Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Caprontos on March 08, 2015, 08:57:47 am
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Several have said it, and idk what topics so un... People say gunner isn't fair because gunner has one less option then other classes.. because of standard ammo
Basically.. Engineer and pilot have 3 of their class, 1 of each others class, and then 2 ammo choices.. while gunner gets 1 of the other classes items + 3 ammo.. So only one less compared to them.
What if they just remove the pilot and engineer ammo choice, and let the pilot pick the ships "Standard ammo" on the ship loadout?
This way the pilot and engineer get one ammo (from the ship loadout) and the gunner gets his three choices.. Also make standard ammo an actual ammo.
This also has the added effect, that your engineers can't bring different ammo so the gunners options maybe more useful then a third engineer. Also I guess AI would use whatever ammo you have as "Standard"..
Thoughts?
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Its been suggested numerus times now
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Legit suggestion, woe to those whose pilot picks loch as standard ammo, but yes I like that idea! :)
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Gr8
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If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.
Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.
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If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.
Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.
It reloads the ammo selected. Every ship has this, so while a buff.. everyone has this buff.. and I think it should be this way right now..
It was for a few months like.. early last year or late 2 years ago.. and it was fantastic. So its already possible to change if they wanted to.. Basicly it was whatever ammo was last loaded in to the gun, would reload in to the gun as long as the person who emptied it had the ammo.. Didn't matter if you left the gun or not once it started to reload.. as long as someone without the ammo or AI didn't touch it it'd reload with your ammo.
Another buff is gunner in theory has 4 ammo - while everyone else has 1 (maybe a balance issue but.. since ammo is less relevant then tools - its debatable if its a major negitive or.. just more gunner buff). - Something to consider..
Major nerf is Engineers and pilot could only use the default ship ammo - This means all three engi ships only have one ammo on board.. So if you want ammo diversity you have to have a gunner to get it..
This leads to a lot of crew balance changes (or at lest people have to re-think it).. Like pyra - gunner isn't useful on a pyra usually because.. you don't need more then one ammo to use most light guns effectively.. but if you have two light guns that use two different ammo's.. Then the only way to have both used efficiently - is to have a gunner.
Legit suggestion, woe to those whose pilot picks loch as standard ammo, but yes I like that idea! :)
Standard loch... that would be.. Loch for gunner only ammo? no? haha..:P
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If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.
Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.
Gun doesn't reload unless you are on it when it finishes. If you miss it you have to reload again.
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It reloads the ammo selected. Every ship has this, so while a buff.. everyone has this buff.. and I think it should be this way right now..
That's fair. It would definitely have to be a thing if this "only one ammo for engie/pilot" was done. I would miss the "reload mini-game" though, hah. Also buffs engies as they can reload while leaving a gun. Lets them go off and repair.
Another buff is gunner in theory has 4 ammo - while everyone else has 1 (maybe a balance issue but.. since ammo is less relevant then tools - its debatable if its a major negative or.. just more gunner buff). - Something to consider..
Not really a buff. Past the 4 gunners get now (including standard), you get diminishing returns because boats just don't have that much gun variety when they are built. That and how a gunner plays (at least on my boats) it's good as is.
Major nerf is Engineers and pilot could only use the default ship ammo - This means all three engi ships only have one ammo on board.. So if you want ammo diversity you have to have a gunner to get it..
Now the way this was worded, you make it sound like you only want pilots/engies having standard ammo. I thought the idea was either that, or one specialized ammo and no standard (either or).
Gun doesn't reload unless you are on it when it finishes. If you miss it you have to reload again.
That sounds fairly harsh for all crew involved. I wouldn't be up for that personally. This game has enough mechanics to learn as is.
I'm of the mind that gunners are perfectly fine as is, and need no special attention. I like that there is choice (three engie, one gunner two engie) so long as it's balanced. Figured id put that out there moving forward. I won't say that this idea is horrible and shouldn't be done, but yea.
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I am against removing default standard ammo in anyway.
Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them, but then we are talking about ships like a Metamidion, which I believe to be already very weak or Metajunkers that apparantly get killed by anything with a Carronade.
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Now the way this was worded, you make it sound like you only want pilots/engies having standard ammo. I thought the idea was either that, or one specialized ammo and no standard (either or).
I mean, The pilot would pick the one ammo the ship has in the ship loadout screen.. So rather then every ship being pre-loaded with standard (which you could pick) - you would pick any of the existing ammo.. and that would be the ammo on the ships guns..
So like a two art one hades junker.. If you pick burst, your engineers on the arts have burst as usual.. but the hades has burst, so if you want lesmonk hades you have to have a gunner.
