Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on April 28, 2014, 10:31:03 am
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Fun? Not fun? Still useless?
Your commentary here.
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Insanely fun. :D Hard to use as well due to the slow projectile velocity even with Lesmok; this is good! Makes harpooning from 800m (I haven't gotten a hit yet but I'm working on it) rewarding for skilled gunners.
I've had some silly fun doing a ramming Pyramidion with double front harpoons and moonshine :D Is there a speed limit in this game?
However I have a feeling that just as the harpoon is excellent against low-mass ships (even the 1.3.5 harpoon was enough to drag Mobulas into walls), no sane captain would mount one on them either. GeoRmr tells me that the Squid is an exception due to having enough engine power to deal with this issue.
I am excited to see if I can make the harpoon work as more of a tactical engagement control tool, able to prevent an enemy from escaping, close distance in 5 seconds, and readjust positions of ships.
As for dragging enemy ships into terrain, the 5 second window to move your ship in a position to do so is tough to use-I need more experience with it on Paritan and Canyon to see if I can make it work. Then again, this is good, otherwise consistent drag kills would prove super frustrating for the enemy team.
So far so good, but I see how it could be frustrating for newer players to counter when it's on the side of a galleon (for example). No escape, Hwachas and carronades.
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The harpoon is a lot of fun now! I was running a Flamer Junker this afternoon against a dual Harpoon Pyra on Paritan. It really gave me a challenge, thinking about my positioning. When the harpoons go out, I would stick on Phoenix Claw to turn my back to them, then Kerosene away from their nose. It was a great little to-and-fro. A little tar made it even sweeter :D
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I want to see if the old squid chute slam dunk is possible again.
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...I guess that my Harpoon Munker is viable... Time for some 'Fatal Attraction'...
And some Mine-iacal laughter...
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happy to see the changes. It's nice knowing a harpoon wont be flinging 2 ships in what seemed like two random directions for 2 minutes anymore. would like to see damage changes to be viable on ships with a small number of guns with same arc, but i don't know how that would go and one fix at a time is nice. haven't worked with it too much with it will post again if anything else comes up
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Playing a match as a harpoon gunner, not fun at all. I think we have all pilots talking up there. It is irritating, slow, and un-fulfilling.
Fire.
Miss.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait....
Fire.
Hit.
Pull.
Bump.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait...
Frustration.
At least the flare gun has two shots, and landing even one of them feels like an accomplishment. Landing a harpoon feels like "I hope this does what we want.... now comes the wait."
Missing the reload is even worse. Without lesmok, you might was well just reload again, as your chances of hitting anything not right in front of you are minimal.
Making the pull stronger made the gun more fun. Adding the long reload removed every ounce of that fun.
I stick by my original suggestion. Reduce the pull by 50%, reduce piercing, make the reload one second longer than the rope duration. That would give the harpoon long, slower reels requiring a gunner's constant attention instead of a short maybe-if-you-don't-miss jerk and intolerable wait.
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Alternatively, don't miss.
Either way, harpoons probably shouldn't be the focus of a ship as it is.
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I can see the fun of the harpoon right now (it has become a totally different weapon from before), but isn't the recharge time too much? I mean, it's pretty much a tactical weapon that does no damage, it just swap and randomize ships placement. Let's say you use it for rams, it's a little too impredictable and it puts you at the mercy of the other(s) ship(s), even if you succeed (that is rare if the enemy has experienced engeneers).
No ship would use it as a main gun so, why the long recharge time? It can become a pretty useful weapon on rarely-used gun slots if it can shoot faster.
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When I used the harpoon in the dev app, with a short reload duration, it was very easy to spam. For example, repeatedly bouncing a squid of a galleons hull until the squid explodes.
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Finally we got a legit ramming build for the pyra with a harpoon and gatling in the front. Hitting the harpoon with lesmok isn't such a difficult task.
