Guns Of Icarus Online
Off-Topic => The Lounge => Topic started by: ShadedExalt on May 05, 2015, 08:25:56 pm
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Title says it all. Thoughts?
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Something myself and Alistair had noticed. Was with the 'maybe it's just us' but seems not to.
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Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned. :)
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Feels about the same to me.
But what has grown is the rudeness.
Salt is Salt but outright rudeness is a NO.
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Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned. :)
People have the right to be assholes as much as they want. They just shouldn't expect anyone to listen to them
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Agree with most on here, community is still not quite to the point of "toxic" yet. I will however say that some who were previously just irritable are now outright furious. Nothing wrong with it, they are entitled to their opinions, this is just an observation.
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Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned. :)
People have the right to be assholes as much as they want. They just shouldn't expect anyone to listen to them
Going to have to agree with Riggatto, here. That said, if said asshole-ishness goes too far...
Agree with most on here, community is still not quite to the point of "toxic" yet. I will however say that some who were previously just irritable are now outright furious. Nothing wrong with it, they are entitled to their opinions, this is just an observation.
Good point, Lanliss, Rowho's 'salt' sounds good to me. The brine gets saltier and saltier, but it's not quite to the unlivable level yet.
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If you extract the salt from brine in the right way, it actually makes pretty good building materials in the form of bricks, blocks, and even wall sections.
I was not kidding on the banning. You have no rights on someone else's forum. I read some studies a few years back on the subject, which found that communities and teams that lance toxic members are far more productive than those that don't, even if those members are productive themselves. This goes beyond game development, and is a general team/community building concept.
The reason I read up on it is because I came from a game dev team that had a small but very toxic element within a good team and community/playerbase about the same size of GOIO. It was subtle, though, more festering than outright hostility. Slowly, it tuned much of the dev team away from the community and more of the community away from the devs, and fractured the team itself. I was interested in what could have prevented it.
I was one of the three top associate writers there (under the lead lore and content director), in charge of the most secret histories (the ones that players wanted the most but would never get in full). The fractures came due to some of the artists, writers, and coders siding with one part of the community and trying to work with them. Another part of the team basically had enough of the small toxic element (the loudest voices, not the most) and said "Screw them. They don't know what they want. We do." This, of course, created a rift between team members (some of which were part of the toxic element). People would often just work on their own little projects to help whichever faction they sided with. Development slowed to a crawl. In the end, I left on poor terms with the project creator and some of the people that got fed up. Most of the writers and artists left over the next year or two, taking much of the unsubmitted work with them. A great deal had to be restarted, I am told. The experience was so traumatic that I haven't really written anything since, and reflexively shy away from the lore of any game I play. Sad, really, since my primary skill is lore weaving.
Anyways, toxic people = bad. Get rid of them. There have been a few lately that would already be gone if it were up to me. They are unneeded, and have squandered the voice they had.
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While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.
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While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.
or they manage to become the reason why some players leave.
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and now the ethical debate begins
btw Richard, that sounds like an awesome job to have (excluding the whole toxic environment) I'm a big lorehound so writing that kind of stuff would be a dream job to me
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I am impressed that Muse has been able to uphold the "Community Standards" to the extent they have. When I first read that document, I figured it was just some high minded BS and that there would be no way to control the worst elements of internet behavior. I began to realize Muse was serious every time they took moderator action and either quoted that document or linked to it in its entirety.
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once upon a 2 years ago I remember MUSE checking the forums often, responding to not only criticism but also to general fanart, ideas and random topics that showed up here and there.
Today all I see on this forum is players attacking, blaming and demanding things from MUSE.
Like players who have been here 3-4 months acclaiming themselves to be veterans of the community with an anti new-player and elitist mindset that keeps blaming muse for their misfortune in games.
All ther eis to say about these players are simple, just stop playing the game. If you dont like the game, just leave. You arent entitled to put forward demands to muse about balance, content etc. You paid for a made game not for future updates. What you however are entitled to do if you want is give valid feedback on balance and specially on bug fixes.
Content wise this is the devs decision, and not any loud mouthed player who think he is worth more than other players in this community.
2 years ago the devs would gladly have listened to feedback on content, but today the constant content suggestions followed by throwing rocks at them for not doing what you want to happen is why they dont listen to us anymore.