Mostly it just weakens three engineer and buffs two enginer one gunner.. in more situations.. I assume anyways..
I'm of the mind that gunners are perfectly fine as is, and need no special attention. I like that there is choice (three engie, one gunner two engie) so long as it's balanced. Figured id put that out there moving forward. I won't say that this idea is horrible and shouldn't be done, but yea.
I don't disagree, as the gunner does work as intended on the guns that benefit a lot from multiple ammo's. but it does seem Muse's desire is to see more gunner use in more situations (hence stamina..) - So this is just I guess another side idea to effect gunners use.. To make them more useful or appealing in more situations..
I don't care actually to much about gunner cause I don't like to be a gunner usually, but... there is no lack of would be gunners haha. but I thought it sounded like a different way to do it.. Then the usual stuff I see for this..
Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them
This is the issue I think that the gunner has. Which is Why people suggest ways to improve or change something so they are needed more often.. Weather we need to have them useful in more spots, is debatable - but muse dose seem to want them to be..
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I mean, The pilot would pick the one ammo the ship has in the ship load-out screen.. So rather then every ship being pre-loaded with standard (which you could pick) - you would pick any of the existing ammo.. and that would be the ammo on the ships guns..
Now I see. I thought people would just pick ammo as usual, just losing standard + special, and only getting either or (except gunner). Your approach heads more into the "require one gunner" vs "have your choice, with more balance." That's my take on it anyway. Not sure how I feel about that. Maybe not if you make builds where your engies just take the same ammo, but it hurts different ships in different ways, gun wise.
Example: For a junker, I can fit a lot of guns that like the same ammo, so engies can take that. Can't on a galleon. At least for the build I'm thinking of off the top of my head.
If there is to be an ammo mechanic change, I'd hope it changes everything equally, which I'm not sure is possible.
(hence stamina..)
Ugh, my first experience of that felt just wrong. Didn't fit in the game. I won't derail too hard here, but there are certainly better ways to approach getting gunners on more ships if that is Muse's goal. I'd go for this ammo mechanics idea before stamina.
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Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them
This is the issue I think that the gunner has. Which is Why people suggest ways to improve or change something so they are needed more often.. Weather we need to have them useful in more spots, is debatable - but muse dose seem to want them to be..
Yes, what has to be changed to make gunners more used are ammo types, since most guns allow one ammo type to be the best. Sometimes two ammo types are the best for one gun (e.g.: Hwacha with Heavy or Burst), but then some people think they can survive without the second ammo type (e.g.: only burst hwacha on Goldfish). Gunners would sometimes be used on guns that have different ranges, because of arming time and, I say, should pretty much always be used when you use at least 2 different guns to get the best out of both of them.
I suppose it depends on the pilot, does he want all crewmembers to be using only that one gun with the optimal ammo and all others with default ammo if it comes down to it? Or does he want at least one of them to use multiple guns and operate all of them with the optimal ammo instead of default? The problem here is no that default ammo exists, it is that all the other ammo types are still very close to default and only in those rare cases do they differ. I don't think anybody needs a burst Artemis to destroy guns, because the default ammo is enough to destroy those guns or for Carronades it is enough to destroy balloons or for Mortar it is enough to kill pretty much every ship in the game with one clip. The guns are just so good at what they do that increasing damage or fire rate just speedens up the process. Now the rare cases I mentioned would be Lesmok for long range, Heavy clip for long range Hwacha or sniping Carronades/Minotaurs and burst for disable everything Hwacha, but these are also cases were having only one ammo type is pretty much ok to have.
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Hmm, I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand, it would be rather nice to have a custom default ammo on the ship as to insure that it is brought. And it would make the gunner more important by having the ability to choose how to utilize the guns more.
But...with some ships it would make it impossible to utilize certain builds and make more work for a gunner. One of the builds my clan likes to use on galleon is double flak bot deck, merc top sniping side. The top deck engi takes charged for the merc, and the bot deck one takes lesmock to help with the flak arcs. So if the engi can no longer bring their own, what would the default choice be? If the choice was les, that would strip damage from the merc since it's rather easy to use without les, but if you choose charged that would make it harder for the engi on the bot deck, and wouldn't be able to fire the same range with the gunner. And the gunner can't reload for them due to size of the ship and reload times.
Or another build I see frequently enough is the meta pyra gat/mortar front, and flamethrower side. Alot of engi's like lesmock for the flame thrower, and engi on mortar debate between greased /burst/charge. (Oh gods, the debate on best ammo for that gun XD) So which ammo? Now the pilot is forced to choose a default ammo type that may not agree with both of the engineers play style. Should the gunner bring a different one for the mortar? After the first clip, you'd have to hope you killed it or have the gunner reload again.
