Guns Of Icarus Online

Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 08:20:58 am

Title: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 08:20:58 am
(http://i.imgur.com/GXYU5Mx.png)

The Community eSports Sky League is a six-week tournament starting with two weeks of group stage that seed into a single-elimination bracket, which will run at 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC from March 22nd to April 26th. The new premiere event for Guns of Icarus Online, Sky League will provide both teams and spectators with the highest level of airship competition! This will be a Community eSports production.

Signups begin now and end on March 15th. Here is a link to the signups thread:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3561.0.html


Tournament Format (graphic (http://i.imgur.com/YJAG1XX.png)):

Ruleset:

Group Stage (March 22nd & 29th):
   
Single-Elimination Bracket Stage (April 5th - April 26th):

Prizes:

Each member of the first place team will receive a copy of the upcoming Adventure Mode (when it is released), a championship badge to display on their in-game profile, and five cosmetic items of their choice from the in-game store.

The second place team will each receive a gift copy of Guns of Icarus Online, and five cosmetic items of their choice from the in-game store.


Broadcast:

Sky League will be dual streamed live each Saturday at 4pm EDT (8pm UTC).
VODs will be available after the fact on the Community eSports YouTube channel.


(http://www.cesports.org/sites/all/themes/negosyante/logo.png)
www.cesports.org (http://www.cesports.org)

As always, you can contact me (Urz) here on the forums or via email (http://i.imgur.com/xTjkvAS.png).
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 08:26:23 am
Thanks to Byron for making the sweet logo!
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Byron Cavendish on February 21, 2014, 08:26:47 am
Woot woot!
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 09:37:48 am
Quote
•Crews and substitutes - once a player crews for a team, they are locked to that team. There will be a one-time reset of crew status on April 13th, at the halfway point of the tournament.

Not a fan of this bit. It really hurts the potential of co-op teams coming in, unless that was your intent.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 09:47:24 am
Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 09:37:48 am
Quote
•Crews and substitutes - once a player crews for a team, they are locked to that team. There will be a one-time reset of crew status on April 13th, at the halfway point of the tournament.
Not a fan of this bit. It really hurts the potential of co-op teams coming in, unless that was your intent.

How does it affect co-op teams more than non-co-op teams?
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Shinkurex on February 21, 2014, 09:54:51 am
We would have to create 2 separate pools for subs, instead of having a couple for both teams. This was discussed back when you had called everyone in to discuss, and if I recall a potential compromise was to lock the sub to the team for a couple of weeks instead.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 09:56:21 am
Well non co-op teams (ie, a clan team) will have a team and be done and dusted. If two clans wanted to make a co-op team, be it because they have extra people around or they are too small to field their own team, that stipulation is off-putting (to me anyway). With that in there, I have no want to make another co-op team with my extra members, and I feel itll limit who actually puts a team in.



Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: redria on February 21, 2014, 10:35:07 am
I... want to be a fan of this, but I have concerns. Isn't this a tournament, not a league? A league implies regular matches that last for a season. This is an elimination tournament. Sure, it is spread out over 8 weeks, but if you lose out in the group stage (which I don't fully understand, and the graphic doesn't give a better explanation), you can only lose once more before you are out for the tournament season. To make a comparison, this is like american football doing away with the regular season, treating the pre-season as a seeding system, and skipping straight to the playoffs. Oh, and if you lose in the preseason, instead of just being poorly seeded, you are given a straight up disadvantage.

Am I just not understanding something here? Because I want to like this. But it doesn't really have a league or seasonal feel. Just another tournament: one that is dragged out.

-Edit-
Welp, re-read that and it calls itself a tournament. Huh. This is not really the direction I would have liked to see this go. I'll be honest on that. I recognize that COGS may have not been the best system, but for the premiere "league" to just be a slowly run tournament... Meh. I never had the opportunity to be part of the discussion on designing this, but I'm kinda bummed out that this is the big reveal. Oh well.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 10:39:59 am
The 'compromise' was that the subs are reset halfway (four weeks) into the event.