As richard says there is only one way to deal with toxic people. - Remove them.
Every clan leader in this game can sign this:
If you have a member in your clan that is far out of line with the rules, or turning players inside the clan against eachother. You ban the player from your clan and fix the damage that was done.
The same goes for real life, a group of people with a person who does this is ejected from the group.
A coworker who is spreading toxic rumours, criticizing others and even questioning the leadership without reason is fired.
but here is the sad truth about all this.
MUSE has it in their power and right to remove any player from the game or forums.
THey are allowed to instantly ban someone for breaking their code of conduct etc.
But they cant.
MUSE cannot remove any players because the fear of repercussion.
Banning a player can imidiately result in someone going on a crusade trying to make muse look bad by spreading lies.
the player can give them a bad review based on them being banned for "no reason"
the player can start countless discussions on how muse are bad devs and silencing them for having an opinion, no matter how ridiculous that opinion is.
looking at that its easy to say, muse can handle this.
But here is the thing, any bad comments directed towards them, any bad review or player on a crusade is a problem. It makes them look bad and it takes them a lot of time and money to deal with it.
From my time with muse i can tell you that certain players who were removed took up to maybe 20 hours of a devs time to discuss things etc. time that could have been used on different things. - not to mention the stress level and decreasing trust in the players your game have.
I hope you dont think im an idiot now, and I dont hope you feel like I find myself more entitled to an opinion than yours.
I don't, I might have been here since release, but that doesnt mean my feedback matters more than others.
I think what needs to be done is that we stop discussing with the idiots and just focus on being the better players. Ignore them and eventually they will leave or come to terms that the game doesnt revolve around them.
again sorry for the semi-angry rant.
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While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.
There is a difference between having an opinion that is different, and being hostile and toxic. When you don't like something, state your opinion. If you don't think it will change no matter what you say. Leave. Being louder and more angry will not change things. I know this first hand from both sides.
The people that stay around and try to rally others to their hate, MUSE is teh bad camp need to be removed. You uninstalled the game? Good for you. I hope you find a place that suits you better. Say your goodbyes and move on. Come back and visit if you want. What? You want to stay around and shriek about all the wrong things and try to get others to quit as well and do the same? Sorry, ban.
You have great ideas you don't think are being followed? Hollering and spiting vitriol will not help your cause. Ban with an invitation to come back when you learn to articulate your point better.
Speaking your opinion is a right, yes. Doing it in a toxic and demotivational manner is not. Keeping those people around will not alleviate stagnation. Rather, they will promote festering.
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I don't think Toxic describes it, moreso just Salty or Butthurt. This would be, of course, depending on your definition of the term, however I wouldn't compare current community setting's to other games that have devolved into absolute Toxicity.
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It's mostly new players (lower than level 20 or 15) who act like this. Those of us who've been around for a while behave as maturely as expected. I do agree some more moderation is needed for now, though.
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I don't think Toxic describes it, moreso just Salty or Butthurt. This would be, of course, depending on your definition of the term, however I wouldn't compare current community setting's to other games that have devolved into absolute Toxicity.
No offense, David, but...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SCb-op-Q3IE/VUphXVMoRlI/AAAAAAACCBc/AvwxhQpI3fU/w426-h307/15%2B-%2B1)
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IMHO "Dealing" with toxic personalities has various implications:
First and foremost it is hard to define objectively most of the toxic behaviors. It is as old as humanity itself and still not completely explored by psychology and literature. Individuality and rhetoric plays such a preponderant role in the definition of "toxic" that it might be impossible to reach a wide consensus for each case that could be brought up, leading to dangerous semplifications. Essentially what someone calls toxic is exclusively the partial perception of a behavior warped by personal preconceptions and peer pressure. IMHO then there is never any toxicity in any community but instead a paradigm change in the way personalities react to each other and the external forces, leading to a shift in the language modules, the interaction processes and eventually the creation of a new epistemology that correctly reflect the actual state of affairs.
I'll use myself as a guinea pig to show what I mean.