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I was thinking the same thing, Rainer.. but I think it need a slightly faster reload for it to be worth taking.
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It worked out quite well today. You will have to time your harpoon shot though.
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I would like to see the reload time reduced a bit.
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agreed with reload buff... although I also wouldn't mind it doing a tad more piercing damage
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Yes, the reload should be much faster.
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I agree with the reload, need to be slightly faster.. and then maybe I'll run with a harpoon+gat pyra for ramming
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The reason why I have the reload so high is to reduce harpoon abuse. The force it applies is extremely high to the point that it completely denies movement. To be constantly hit with that from 1 or more harpoons would be extremely unfun.
Of course, this is not to say that it won't change. There are some ideas floating in dev app right now that I will try to look into in the future.
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The reason why I have the reload so high is to reduce harpoon abuse. The force it applies is extremely high to the point that it completely denies movement. To be constantly hit with that from 1 or more harpoons would be extremely unfun.
Of course, this is not to say that it won't change. There are some ideas floating in dev app right now that I will try to look into in the future.
I can't imagine harpoon abuse would be anywhere near as devastating as what is currently possible (easily) with mines.
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Difference being Geo, the harpoon is supposed to be a utility like the flare gun. The mine launcher is a weapon.
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Hmm, mines. There's an idea for a side of a pyra. Harpoon and mines.
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Hmm, mines. There's an idea for a side of a pyra. Harpoon and mines.
Clearly you mean the front of a pyra.
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Hmm, mines. There's an idea for a side of a pyra. Harpoon and mines.
Won't work, trust me on this one.
And I too thing that the reload time is just too devastating. Especially when you want to harpoon from a longer range, the chance to miss is high enough already, especially on Junker's hull and against Squids manouverbility.
Also, from a logical point of view: Why would you want to harpoon somebody to close the distance between the two of you, if your target already IS close to you?
Ramming pyra aside (which is literally every pyra in the game, harpoon or not), a shorter reload time would allow this gun to be used against medium/long range ships without the already high risk of falling prey to the endless sniping and ultimately dying on the spot, since you have to expose yourself and yada yada. If you could hit with the harpoon, it could render the longer range ship either useless or helpless against your own close range barrage. And it wouldn't even be too powerful either, since you still have to hit and gun disable through artemis or merc isn't rare either.
Currently the harpoon is not even a utility weapon. It's even less worth than that. It's a gun that has only 2 scenarios:
- Miss with the harpoon and fail, which might end in ship destruction
- Hit with the harpoon and ram, which might end in ship destruction
I tryed using this gun on a Spire, I really did try to reel the enemy in. What happened was that the weird pyhsics kicked in instantly, turned me the wrong way, thus losing some gun arc and moving towards the enemy instead of the enemy moving towards me.
What am I supposed to do with this? I can't hit from long range and in close range it's less usefull than a beacon flare, because I know that 10 stacks of fire don't throw my ship around.
Next thing is, I don't get the fear of "harpoon abuse". What about the carronade? It can shred a balloon and keep an entire ship disabled without too much trouble if the carronade pilot has the ship and the skill for it. Neither drouge chute or impact bumpers will save you from that either. How is harpoon worse? You push the enemy around and have him be 1m away from your face, congratz. And Mines are utility weapons too, you know? Like the beacon flare, it can be used offensively, only with more effect, if executed succesfully.
TD;DR
- The Harpoon is the best weapon for suicide bombers
- The Harpoon was never fixed and, personally, less fun than before
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Yesterday i was using the harpoon on the side of the galleon, There was a metamidion trying to kill us, as he was slightly angled i harpooned his engines, and it turned him away from us, taking his guns off arc and allowing us to finish him off.
Point being it is far more useful than before and still a work in progress.
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You can not compare the harpoon to the flare as a 'utility' gun. It simply is not the same. As I have stated before, the flare is a fire and forget weapon. It does not really matter if it hits, and you never build a valid strategy around it.