This is the same sub rule used in both of my previous large tournaments, and as far as I'm aware there were no significant issues derived from it. Subs will only become attached to a team after the first time they've played, so at the beginning of the tournament all your subs would be in the same pool. It's also important to note that a given team will play a maximum of either five or six (one team will play six) of the eight weeks.

Ultimately it is up to you to evaluate how many teams you are able to support.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 10:57:17 am
Quote
"and as far as I'm aware there were no significant issues derived from it."

You can check your skype logs for an example of a significant issue deriving from sub rules during the Anvalan Conflict.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 11:27:21 am
Quote from: redria on February 21, 2014, 10:35:07 am
To make a comparison, this is like american football doing away with the regular season, treating the pre-season as a seeding system, and skipping straight to the playoffs. Oh, and if you lose in the preseason, instead of just being poorly seeded, you are given a straight up disadvantage.

American football is a multi-billion dollar industry performed by professional athletes. I am a volunteer. Letonator is a volunteer. Our referees are volunteers. American football seasons are seven months long. Most of the teams in this game didn't exist seven months ago. You can make the comparison, but it is flawed in some significant ways.

This is by far the largest tournament I've organized for this game. There are limitations that must be considered, including how much of my time and energy I am able to devote to this, and the total duration teams can be expected to commit to an event. I decided that two to three months would be a good range to balance those things. Once that was set, there is only so much you can fit into that time span while keeping Saturdays manageable for everyone.

The name "Sky League" was chosen as it is planned to be an on-going event with multiple seasons. This first season is a pretty straight-forward tournament (as you pointed out), but as the community grows and the competitive side of the game evolves, I would like to explore other formats.

Quote from: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 10:57:17 am
Quote
"and as far as I'm aware there were no significant issues derived from it."
You can check your skype logs for an example of a significant issue deriving from sub rules during the Anvalan Conflict.

That is a fair point, although I feel that incident was as much caused by the unique scheduling structure of Anvalan Conflict as anything else. Everyone going into Sky League will know upfront when matches are going to be played from the start until the end.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 11:37:50 am
Quote from: Urz on February 21, 2014, 11:27:21 am
That is a fair point, although I feel that incident was as much caused by the unique scheduling structure of Anvalan Conflict as anything else. Everyone going into Sky League will know upfront when matches are going to be played from the start until the end.

Dedicated timing does indeed help. The take away lesson from the AC for the Ducks is we like dedicated times.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: redria on February 21, 2014, 11:49:08 am
I guess I just have a different view of what the premiere event in GoIO should be. Since nothing will change, I'll not make a scene, but if there is discussion at some point in the future, I hope I have the opportunity to participate (as in please make it an open discussion, not closed door).

Regardless, the volunteers for these events do a wonderful job, and noone can deny that. We all appreciate your efforts. Thank you.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Byron Cavendish on February 21, 2014, 12:29:58 pm
I am confused, what exactly is the issue? We have a new exciting event here to compete in. Are we really gonna give him a hard time over something he labored on for free, for nothing in return? That's really sad, shame on you guys.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 12:36:49 pm
"Giving him a hard time" and asking about an aspect of his new event are different things. I wouldn't call it "giving him a hard time."
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 12:39:11 pm
Seriously Byron. Besides maybe you should reread some of your posts in Cogs thread.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Shinkurex on February 21, 2014, 12:45:16 pm
Let's keep this civil guys
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 01:35:38 pm
Apologies. I wasn't trying to be snide but simply point out that you often see posts criticizing these events.  There is nothing wrong with doing do.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Shinkurex on February 21, 2014, 02:53:20 pm
No worries, and I do agree that this is typical of what we see with these threads.