Mind you, this is just off the top of my head but I'm sure there are other examples. So that means that which ever round the pilot chooses to be his default, he then would have to choose the guns that fit it best or force the gunner to run around more...and depending on the ship that's near impossible to expect...thus limiting your build options.
It's a fine idea...but I see a few difficulties that may arise. I'd love to see more ammo types to add to the gunner's versatility to be honest.
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Several have said it, and idk what topics so un... People say gunner isn't fair because gunner has one less option then other classes.. because of standard ammo
Basically.. Engineer and pilot have 3 of their class, 1 of each others class, and then 2 ammo choices.. while gunner gets 1 of the other classes items + 3 ammo.. So only one less compared to them.
What if they just remove the pilot and engineer ammo choice, and let the pilot pick the ships "Standard ammo" on the ship loadout?
This way the pilot and engineer get one ammo (from the ship loadout) and the gunner gets his three choices.. Also make standard ammo an actual ammo.
This also has the added effect, that your engineers can't bring different ammo so the gunners options maybe more useful then a third engineer. Also I guess AI would use whatever ammo you have as "Standard"..
Thoughts?
wait... pilot gets 1 and engie gets 1 for ammo.
all 3 classes have, 3 for their class and 1 for each class outside their own.
So I'm guessing the suggestion is change the formula from 1, 1, 3
to 1, 2, 3?
Like pilot
3 pilot, 2 engie, 1 gunner.
engie
3 engie, 2 gunner, 1 pilot
gunner
3 gunner, 2 pilot (tho engie makes more sense-but balancing issue), 1 engie?
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I agree, if they could make ammo have more utility and extend there usefulness - gunners could become more valuable on more guns because more situations demand them.. I liked the idea they had going to.. change ammo to being less mix bag and more specific in what it does.. but I guess that went on the back burner for stamina or something.. ? idk..
That said I think the primary issue is short range guns don't benefit from multiple ammo types.. and its because there is no "situations" for the current ammo to... There range is to short.. Most of them have multiple ammo that work well with it.. just one is all you really need for it.. and more engineer tools is more valuable then the minor benefit you'd get having two other ammo..
Even if you think about it.. What do ammo types do for gunner? They let him use a gun more effectively ad various ranges (usually long, mid, short).. That's ammo only strength really.. atm.. So I think if they did new ammo they would have to think out side this box.. and make ammo effect engagements in more ways then range.. but idk what that might be.. I have thought about it.. but short of really gimmicky niche ammo ideas.. I don't know what would really stand out...
Even removing standard ammo would really only effect.. heavy flak, lumberjack, artemis, hades, and mine launcher.. I think?. and that's only because lesmonk = more effective long range and standard = useable short range with lesmonk.. Gunner is more useful in all these cases already (except the artemis.. but artemis is an engineer gun not a gunner gun anyway.. 99% of the time so its irreverent)...
Pretty much all the other guns - gunner usually not that useful for anyways.. because one ammo will do it (and more doesn't outweigh the value of two engineer tools) and standard isn't a factor in why..
Another major issue with removing standard in any form is you nerf engineer but don't actually buff gunner at all for many ship loadouts.. Due to - each class generally has a "spot" on the ship .. and if the gun is in an engineer slot.. It doesn't matter if a gunner is better or not - it has to be a engineer.. (think galleon top deck, spire top deck, pyra top right.. etc )... So nerfing engineer here doesn't help the gunner game all the time..
If the change isn't making gunner more or equally as viable in spots gunners go.. then its not that useful.
The topic idea would force more gunner use (as Zill says).. because otherwise you don't have more then one ammo or you have at lest one less effective gun.. and this effects.. most gunner slots positively and effects some engineer slots negatively. (Positive in that.. if more gunner use was a goal, then it would cause it - Negatively in that, it hurts engineer slots but doesn't help gunner usefulness).
-That was.. maybe more words then needed!-
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I don't deny there would be a lot of.. changes.. The builds would still be usable, they'd just be less efficient..
Weather the changes would be to many and the viable gunner not worth it as a result.. Could be the case.
As said though, just a random thought. I didn't actually think it through entirely, so idk if I am for it myself.. Just sounded interesting to me..
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No no.. the argument is..
Pilot has:
3 pilot tools 1 engineer tool and 1 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 2)
Engineer has
1 pilot tool 3 engineer tools and 1 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 2)
Gunner has
1pilot tool 1 engineer tool and 3 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 4)
So gunner technically has the weakest options - cause as Zill says ammo has a diminishing return and standard is usually not useful to a gunner.. cause they have a better standard range ammo choice.. but the engineer benefits form standard ammo in certain cases.