Some people here like me and might be curious of me, some people instead see me as an arrogant know-it-all just dropped in this establishment, acting without the honors that others did earn in the years. Essentially some people think I am an usurper that should hold his tongue more, Toxic to a degree. Timezone differences mean I played only with an handful of the forum goers, sometimes well, sometimes bad, mostly with mediocrity. My association with Byron as [TB] also plays a big part on the way an observer could interpret my actions and words, leading to a transfer from him to me of old attrition of which I have absolute no control, neither has Byron and neither has the third party involved.
Now the problem with this mindset applied to my person is that it is right but not true. Whatever is the perception of another personality here, it must be considered false since the medium itself lacks the fundamental elements with which a functioning human defines another human according to his/her own scale of values. Essentially this forum is a peeping hole in a dim room for what it concerns personalities, behavior and general morality. Yet we rapidly adapt to the medium, acquiring more information from it than it would be efficient in the presence of another concurring medium, leading to an accurate perception of a false value. In synthesis, to whomever I appear to be an arrogant know-it-all, mildly toxic, i can say that they are right but only in the minuscule confines of their own value and ethical structure applied to this forum, essentially solipsistic.
The second problem with addressing the Toxic Elements is the spreading of consensus through straw man proclamation, rhetoric and cycle jerking. Exactly what happens here. By saying "The community is getting toxic", like minded individuals and vocal close knit minorities can push an involuntary ethical agenda, changing the consensus on a previously nonexistent problem. Once the argument is brought forward, the initial concept can evolve in the most dangerous ways. It has been already wrote about banning in a very nonchalant tone, especially ironic for the community of a game that refuses kicking or banning no matter how vocally is requested. It is very dangerous of talking about evil without a practical solution, because then the lesser evil can gain momentum and the tools developed initially for a good cause can be easily bent for individual purposes.
What I suggest is engaging in private communication when a toxic behavior is spotted (pun intended), excluding the community from the discourse so that problems can be dealt on a one-on-one basis. A truly toxic behavior will then lead to an increasing amount of personal messages, eventually leading to shift in behavioral pattern without the public shaming and antagonism that could instead lead the target in the opposite direction.
bests,
[Know-it-all]MagKel :-P
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Sadly I have to agree with skrim and richard more or less completely :(
Also get the impression that muse does not participate on the forums anymore because the general tone has gotten louder, more agressive, entitled etc. It's really up to us (normal players, cas, mods) to politely tell these people to cut it out, their tone is not productive. Several time I've wanted to say it but have been warned before for backseat moderating :P
TL;DR the solution is more active moderation. I really would like muse to trust us enough to participate in general discussions again :\
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I recall a recent thread where devs did step in to talk and bandy words with some amusing context. A few people yelled at them for it, saying they deserved more. I don't understand this mindset.
But again, I restate that it is still at a manageable few people. I wonder... what would happen if you had a special hidden forum called the 'Ragepit', and let people request being admitted. One of the main issues with the 'entitled rager' is they think everyone agrees with them, but are not saying anything for fear of retribution of some sort. Make a place where people can say whatever they want (aside from hate speech) with limited moderation, away from the eyes of anyone not signed up. Curious what would happen when very few people showed up.
Not saying it should be done. Just an interesting thought experiment.
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That sounds like the explanation I was given to a phenomenon called "thought germs" (it sounded more professional when the other guy said it), in which the participants involved in a feud between two groups would have no contact with the other group, but instead would discuss among themselves how much they hated the other group.
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Ah. Echo chambers. They end up creating a worse version of the enemy than actually exists by feeding each other's assumptions and biases.
Would this be the video you spoke of? https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc Love that guy.
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That is the exact video, and it's why I think all things should be voiced at first thought. Even if the speaker thinks it is bad
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I've been a part of a lot of online communities. The best ones are the ones where posts that attack people, are vitriolic, or aggressive get deleted/blanked, and people who can't learn to communicate without being aggressive or toxic are banned.
I'd like to see more active moderation. It doesn't have to be bans, even, at least at first. Just /modhat "Post has been deleted for being off-topic." /modhat "Post has been deleted for being confrontational." Just remove the offending posts. It prevents further replies, and the argument from spiraling further into negativity, or becoming more off-topic.
It has an effect. It cleans away the grime. Anyone driven off by it isn't worth having in the community anyway.
There should be no pretensions of "Freedom of Speech" or "Right to be negative."