A question for Urz. What rules have been modified due to the conversation we had prior to this thread?
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Thomas on February 21, 2014, 04:44:52 pm
Do you need a full group of 8 people, or can you fly with AI? Can one clan bring multiple teams (different players on each team of course)? Is there a 'maximum' number of players you can have on a team (such as a team with 40 members, with different people playing each time under the same team name)?

Are teams removed if they're caught exploiting/ghosting or such? Disconnects and bugs showing up? (keep spawning off the ship, ship doesn't respawn, has the tutorial overlay, etc)


Logo is amazing btw.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Puppy Fur on February 21, 2014, 05:34:43 pm
I like the simple rules and prizes. I feel the sub lock is needed. The prizes are worth getting. Good good.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Mr. Ace Rimmer on February 22, 2014, 06:13:09 am
I must say Urz that you and Leto have done a fine job. You listened to our concerns and made changes where apropriate without damaging the vision you both had.

To Redria: Although behind closed doors, there were 3 out of four OVW leadership involved in the conversation (raising points based on a co-decision) along with a representative from Muse games. To my knowledge this is the first time that almost all the clan leaders have 'sat down at a table' and held a discussion on a tournament system. I can't thank Urz and Leto enough for how open they were with the process and how much they listened to and respected our concerns. That goes double for the clan leaders who participated in the conversation.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Shinkurex on February 22, 2014, 08:12:17 am
No seriously... What's changed? all I see is a simplified version of what was given to us in the first place
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Mr. Ace Rimmer on February 22, 2014, 08:23:43 am
Bracket names were changed. The ban condition appears to be gone. The change to the substitute rule was implemented (reset half way.) I'm sure there are more changes in there somewhere.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 22, 2014, 08:34:11 am
Quote from: Shinkurex on February 22, 2014, 08:12:17 am
No seriously... What's changed? all I see is a simplified version of what was given to us in the first place

There were two subjects which generated the most feedback in that meeting. The first was worries that locking subs for two months was too long, which led to the additional clause resetting sub status at the four week point. The second was repercussions for bailing on scheduled matches (suspension). That is still in place, however the policy document still needs to be cleaned up before it can be posted (waiting on Dan).

There was very little feedback about the structure of the tournament itself, so I'm not sure why you were expecting something different.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 22, 2014, 08:48:56 am
Quote from: Thomas on February 21, 2014, 04:44:52 pm
Do you need a full group of 8 people, or can you fly with AI? Can one clan bring multiple teams (different players on each team of course)? Is there a 'maximum' number of players you can have on a team (such as a team with 40 members, with different people playing each time under the same team name)?

You are expected to show up to your matches with 8 human players. There's no limit on clans submitting multiple teams, each team is treated as a separate entity. There is also no limit on how many players may compete on a given team over the course of the season (as long as the substitute rule is accounted for).

Quote
Are teams removed if they're caught exploiting/ghosting or such? Disconnects and bugs showing up? (keep spawning off the ship, ship doesn't respawn, has the tutorial overlay, etc)

I'll paste here the relevant passages from current revision of the policy document (this may not be the final wording but gives the gist).

Should a Referee find that a rule or regulation has been broken and affected the match, it is at their discretion to stop the match and correct the issue in the most appropriate way possible according the the guidelines set out in this section.
...
Major complications, including complicated bugs, game breaking exploits, or extremely unfair conduct should be addressed immediately, with the Referee instituting a pause in the action and having both teams return to spawns, or in the case of a game that cannot be reset or an issue that has permanently affected the current game/score, a return to the lobby and new start will be requested by the Referee.
...
Repeated offenses will be taken into consideration when accepting invitations to subsequent tournaments, and may result in temporary or permanent suspensions from the tournament.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 22, 2014, 11:53:12 am
This is not my fight and I know the people it concerns aren't interested in fighting it, however I feel something must be mentioned.

