- The spinning circles used to show someone on a gun how to aim are removed from the rangefinder, or at least an option is added for a player to disable them. There is nothing more annoying than shooting a gun when a novice on your ship starts rangefinding and the spinning circles start to block up your reticle.
- The rangefinder effect only works if the ship is first spotted by another player with a spyglass, and the range finder effect remains active until that ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover.
- The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)
- Once a ship is successfully marked by a rangefinder after already being spotted by a spyglass it displays the range of the ship in km from each ship on the spotting team as it does currently. This effect will remain active until the ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover and does not require constant spotting from the person using the rangefinder.
- Once a ship is marked by the rangefinder after being spotted by a spyglass a variation of the ship status UI currently in spectator mode is displayed next to the spotted ship showing: it's hull health, component cool-downs, which components are disabled, which components are on fire, the number of fire stacks on burning components, which components are chem-sprayed, and which components are buffed.
I would like to see the range of the ship if it's spotted with the rangefinder. I like the suggestions that you have posted here. The spinning circle has always bugged me and everybody I have played with. The last suggestion about showing the status of the ships is not needed. Let the team see the range of the ship when spotted and remove the spinning circle. There could also be a time limit on the range spot. Requiring the user to re-spot the ship after 25 secs or so.
This would essentially make 1 rangefinder "spot" for the entire team. I don't like that. Imagine a 3 vs. 3 or a 4 vs. 4... one rangefinder can give all those players this info? "Overpowered." I like the one-per-ship idea.
My suggestion: I think the best quality the rangefinder could give players is this: once a rangefinder is "used" on an already-spotted enemy ship, any crew mate on the rangefinding ship who is mounting a gun receives some sort of notification when an enemy comes within their mounted gun's maximum range. It alerts the shooters when firing their guns will allow the bullets to reach the enemy vessel. No more firing gatlings or carronades early... rangefinder will tell you when to open fire! 8)
No. Because then you'll likely have more than 1 rangefinder per ship, and we don't want that. Give the rangefinder and the spyglasses to the crew mates you trust to use them responsibly. Don't dumb it down. Rangefinder should be a bonus for crews who are smart enough to use it.
QuoteThis would essentially make 1 rangefinder "spot" for the entire team. I don't like that. Imagine a 3 vs. 3 or a 4 vs. 4... one rangefinder can give all those players this info? "Overpowered." I like the one-per-ship idea.Did you read my footnote - what do you think?
I like this idea, but it's already in the game (get ready for incoming secret about a stupid feature) - if you enable tutorial text the relevant components on enemy ships are hi-lighted and blink as soon as you get in range. Also I think that the range finder does this currently anyway with a x on the reticle.
I really don't see why this would make people take more than 1 rangefinder per ship. Also I don't see why that would be a bad thing if they did - what if the gunner was the only person with a spyglass and both engineers had range finders - the gunner is the person with the most free time to spot ships I think it would be pretty cool if people played like this.
Captains get this ability for free anyway, in the latest patch captain mark even shows where the ship is off screen with a floating arrow indicator! (OP OP)
All it would do is let you point out the location of the ship to your own crew (teamwork required) for them to spot it which shows its location to the rest of the team (teamwork result). Note the ship will not appear on the map if you mark an unspotted ship with rangefinder, the ship will only be rangefinder marked for a few seconds, and it will not appear to the ally ship at all.
I don't think this would "dumb it down" (what great powerful advanced effect do you think the range finder brings, even with my suggested changes?) but only make it appealing to the crews that want to use it. I know for a fact my team would ignore the rangefinder if it left a crew member without the ability to mark a ship to other players on the team, no matter what information it showed about enemy ships. (this is the biggest reason it's bad to take a rangefinder currently!) Are we too dumb to use the range finder, or smart enough to realize it's crap if it takes away a crew members ability to spot at all?
Spotting position is just too important and not having it at all on one player is very bad - one player spotting a ship can have a serious effect on the outcome of the battle, just think how many times that one player on your team spotted that metamidion right behind you and saved your ass. (I can think of a veteran player who thinks spotting is so important that he would always take spyglass as pilot before they added the captain mark ability)
Give range finder a type of captains mark. Once marked then range info is available if ship is spotted by spyglass.
Make range information available to the ship with rangefunder until spot from any spyglass is lost. This requires each ship to have their own rangefinder
This would make it viable. Only problem is now there are three types of bracket systems used to denote a marked ship
All good ideas. I think these are the best that you presented.
It should be able to find the range of any solid object in the game world and show a marker of where that object is through the deck plating. That way when a pilot is flying through buildings or mine fields the crew can put a spot marker on objects the captain should know about.I approve of this.
Perhaps give it more utility, such as marking waypoints on a map.
Spud is right.
Perhaps give it more utility, such as marking waypoints on a map.