So the two main suggestions I've seen is, give everyone a pipe wrench (basically standard ammo in tool form).. or remove standard ammo on guns and make them reload whatever a player puts in it to make it so.. Engineers only have a single option when on a gun - same as a gunner only has one option when it comes to tools.. (or give both two options)..
This was just another thought on how they could remove standard as the secondary ammo, and instead make it so non-gunner has no ammo versatility (like gunner has no repair versatility)... and all ammo versatility comes from the gunner class.
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I don't deny there would be a lot of.. changes.. The builds would still be usable, they'd just be less efficient..
Weather the changes would be to many and the viable gunner not worth it as a result.. Could be the case.
As said though, just a random thought. I didn't actually think it through entirely, so idk if I am for it myself.. Just sounded interesting to me..
Oh, I agree that it does sound interesting, and I love seeing suggestions and topics in regards to my favorite class. If I sounded irate I certainly didn't mean to, apologies if I did.
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I was under the impression that gunners were in a reasonably good place. On many ships, they are useful, be it for making each individual gun more versatile or for having the personal versatility to maximize the potential of each of the ship's diverse guns.
To that end, I don't really feel like gunners need a buff. I wouldn't recommend a gunner on a Squid, as they tend to use fairly simple guns that can be adequately used by gungineers, though most other ships are best complimented with a single gunner.
Most problems encountered by a crew in this game are best solved with violence anyway.
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We all know that something has to be done to make gunners more usefull.
Gunners current line of options is 4 types of ammo.
Il agree with making the wrench being a standard tool type but only when the engineer gets more tools that will likely happen in the future.
The variation of engineers will be tad bit too much with more tools, and they are essential to be repairing the ship. So give them the option for flexability when more choices of conflict enters the fray.
Currently, engineers dont need to think when choosing and thus we need the wrench to be a selectable tool purely for the sake of keeping them in check with choices of conflict. Specialy buff engineers.
However this then arises the conflict in the class of the pilot being the least that can help with in running action. But in a way the reasoning blows right back when you consider that every ship needs only 1 pilot to be flying the ship, and a ship only needs 1 person to be flown. That way simply being the only pilot in a ship allready gives alot of balance for them.
So, yay to pipe wrench being sstandard, but only when engineers get 1 or 2 more tools... ?
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While I continue to disagree that gunners need anything to make them a more viable option on a ship, I will still offer a suggestion (even while contending that it is unnecessary).
My idea is very simple in principle: remove the pilot and engie item slots, and replace them with wildcard slots that can be from any of the three classes. This would allow gunners to take, for example, a repair tool and a fire suppression tool, at the expense of leaving behind a spyglass. The caveat to this might be that it could also allow engies the ability to also trade off their spyglass for a second ammo, so even if I thought gunners needed a buff, I would still be conflicted about this change.
I dunno, maybe one of you who find gunners lacking can bat that idea around until inspiration conceives a better one.
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While I continue to disagree that gunners need anything to make them a more viable option on a ship, I will still offer a suggestion (even while contending that it is unnecessary).
My idea is very simple in principle: remove the pilot and engie item slots, and replace them with wildcard slots that can be from any of the three classes. This would allow gunners to take, for example, a repair tool and a fire suppression tool, at the expense of leaving behind a spyglass. The caveat to this might be that it could also allow engies the ability to also trade off their spyglass for a second ammo, so even if I thought gunners needed a buff, I would still be conflicted about this change.
I dunno, maybe one of you who find gunners lacking can bat that idea around until inspiration conceives a better one.
A better way to achieve this is.. to allow gunner to select either 3 ammo and 1 engi tool or.. 2 of each - so a gunner can full-fill the role of "gungineers" but be a more offensive type.. (while engineers are the defensive type).. As well as their current role..
I have suggested this directly.. and they say:
We've looked at this idea before. We feel like it hurts the distinct flavors of the classes. The big issue right now is a weakness of gunners and hopefully the new stamina system will make them a lot more interesting.
So yeah. More or less they want to make gunner more interesting by making ammo more interesting (idk what happened to the ammo tests though.. they were doing that for a bit.. a bit ago).. and through stamina..
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Any word on what stamina does or doesn't do?
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Any word on what stamina does or doesn't do?
It maybe in the dev for testing again (Idk I didn't check.. but I think read it was.... err).. If not it will be eventually..
Basically it makes engineer run faster and jump higher..
Pilot can make the ship move around faster
Gunner can turn a gun more to the sides then normal(I think they said they removed the up and down ark changes) and reload a gun quicker.