This was not just a Cesports production. Letonater, the Dan from The Rob And Dan Show, was a major part of putting this together and one of the main reasons people were willing to look past previous frictions between Cesports, the Community, and Muse. However there are some troubling characteristics about this announcement. The pre-eminence of of the Cesports branding is amazingly troublesome as this was supposed to be a new event that was neither Cogs or Cesports. In addition, the only mention of Leto is a mention that there will be some streaming on his channel. Without any knowledge of the putting together of all this, all one could infer from this announcement, is that Leto is just a streamer under the Cesports brand when in reality he is much more to this tournament than just a camera and commentator.

So why am I concerned about all this? It is just a name after all, correct? My motive for posting this is that naming matters as it implies ownership. We've been seeing a massive consolidation of the competitive scene in the last months and I feel many where okay because it was both Urz and Leto. I was able to look past my clan's previous issues with Urz because I knew that I could trust Leto to make sure things were welcoming to all clans. I still trust Leto, but the way this has been rolled out strongly implies that trust would not be met with power to ensure this is a welcoming community.

I promised Duck support of this, and trust me, I really want there to be as you said a "new premiere event for Guns of Icarus Online, Sky League will provide both teams and spectators with the highest level of airship competition!" So here is all that needs to be done to fix this. Publicly recognize the contributions of Leto and ease on slapping your branding everywhere. As things stand, Byron receives more credit for the production of this than Leto. In no way should recognizing the role and work that Leto has put into this should be controversial or difficult and it would mean a lot for myself and many members of my clan.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Captain Smollett on February 22, 2014, 12:30:40 pm
In my experience leniency in substitution rules is good for teams and good for tournaments.  It allows teams to always be able to play, even in the most extreme situations and it allows more teams in general to enter a tournament, since teams won't feel obligated to have an extensive set of reserves (that wind up not getting to compete most of the time).

There was some tournament a while ago that necessitated 5 out of the original crew that signed up show to every event  and subs couldn't play for more than one team a day.

This always seemed pretty fair to me. As far as I know there' never really been a problem with people using subs. When I competed I never would have preferred any sub over the crew I practiced and played with consistently so it's difficult for me to imagine a situation where getting a sub who may have played for another team gives a team any sort of advantage.

Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on February 22, 2014, 12:58:34 pm
I've updated the announcement to mention TheRobAndDanShow at the beginning.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 22, 2014, 01:46:10 pm
I genuinely appreciate it.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Tropo on February 27, 2014, 11:50:06 pm
urz  and leto well done looks awesome. my team will decide weather we sign up this weekend
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on March 02, 2014, 11:23:34 am
aw man looks so awesome well done urz and company.. and as i have said in previous threads i have popped my head in, good to see that things still haven't changed within the community!   
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: Urz on March 12, 2014, 03:10:08 am
I've updated the original post to take daylight saving time into account. Each day of the tournament will start at 8pm UTC, which means that if your country is going into daylight savings time in the next couple weeks, the start time will change for you during the tournament. I've included converted time links for the first three weeks of Sky League so you can double check the start times in your locale.

Week 1 (3/22)
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Sky+League+Week+1+%28Group+Stage%29&iso=20140322T20&p1=1440

Week 2 (3/29)
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Sky+League+Week+2+%28Group+Stage%29&iso=20140329T20

Week 3 (4/5)
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Sky+League+Week+3+%28Bracket+Round+1%29&iso=20140405T20
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - May 10th)
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2014, 04:57:46 pm
So the format presented is designed to work with 16 teams... As the signups are currently at 16 and could easily go higher, how is the format going to change to adapt to that?
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: redria on March 24, 2014, 08:38:35 am
So... As someone who didn't like the idea of this being a tournament format in the first place, and would still like to see a format where each team plays every week...

I have to give credit to Urz and the casters for making this exciting. Maybe I would feel differently if my team had been knocked out 2 days ago, but I had a blast. My heart was racing during each game. Going back and watching the videos I couldn't sit still (despite knowing how they would end). Heck, I even got to make Brick curse on stream. That certainly makes that death a little less painful.