Does it need to do anything else beside find the range of the ships? I know that this thread is about making it useful. I also know that many vets won't find the rangefinder useful because they are so use to looking at the map and the sights on their guns.
That's a scary thought...
I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)
I like this refined list. It makes sense.
My only issue is the component highlighting. Your description of it is vague. Seems like you considered the issue of cloud concealment and draw distance.
Yesterday i was on an artemis and saw chem sprayed weapons through clouds on a ship i could not spot. Seems like the highlight effect already exists.
That's a scary thought...
I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gunsoficarusonline/images/4/4b/Rangefinder.png/revision/latest?cb=20151217190419)
Okay so it's been two years now and this tool is still more useless than the harpoon - I believe it's time we all try really hard and think of another passive tool related to ship spotting for muse to implement as the rangefinder.
My Suggestion:
- The rangefinder effect only works if the ship is first spotted by another player with a spyglass,[1] and the range finder effect remains active until that ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover.
- The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)
- Once a ship is successfully marked by a rangefinder after already being spotted by a spyglass it displays the range of the ship in km from each ship on the spotting team as it does currently. This effect will remain active until the ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover and does not require constant spotting from the person using the rangefinder.
That's a scary thought...
I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
The only use for rangefinder I saw was in the old blenderfish duels where each uses the first clip to aim for the front gun. The rangefinder would let you know exactly when to shoot. By that logic it would have use on a metamidion to tell exactly when you're in greased range. In both cases it would be carried by the second engi not the gunner. You only need two spyglasses per ship and a rangefinder would let you engage as tight as possible and give you a small edge in duels where every fraction counts
1. too easy
2. it will cause lag.
3. difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns. An obvious as hell aiming arc silhouette is just insulting.
4. a simple fix on the aiming notches to make it clearer wtf the notches mean will serve as a far better way to help (without breaking the game).
range finder tells the range in numbers. then you look for that number on the aiming notch on the gun. voila same solution. less obnoxious and far more simple to implement.
"difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns" is simply not true. When planning a strategy of attack on an enemy ship it's always safer to assume they can hit every shot, and when thinking tactically "oh their gun is difficult so I'm fine" is a mistake likely to end in death against experienced crews or even talented low levels. Plus saying "oh no don't use that gun your crew's not good enough" is a great way to make people not want to play the game, and corrals people that already play the game away from those guns. Not only that, but dedicating a pilot slot and taking time to watch people with the binoculars would create it's own balance dynamic. For instance pilots may ask themselves "if I stay back and the ally protects me can I sacrifice the slot to help accuracy?"
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
I don't necessarily agree with everything said in the video, and don't agree that lumberjack is always stronger than hwacha, but getting into that would take us away from the point of this discussion. For the sake of argument, would a tool that helps people move away from their hwacha "foo strategy" be such a bad thing?
no... the whole point of the range finder is to find the range....
Its a tool to give a player extra data to improve their shooting. Not act as a goddamn blatant cheat tool.
Your whole spiel about assuming people should hit every shot is asinine. You don't plan for the ideal situation because the enemy is actively trying to not set up the ideal situation for you.
Hence you have to think about the ease of use of guns. Hence you use a gatling over a hades vs a squid. Its easier to hit with many factors adding to it.
Hades can cause fire, has higher dps per clip (and can break faster if it the hits were greater). But all that is useless if can't hit because its an arcing weapon that needs more than just pointing the reticle at the ship.
You ever wonder why the hades has obviously better hull break ability than a gatling? Because you clearly haven't considered it. And how you're asserting your point when you clearly haven't shown said consideration, makes it galling for me to read your spiel to justify your cheat tool.
I mean yeah you can use a hades to hit a squid but it won't be as reliable to hit than a gatling. But if you could. The hades would indeed break that hull faster than a gat, but thats a big gamble. Its a BIG IF.
And if there's one thing I teach and is definitely demonstrated by the countering picking fights with vets. You don't plan around ifs. Scrubs plan around ifs and they fly dumb crap like double flak.
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis. I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?
Djinn's suggestion of bonus damage, I think it's a bad idea (no offense djinn) because it forces people to stare at an enemy, not fun gameplay in the least.
Most likely standing on the spear.
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis. I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?
Isn't that what sniping builds at the moment currently are? Staring at someone while your gunners snipe? I mean, sure, there's all sorts of tactical games involved for positioning and whatnot, but it's not like you can't do that with a range-finder. Might even be fun to watch your crew's shots fly in and hit the target from a thousand meters and up. Maybe it would even encourage some more communication. Like "I'm gonna be zoomed in so let me know if we're being flanked."
I also never intended for this to be used on everything, just as a practice tool for certain guns that typically get no love because most gunners aren't MLG enough for most pilots to consider letting them try.