Neither of those exist on a forum. A forum is a community, and those moderating that community have the right to regulate it as they see fit.
What you do have is the responsibility to contribute in a productive, mature, and non-hostile manner. Sure, you can disagree, and sure, you can debate. However, if you can't debate without attacking someone, resorting to insults, or strawmanning, then you probably shouldn't be talking.
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I've been a part of a lot of online communities. The best ones are the ones where posts that attack people, are vitriolic, or aggressive get deleted/blanked, and people who can't learn to communicate without being aggressive or toxic are banned.
Exactly what Muse doesn't do...ban people. Or kick buttons, or anything a dev does to keep the scum out of their communities. Myself and others have been critical of the CA system for awhile just because they have no real ability to stop toxic people. They then have to sit there and be verbally abused and take it with a smile.
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Just to point out, Muse posted in another thread that they are gonna start taking a more active role in community moderation so whatever that means.
Chipping in my 2c on the topic. I don't really see too much toxicity in this community compared to say Dota 2 or EVE online, and even then those communities thrive with all the bad apples. Take EVE for example, you have players whose sole purpose is to ruin other peoples days, the 'bad guys' aren't entirely shunned by the community as a whole (save for their victims) so I'm not gonna say that some loud mouthed players are to blame for all the communities problems.
I'm sure Muse would read their feedback and go 'Oh this special little snowflake' Look at this recent update for instance, a few bittervets left and made a ruckus about it. Muse is still going on their design plan and just readjusting the reasonable things with reasonable feedback provided by the reasonable community members.
It's not bad having these bad apples in our community since they can see things which most reasonable players wont be able to see. Keep them but put a leash on the primitive behavior.
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as gilder says the ca program is now currently only teachers/guides since they have no moderation powers.
the current moderators are chosen through consideration of keyvias and their peers in the moderation group.
That is a basic for creating a strong moderation group, however only ca´s are promoted which is a concerning matter since becoming ca isnt hard at all.
besides that a long term problem we had a while ago were that the moderators had no idea how to handle situations, there were no guides etc. afaik there should be a internal guide to modding now, but its use i dont know anything off.
Also there is no educating the current moderators, it feels like they are just expected to know how to do it, rather than actively educating them in situations etc.
in my opinion prior experience should be the defining factor for choosing a mod, ca´s who have shown a good show of handling dire situations should be eligible to apply, as well as regular players who have prior experience in moderating communites etc.
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Doesn't need to be a big manual. Lot is just common sense. I was in management at a water park and literally the company didn't spend a dime training people. Just referenced a two decade old manual but never made anyone read it (although the management before tested everyone on it). Most of the time they told us, general common sense and try not to piss the customer off too much. "Is the player being a troll?" Yes...ok kick. No...warn.
At a water park one bad guest doesn't ruin the day for everyone. If they cross the line, they get handcuffed and removed. Here, one toxic player can ruin numerous matches and they'll enjoy doing it and keep doing it as long as people are around or they aren't stopped. You can't go up to them and appease them. Muse needs to learn this. The damage they do is greater than the damage would be of kicking or banning. Literally they are like if a gang banger started flashing signs and feeling up female guests, we'd then call security and forcibly remove them and likely have them arrested by the local sheriff. Regular folks would take pictures then go back about their business. But they'd feel safer knowing the park wouldn't tolerate toxic people. There is the time to appease an unhappy person, and the time to just remove them. When their behavior crosses the line, kick, remove.
If it isn't in the TOS then update it and make people sign a new one. No one will read it anyways, just click accept. If they throw a fit, just point to the line that says,"Harassing B'Elanna is a perma ban offense and Muse games reserves the right to hire someone to put a flaming bag of dog crap on your doorstep." Problem solved!
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common sense is a broad term and different for everyone.
common sense for someone in england and someone in russia can be completely different.
I were to a debate where a danish politician of christian descent said that human rights should be removed, because the bible provided enough guidelines on the matter.
When asked on how to treat people she answered, just use sense. when asked what kind of sense would be reasonable, she replied common sense.
If we dont use guidelines and dont educate the people to a specific "how to" then common sense is a long shot at what moderator happen to be handling the situation.