Just as much credit goes to the stellar competition. I know this is only beginning, but I want to thank every team competing in this before we go any further. Sacrilege especially for being excellent sports with all of the DC problems we both had during our match.

I look forward to facing those left standing after this weekend.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Tropo on March 24, 2014, 09:08:40 am
tip of the hat to you too sir mr redira
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 10:28:56 am
Yeah, it's kind of sad to see some great teams get ejected this early, but it did make for some intense matches. And of course all the added fun in the Tipping thread.

I'm guessing the Bracket stage is still best of 3? Might not be too late to make it a best of one and change back to a double elimination~

Or perhaps some third party can run their own lower bracket to see what could have been.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 11:51:34 am
I definitely enjoyed watching the matches.  I still believe best of 1 matches are the most exciting to spectate and play in.  You really can't rival the suspense and tension it creates.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 12:10:42 pm
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 11:51:34 am
I definitely enjoyed watching the matches.  I still believe best of 1 matches are the most exciting to spectate and play in.  You really can't rival the suspense and tension it creates.
It works in double elimination formats, but I don't much like it in single, too much random crap can happen.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Alistair MacBain on March 24, 2014, 01:54:28 pm
I agree with Imagine.
While BO1 has its moments its to random for a single elimination bracket.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 03:14:43 pm
I wouldn't use the word random, more like unexpected, and it just makes it more exciting. 

Whichever team makes the fewest mistakes wins, it's just as much about mental toughness as skill, allows teams to surprise their enemies with unexpected tactics and tests them to see if they can react and adjust.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Omniraptor on March 24, 2014, 03:54:59 pm
Random definitely applies. Best of 1 doesn't leave enough room for random error caused by external factors like lag, crashes, whatever. Mostly lag.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Skrimskraw on March 24, 2014, 04:13:10 pm
to be honest I though about pulling the thralls out due to the rules changes that wouldnt allow all teams to be seeded into the bracket. best of 1 I can agree with for seeding purposes, but bot for the actual tournament.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 05:05:05 pm
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 03:14:43 pm
I wouldn't use the word random, more like unexpected, and it just makes it more exciting. 

Whichever team makes the fewest mistakes wins, it's just as much about mental toughness as skill, allows teams to surprise their enemies with unexpected tactics and tests them to see if they can react and adjust.
It's not just that, it's also maps. Some teams are going to be better on some maps than others, so having a bo3 will give you a lot more accurate count of who's better skilled overall, and not just better at a particular map.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 05:31:52 pm
Quote from: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 05:05:05 pm
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 03:14:43 pm
I wouldn't use the word random, more like unexpected, and it just makes it more exciting. 

Whichever team makes the fewest mistakes wins, it's just as much about mental toughness as skill, allows teams to surprise their enemies with unexpected tactics and tests them to see if they can react and adjust.
It's not just that, it's also maps. Some teams are going to be better on some maps than others, so having a bo3 will give you a lot more accurate count of who's better skilled overall, and not just better at a particular map.
Well that can lead to the same result as a best of one.
The first map is random-ish, and the team that's better at that map is going to win.
The losing team picks the next map, something they're generally better. They could lose it here or win it.
If the team that won the first match loses the second match, they get to pick a map they're better at and have a high chance of winning.

That first map plays the largest role in determining the overall winner. That's not saying teams can't come back and get two wins, but I would suggest that it's very uncommon. I'd have to go and check the past match videos to verify that however.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 05:37:21 pm
Quote from: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 05:31:52 pm
Quote from: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 05:05:05 pm
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 03:14:43 pm
I wouldn't use the word random, more like unexpected, and it just makes it more exciting. 

Whichever team makes the fewest mistakes wins, it's just as much about mental toughness as skill, allows teams to surprise their enemies with unexpected tactics and tests them to see if they can react and adjust.
It's not just that, it's also maps. Some teams are going to be better on some maps than others, so having a bo3 will give you a lot more accurate count of who's better skilled overall, and not just better at a particular map.
Well that can lead to the same result as a best of one.
The first map is random-ish, and the team that's better at that map is going to win.
The losing team picks the next map, something they're generally better. They could lose it here or win it.
If the team that won the first match loses the second match, they get to pick a map they're better at and have a high chance of winning.