Stamina recharges overtime.. Kinda slowly + when you get a ship kill everyone gets some back.. When an engineer rebuilds something they get some back.. when a gunner breaks a part they get some.. and I have no idea for pilot.
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It's not like anything in the Dev App is subject to change and is not guaranteed to make it into the game, but hey, why not tell everybody about it?
Regardless, I once did suggest having a default engineer tool, which would mean that the gunner could take a buff hammer and outdo every 3rd engineer with the exception of mallet- and spannering. Helm has a default option and guns have a default ammo type, but the engineer has only whatever you have in your engineering equipment, no exception.
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I think the classes are balanced. Disallowing the other classes to use default ammo would be a major nerf to armtime weapons. If anything just nerf the buff hammer's effect on guns because that's what the argument is.
Giving gunners an extra tool would make them much more useful, but a buff engi is still better in many circumstances. The problem isn't the classes, it's the gun buff that allows engineers to significantly outperform gunners. There wouldn't be an issue if the gun buff didn't exist.
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If anything just nerf the buff hammer's effect on guns
I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one who still thinks this is the issue. It's my biggest complaint in the "gunner vs engie" debate.
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If anything just nerf the buff hammer's effect on guns
I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one who still thinks this is the issue. It's my biggest complaint in the "gunner vs engie" debate.
Im thinking buffed guns could provide features that you wouldnt find in other ammos instead of making charged underpowered. Faster reloads? Perhaps even wider arcs? Food for thought, but Im leaning more towards reload
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If anything just nerf the buff hammer's effect on guns
I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one who still thinks this is the issue. It's my biggest complaint in the "gunner vs engie" debate.
Im thinking buffed guns could provide features that you wouldnt find in other ammos instead of making charged underpowered. Faster reloads? Perhaps even wider arcs? Food for thought, but Im leaning more towards reload
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I think the buffkit should buff the GUN, not the ammo. Buffing the ammo would be the only way to increase damage. I think buffkit should increase turn speed, reload speed, reduce recoil a little, and increase fire rate.
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If anything just nerf the buff hammer's effect on guns
I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one who still thinks this is the issue. It's my biggest complaint in the "gunner vs engie" debate.
Im thinking buffed guns could provide features that you wouldnt find in other ammos instead of making charged underpowered. Faster reloads? Perhaps even wider arcs? Food for thought, but Im leaning more towards reload
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I think the buffkit should buff the GUN, not the ammo. Buffing the ammo would be the only way to increase damage. I think buffkit should increase turn speed, reload speed, reduce recoil a little, and increase fire rate.
Except the fire rate (because that increases DPS, thus being a huge buff to greased ammo) I like the idea that buff effects everything except power/dps
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If that were to change, then either the buff dmg % needs to simply get decreased, or the buff does something no ammo can do.
I think buffkit should increase turn speed, reload speed, reduce recoil a little, and increase fire rate.
This all is stuff ammo can do, but it also has a down side, so it's balanced. For buff, its whack and you're done until you reload, then repeat. No good.
Maybe a buff lets a damaged gun work as undamaged? Perhaps just gives it more hp? Random thoughts but you get the idea. I'll admit my previous post was too straightforward. If people (and muse) are insisting that gunners are in need of a buff, I'd first look at buffing before adding a bunch of mechanics to the game.
Hopefully this isn't derailing the thread too bad.
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The buff damage does seems a bit more than is needed, though I do not see it abused too much. Maybe it is just in comp games, or I just have not been on long enough to run into it as often. Most crews I see have a gunner, so I do not understand where people get that gunner is not used. The only times I don't see a gunner are on specific builds or ships, like the mobula or squid, where a gunner is not needed too much. Really just like anything that is class based, sometimes you will not need certain classes. Does not mean that a class needs buffs, or is unloved. Adding more damage to gunner, or removing the buff effects on buff engines, will not make a gunner more useful on a ship that needs three engines. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion.
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Really just like anything that is class based, sometimes you will not need certain classes. Does not mean that a class needs buffs....
Sorta like how spies aren't always necessary in TF2?
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I dont see anything wrong with the buff hammer on guns. Even with the damage.
Like i said on another thread, we need to get the gunner to be as usefull as the engineer or pilot in all corners across all ships.
The gunners amount of ammo does not help him in every gun. It is a diminishing return because of his activity outside of a gun. While a single ammo can be reloaded at a time.
Ide like to bring up Ammo Combine, if gunners had a Fifth default selection of ammo that allows them to combine all of the stats and changes (even the diminish ones) from equiped ammo into one, then we would have a good use for the class. Some ammo types need tweaking then. Heavy clip and this other ammo i forgot about would need to have a nerf.