So what about those things? Why is everyone overlooking these? Does everyone in here think that it's perfectly okay for that ship to stay as is with minimum changes?
I wonder when they give the spire some "more" love, what they will decide to do with it. No honestly, i am actualy not having a pleasant thought. If its just a lackluster buff, or an over the top buff im not happy either way.
An off topic question: If the spire would get a decent buff to be left as is of, what other ships do you think would then need a buff? My cents go for either the squid or the mobula.
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Not to take this off topic but as of right now the squid is in a good place and conpetitive in my opinion.
As for the mobula, I really think the jury is still out. I've had good success with it in recent pub play but that doesn't say much. If anything a very small boost to turning acceleration would help it but the ship doesn't feel like it needs too much currently.
Now that Spire has only dps and turning speed as its strength and it's weak to balloon popping, weapon component disables and outright being killed.
Are we really worried about the Spire being op?
That Spire's gotta have more cannon.
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Turning up the acceleration by a noticable ammount, and i mean noticable would make the spire a very duke heavy ship. It can also have the potential to duck in and out of cover quickly and play a stealth game. Now i love this idea, but i doubt if it will be played that way or that the acceleration buff will make it apparent enough for players to play the spire in that sense. Or use its body type to help itself out with it... at all.
I'm curious about this solution, not just for the Spire. In theory, what would we do with a Spire that could get up to top speed very quickly, even if that top speed was relatively slow? It would be like suddenly juking, taking shots out of arc, even for just a second. The superior turning of the spire allows it a sudden burst forward or back, a turn, keeps its guns on target and avoids maybe a second or two of damage.
Spire, the Picard maneuver.
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I like the idea of a faster acceleration speed for the spire. That combined with 4 front facing guns could give the spire all it needs to be competitive.
That Spire's gotta have more cannon.
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I'm curious about this solution, not just for the Spire. In theory, what would we do with a Spire that could get up to top speed very quickly, even if that top speed was relatively slow? It would be like suddenly juking, taking shots out of arc, even for just a second. The superior turning of the spire allows it a sudden burst forward or back, a turn, keeps its guns on target and avoids maybe a second or two of damage.
Spire, the Picard maneuver.
Thats what i want, and thats what i feel like it needs. But god damn there is so much going in my head about these buffs. I wonder how hard the spire rams then versus a stationary target up against a wall. Will the spire be even more velcroed to objects because it goes in just the right speed at that very moment.
I am at glee thinking about the good sides of it, but then again I WANNA TEST IT ALL!