That first map plays the largest role in determining the overall winner. That's not saying teams can't come back and get two wins, but I would suggest that it's very uncommon. I'd have to go and check the past match videos to verify that however.
Two things:
1) We've never had teams picking maps afaik.
2) While most games end in 2-0, you're still more likely to have the team that's actually better (if for nothing else, that particular day) win out.

What you're not going to have (for the most part) is some team be really good at only sniping (or the other team being just bad at playing against it), and getting lucky with having their map being on Dunes and winning that way in a one and out.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 05:37:42 pm
I just kind of like the suspense where every match is make it or break it.  It also leads to shorter casts and shorter wait times for the teams.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 05:43:08 pm
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2014, 05:37:42 pm
I just kind of like the suspense where every match is make it or break it.  It also leads to shorter casts and shorter wait times for the teams.
Don't disagree. Just saying I like to see double elimination if bo1 is the case, something which at least these group stages provide :)
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 06:14:30 pm
Ah, I was thinking the Leviathan where the loser picks. But after going back through the CeSports videos, the 20 or so I looked at, the loser of the first match only came back to win twice. So 90%+ of the time winning the first match means you're probably going to win the best of three.


Overall I think having a best of one is more exciting and intense for both participants and viewers, and it would be awesome to adjust the bracket portion of the tournament to reflect this, but re-apply the double elimination condition, allowing the teams who get eliminated in the Group stage a chance to come back.

By announcing the map ahead of time, like in the group stage, you remove that 'luck' factor of getting maps you're good at. You know what map it's going to be, and you can prepare for that, instead of hoping you get something you're good at and something the enemy isn't as good at. Essentially there's no "Well, they're better at these kind of maps" excuses, since both teams knew what they were getting into well in advance.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Frogger on March 24, 2014, 06:39:03 pm
I for one vastly favor the Best of 1 approach. Having one's Saturday or Sunday eaten up by 3-4 hours of Bo3s is exhausting. It's more fun both to play and to watch.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Mr. Ace Rimmer on March 24, 2014, 06:42:38 pm
I too like the idea of Bo1 double elimination. However, perhaps that is best for another tournament as to ask Urz to redraw the brackets now for a double elimination just seem a little bit selfish of us considering the work already put in.

On that note though, I'm struggling to see why we have two top seed matches in round one with a second seed exclusive match. Surely it was possible to have only one set of top seeds facing each other in R1.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Imagine on March 24, 2014, 06:57:54 pm
I mean as for group stages you already had double elimination. No need to bring the teams back for fairness sake.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 24, 2014, 07:14:19 pm
Quote from: Mr. Ace Rimmer on March 24, 2014, 06:42:38 pm
On that note though, I'm struggling to see why we have two top seed matches in round one with a second seed exclusive match. Surely it was possible to have only one set of top seeds facing each other in R1.

Fully agreed. To me it looks like E2 is actually a better seed than E1 because of all that.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 07:54:24 pm
I wouldn't mind sacrificing some time to use my sub-par GIMP skills to redraw the brackets. Actually might do it for fun anyways now. xD

Not sure what you mean by the top seed and second seed stuff.

As far as I can tell it would be to cut down on the number of matches in R1, since they're currently slated for best of three. Which could mean up to 12 matches, with only two or so being steamed at a time. If you bring in all the teams at once, that'd be up to 18 matches. Already it's stretched pretty thin.

I think it was set the way it was for the time constraints as well as some fairness. the X2 teams have already lost one match, where the X1 teams haven't. However, the E group fought more matches than the other groups (or at least E2 will).