Some moderators are happy to just kick and ban if they have a friend in need, some require more insight and proof from both parties.
i´d also argue that there is a significant difference between dealing with someone in real life, having that person handcuffed with force, and banning someone over the internet where threats are only vocal or written.
The toxicity is currently not at a state of direct harrassment, that should be a direct ban obviously. - we dont see a lot of this on the forums, maybe ingame i dont really pay attention to it if it happens. - usually this ends up with the people responsible being warned and then banned later.
And then again I do believe that people deserve the warn -> kick -> ban treatment. Banning imidiately is not a way to treat anyone. Any player can have a bad day and snap at someone its just being a person.
The usual situation I have seen about this is a player harrasses another player, the CA asks the player to stop and leave the lobby etc. Then the player insult the ca which earns him a kick from the game. The player either comes back and earns a ban or stay silent and dont come back.
I have seen many times how Vesa managed to talk trolls and harassers out of being banned by making them realize their mistakes. - its just a better way to treat people before you ban them.
But the current problem is that some players feel entitled to direct muse, aswell as criticize everything they do not only once, but repeatedly in several emails, forum posts, ingame etc. Trying to make crusades to enforce their will, or they will either leave/give a bad review/give muse a bad reputation.
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The usual situation I have seen about this is a player harrasses another player, the CA asks the player to stop and leave the lobby etc. Then the player insult the ca which earns him a kick from the game. The player either comes back and earns a ban or stay silent and dont come back.
I have seen many times how Vesa managed to talk trolls and harassers out of being banned by making them realize their mistakes. - its just a better way to treat people before you ban them.
Community Ambassadors Do not police the game we are teachers / Guides for the game. Maybe you meant to say Mod and not CA but Ca's do not ask players to leave lobbies nor do they threaten players. If we find a troubled player the most we do is file a report or ask for a Mod to come handle the situation. I strongly disagree with a lot of what you have said but you do make some small good points as well and that's where I will leave it at that.
o7
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Community Ambassadors Do not police the game we are teachers / Guides for the game. Maybe you meant to say Mod and not CA but Ca's do not ask players to leave lobbies nor do they threaten players. If we find a troubled player the most we do is file a report or ask for a Mod to come handle the situation. I strongly disagree with a lot of what you have said but you do make some small good points as well and that's where I will leave it at that.
o7
Are you talking on your own behalf or the entire ca staff? ;)
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As far as I know CA's don't have the power to Kick people out of lobby. There have been several instances where a CA has been in a game and a player really needed to be kicked off their ship (AFK for more than 15 minutes in the captain slot) and the CA couldn't do anything about it. CA Mods on the other hand do have the power to kick people off ships, force games to start and probably a few other neat tricks. Muse tagged users have even more power. I hear they can Nerf your favorite gun and add new game mechanics just to piss you off.
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As far as I know CA's don't have the power to Kick people out of lobby. There have been several instances where a CA has been in a game and a player really needed to be kicked off their ship (AFK for more than 15 minutes in the captain slot) and the CA couldn't do anything about it. CA Mods on the other hand do have the power to kick people off ships, force games to start and probably a few other neat tricks. Muse tagged users have even more power. I hear they can Nerf your favorite gun and add new game mechanics just to piss you off.
/Call down the power of Thor to smite you
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(https://angestudyantesaseptictank.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/passive-aggressive.jpg)
;)
Oh, I recall my days as a dev. I had all kinds of powers. I could kill players, create storms, make it so foggy you could not see, then change the color of that fog to any color I wanted, along with turning the sky red. We only enacted those powers during events, though. I made black fog and red skies and stacked furniture for one Halloween, then randomly levitated players. Another time, we basically ended the world for an update. All sorts of hell went down. We had been building up to that point for weeks, dropping little hints here and there, writing massive amounts of lore that was about to be revealed, and orchestrating all sorts of 'happenstance' events. Last thing players saw before the server went down was complete black as we filled all areas with 100% black fog (blind), and a server message "Prepare for update." The community basically exploded in excitement. I was personally in change of a good portion of it. So much fun... Then, of course, the project leader who OKed it called it off after the event went down and basically undercut the entire Settings team that had worked for months to get to that point. Server went back up unchanged. The reason was never fully given. The coders said it was ready. Moral hit the fan.