My goals wasn't to put a player in stand-by mode. If you're taking damage or have three guns on target it's always superior to heal or fire as necessary. The damage boost suggestion was aimed at times when your Pyramjdion is approaching the enemy's blind side, and only two guns can fire, or when your Flak/Lumber Galleon side is shooting. What's the last guy doing? Most likely checking buffs that are already up, or sitting idle.
Shouldn't they be repairing engines? if we are not currently taking damage i am always burning kerosene.
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..
Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.
Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Telling range is one thing I find useful, the problem is the lack of spot...and as a gunner...I'm not looking through it because I'm using my visual cues of say the drop sight on a lumberjack, of course the problem with some guns and really long distances is you can't see if your shot is over or under very well.
So, personally, I think a range finder would be more usable if you could use it while mounted, but you then lose your gun sights (but your gun's arc doesn't move while you're looking through it.)
That might make it too strong though....
Otherwise, to keep the communication deal
Range and speed of ship. That way the person range spotting can relay to the gunner, if they are skilled.
The huge downside is each square is 1km, so right now, spotting a ship and finding its range is a matter of pressing "m"
Without giving away the function of the rangefinder itself, what do you want it to actually do?
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).
Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.
Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).
Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.
Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m
So essentially you want people to see rangefinder and take it so they can kill quicker? Not shooting down or arguing your idea, just asking for the purpose of my earlier question.
I'll admit, I'd rather have just the range, speed is just a matter of centimeters, but range is arc.
How is that going to work in practice? I find the idea of using rangefinder while mounted intriguing, but as for the rest, you think someone's going to go "oh they're at 768 meters and moving at 22 meters per second so I should move the gun half a centimeter to the left and one centimeter up?"
I should add again, though, that making the range-finder usable while on the gun itself is an interesting thought, that maybe we should apply to some of the other theories here to see how that changes things. Maybe even make it a gunner tool instead of a pilot one?
I still challenge people to try out the question I posed just above and see where that takes us.
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..
Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-
instant no.
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-
instant no.
I've tried so hard to keep everyone's thoughts in mind and keep this as reasonable and diplomatic a debate as I possibly can despite everything. Now I know you have a reputation to keep up, but you could try to not be an asshat for the maybe one minute it would take you to read the whole thing. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe you won't. Who fuckin knows.
I wasn't surprised. Its you elaborating on an idea from the core concept (the above quoted text). And frankly I wasted my time reading the elaboration since it still uses said quoted text as the basis.
Or we could, you know, just shoot down each other's ideas without giving them a chance. That's how things get done.
Shoot down each other's ideas.
My only objection is it would honestly make the guns OP. Lumberjack and hades are already very powerful if the shooter gets the beat on a ship in that first or second shot. Being able to spam their first volley would honestly break balance imo. It sucks as it is going against the top tier gunners and even they usually miss their first shot.
Too kooky imo. Not really fitting with the idea of a rangefinder.
i'm actually not opposed to overlordegg's compromise ideas that only others can see the arc outlines. but i'm not all for it either, imo the arcs should not be complete, they should only give say the first 500 meters. and maybe extend that to 750 meters if there are two rangefinders being used..
...but I would make it be the highlighted arcs of all the guns as demonstrated in practice. This would be something I would actually use to train people. Everything else, not really.
I really like the idea of rangefinder showing arcs. As for the distance of projected arcs, maybe the more you zoom in the farther out the projections go?
This way you can either zoom way in and have very accurate predictions but poor awareness or stay zoomed out to watch the big picture but be somewhat less accurate with the projection.
This is a nice touch.
I would also add that the HUD should disappear while using rangefinder. Further limiting situational awareness since this seems to be the balancing feature.
I really like the idea of rangefinder showing arcs. As for the distance of projected arcs, maybe the more you zoom in the farther out the projections go?
This way you can either zoom way in and have very accurate predictions but poor awareness or stay zoomed out to watch the big picture but be somewhat less accurate with the projection.
This is a nice touch.
I would also add that the HUD should disappear while using rangefinder. Further limiting situational awareness since this seems to be the balancing feature.
Well it seems we're all in agreement -- how can we make this happen?
I disagree max. In a blenderfish duel every millisecond counts. In the end it comes down to twitch reaction and ping.. but having a rangefinder can't hurt.
Thematically the range finder was never used to assess damage on a ship.
It was the spy glass that was used for that. Plus the vagueness of a ship's condition is kind of an important factor in combat. If we see every kind of information in the game, its all just boring number crunching as opposed to a far more interesting game of probability.
Thematically the range finder was never used to assess damage on a ship.
It was the spy glass that was used for that. Plus the vagueness of a ship's condition is kind of an important factor in combat. If we see every kind of information in the game, its all just boring number crunching as opposed to a far more interesting game of probability.
Thematically the spyglass was never used for combination forward looking infra red, infra red search track, multiple target tracking and identification with radar applications.
But that's what it does at the moment.