Now if it was switch to best of one, you cut down the possible number of matches by 3. So we'd only have 4 matches in R1, and only 2 in R0. Which should conclude fairly rapidly, and opens up the possibility of adding back in the 'lower bracket'  to keep the party hopping.

That being said, with some teams already dropping out, and some more likely to drop out, and the weird size of group E; creating a lower bracket would be both a hassle, and probably have to be done after the next group matches. I'm still for it, and will probably draw up some concepts after next weekend, but I can completely understand not including for the sake of simplicity.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Urz on March 24, 2014, 09:47:59 pm
Bracket seeding was created with the following conditions:

"1" seeds get seeded into round 1
"2" seeds get seeded into round 0
"E2" is upgraded to a "1" seed since they potentially have to play additional matches to advance
No two teams from the same group will play in the bracket before the finals


As for best of ones in the bracket stage, there are two primary reasons that will not happen. The first is that I will not change the structure of a tournament after it has already started (an exception would be made if the tournament would otherwise be cancelled or not finish). Teams have played matches with the understanding that they will either advance or be eliminated during the group stage. To change that after such determinations have already been made would compromise the fairness of the event; in this case it would be a decision biased towards the teams who were eliminated last weekend.

Secondly (and something which has already been brought up in this thread), a best of one can easily be decided by a game bug, advantageous map roll, or a single mistake. "Best of three" format mitigates those scenarios, none of which are good for the state of competition. This is the reason all my events have been Bo3 in bracket stage despite Bo1 being the precedent prior to CeSports, and since Sky League is intended as a high level competition to determine who is the best in the game, matches in bracket stage would be Bo3 regardless.

That being said, a thought I had after Saturday's matches was that if the smaller weekly events return (eg Sunday Rumble), they could be best of one. As they are lower stakes and you can just sign up for the next week if you're eliminated, it would be a reasonable compromise to increase turnout and reduce the fatigue of all involved.

Feedback is definitely welcome, as if there is another season of Sky League, it will certainly go through some changes then.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 11:33:33 pm
In response to those reasons:

-The tournament was already dramatically changed. Although it hadn't gone into the matches yet, the sign-ups were closed and it was less than a week before the matches began. It had already 'started'. Essentially the format and rules we agreed to when everyone signed up were tossed out. That's like buying a car and instead having the dealership give you a truck. We do understand that it did have to happen because of the circumstances, but it does make that first line of reasoning fall apart.


-Most of the second points were debunked. Almost always if you win the first match, you're going to win a second one. Very very rarely does a team lose the first match to turn it around for a double win. An advantageous map has nothing to do with best of three or best of one, that's just from having random maps. Instead they should be announced ahead of time, as this removes the luck factor entirely. Teams can then prepare for that map and their enemy, leading to a much higher level of strategy and gameplay. Bugs and lag are treated the same in Bo3 and Bo1, and they effect these matches the exact same way. Having more matches does not necessarily mean that they'll have a smaller impact. Big issues result in a pause or reset, and there's not much you can do for lag. You can see how small their impact is on the outcome by remember that whoever wins the first round is 90% more likely to win the overall match regardless.




I think the big points in favor of best of one is that it's a lot more fun to watch, and a lot more fun to participate in. Double elimination was the original intent of the tournament, and what a lot of teams were looking forward to. I really don't mind double or single, but if it was to switch to something more exciting than Bo3, there would be some time to fill, and it would be a lot of fun to see those great teams try to work their way back up to ultimate victory. Instead of watching the same teams fight 2 or 3 times in a row.

Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Urz on March 25, 2014, 12:14:41 am
The distinction between changing the tournament structure before or after matches have been played is important. Once matches have already been played, we know which teams will be affected more positively than others, and thus any change would be potentially biased towards the teams who benefit the most from it. The parenthesized exception is also important here, as if I hadn't made those changes prior to the tournament starting, it would have been cancelled outright. Comparing participation in a free tournament run for your enjoyment to a motor vehicle purchase is not a particularly apt analogy either.

The rest of your points are primarily based on flawed data interpretation, but I will indulge you with a more detailed explanation. Those '20 or so videos' you pulled from the CeSports channel were likely from the more recent weekly tournaments. Those are events in which any team can sign up, show up, play, and be knocked out in a couple hours. With Sky League, by contrast, before we even get to the bracket half the teams have been filtered out. It is also a much longer event where each match has more significance. A more apt comparison would be the last major tournament, Anvalan Conflict, where in four of the eleven matches the team who lost the first game came back to win the set (37%).

Now to address your points specifically...

On maps: your argument is that allowing both teams equal time to prepare means both teams will be equal on every map. That is incorrect and discounts how certain maps favour certain styles of play.

On bugs: if somebody disconnects during a key engagement and their team wipes because of it, I'm not sure how you can say that has the same impact on both a Bo3 and Bo1. To try and explain this in the simplest way I can: 2 deaths out of 5 total versus 2 deaths out of 10 or 15 total (or 1 game out of 1 versus 1 game out of 3).
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Thomas on March 25, 2014, 01:04:07 am
The thing about this tournament is that it's split into two sections, group and bracket. It's too late to change the group stage, since that's already happened. However, changing the bracket stage from bo3 to bo1 shouldn't be capable of giving one team an advantage over another. I'd say that the purchase of a vehicle is a decent analogy. Instead of money, we're committing our time and effort to participate in the tournament and make it successful, which provides entertainment for your viewers. If you want we can change it to signing up for a marathon only to have them change it to a 100-meter dash.

The data I used did come from the more recent videos where teams like the Ducks, Sac, The Gents, CSR, etc participate. Or 'the same exact groups that will be in this tournament'. There's also a lot more data to pull from. But it really depends on what data is chosen to be used and chosen to be ignored that really determine which way the statistics will go. And of course one of the biggest factors is the map luck.

maps: If you know what map is coming, and you know your playstyle doesn't work well on it, this gives you ample time to change or improve your playstyle for that map, which leads to a better match. This might actually be the biggest contributor to the belief that we need a best of three to determine who should win. If both teams know how things are going to go down, there's no excuses for 'well, my playstyle doesn't work well on this map', since they had the time to fix that.

bugs: It really depends on the bug. Most bugs and issues generally result in a pause of the match; and occasionally need a restart. Disconnecting in the middle of an engagement isn't all that common, at least as far as I'm aware. More importantly, bugs affect matches, not just kill counts. And even in Bo3, they try to have the most balanced matches possible. Pausing, resetting, etc when someone suffers a bug on that scale. This causes the matches to go much longer, and generally happens more than once. With a best of one, the total match time is much shorter since you only have to play one match. Making adjustments for critical bugs easier to accommodate.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Urz on March 25, 2014, 01:07:29 am
At this point we just disagree, so your opinion has been noted.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Omniraptor on March 25, 2014, 03:12:42 am
I would agree that knowing the map in advance would make the game more fun because it allows for deeper planning.
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: Lunalee on March 25, 2014, 03:57:13 pm
Quote from: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 11:33:33 pm

-Most of the second points were debunked. Almost always if you win the first match, you're going to win a second one. Very very rarely does a team lose the first match to turn it around for a double win.



We did!  :P
Title: Re: Community eSports Sky League (March 22nd - April 26th)
Post by: redria on March 25, 2014, 04:08:22 pm
Quote from: Lunalee on March 25, 2014, 03:57:13 pm
Quote from: Thomas on March 24, 2014, 11:33:33 pm

-Most of the second points were debunked. Almost always if you win the first match, you're going to win a second one. Very very rarely does a team lose the first match to turn it around for a double win.



We did!  :P
To be fair, that was against 3 completely different opponents. :P

If you guys want to continue this discussion, I suggest taking it over to the community event ideas compendium (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3756.msg65730.html#msg65730). I don't think the Sky league will/should change during this first season, but we can debate the merits of all the things competition related for the future.