The harpoon is the opposite, as it effects YOUR ship as much as the enemy. It has a specific use, and failure to use it correctly will end in defeat. It needs careful planning and timing with a super strong pull, and needs a dedicated strategy built around its use. The only other gun with a long reload that you need to plan around (the flare is not one), is the hwacha. The difference is that the hwacha is worth the wait, and firing it does not have the possibility of messing up your own ship.
Building a strategy around a long reload, super strong harpoon is simply not worth it for the off chance that you might turn a ship around or whatever. It is a high risk, minimal reward gun as it is. Previously, it was a low risk, minimal reward gun.
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Of course the harpoon works on a Galleon, well "works". I had used it before the patch as well on the back of the Galleon, saved me a few times from a carronade, can't say that about now though. And I have yet to find another ship that can use a harpoon without eliminating or it least disabling itself in the process.
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Reload time on harpoon has been decreased on dev app.
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I loaded up double harpoon once on a pyra. my gunners somehow got both shots in at the same time so the acceleration from the harpoon reeling back in and the moonshine was so fast that it makes squids blush. killed the enemy pyra from full health in one hit as mine keeps on flying at high speeds. I couldn't fly for the rest of the match because I was laughing too hard. Would I recommend this? Only if your very crazy.
Only complaint with the harpoon so far is it requires alot of effort for ramming purposes
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There's also a muzzle speed increase on dev app as well, which makes it much much easier to fire.
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The Reload is very much prone to being abused. Prolong the reload by 25%+ or 35. Or something.
The muzzle speed fix is great!
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I would rather see a 50% reduction in force. I want to see this gun "reel in enemies", not go 'Bass Pro Hulk Smash Fishing'.
Easier to fire (due to new velocity), shorter reload (as it has), short duration (as it has to avoid physics strangeness), and weaker force would accomplish this. Constantly hitting another ship with weaker harpoons would pull your ships together at a reasonable, non-moonshine-breakneck-whiplash-inducing speed. It would also allow for piloting tools to actually compensate for connecting a harpoon.
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Turning down the force is making the harpoon mundane. And in a way, turning it back into previous harpoon.
Having a strong effect makes for an actual use. And some creative abuse if you commit. I dont want to commit to simply actualy using harpoon. Not worth it at all..
The harpoon does not have much else, so strong force is all it has. And that force is what you want use for the moment.
It is a utility gun, every other actual gun is better than the harpoon, but the effects of the harpoon is what youl want to use, and thus is why its strong with short duration, and a long reload from it being abused.
The muzzl speed increase is great because it makes the use of the utility more guranteed.
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And completely un-fun to use. Reducing the force by half would in no way make it anything like the original harpoon. It is supposed to reel in, not be a high-powered, single use rope trap. It is not useful at all on most ships due to the fact that pulling something that hard will likely destroy you. It overpowers ALL engines. It is inescapable once set. That is just ridiculous.
This should NOT be a ram aid on steroids, or the reverse of a mine impact. It should be an escape deterrent, like it is meant to be. I don't understand all this "Make it stronger. Make it stronger. Longer reload." garbage talk that went on during testing, taking it further and further from how it is supposed to work, and into stupidly overpowered force and ridiculously long and un-fun to actually shoot reload times.
Do you even gun? I do, and I know it sucks to shoot. Stop thinking from the captain's seat and spend a good amount of time trying to gun with this thing.
With the same duration and reload it has now in devapp, but a lower force, gunners will feel like they are doing something at the same time as actually having an effect, even if it is not an instant moonshine change in acceleration. More like mild, continuous kerosine. Aimed right, it will still throw off a pilot's course, but not to the extant of instantly spinning them 90 degrees.
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You dont gun the harpoon, you simply fire it. It is a utility gun, and as a captains part of seat, you need to be prepared.
If a captain has a harpoon on his ship, he will have to brace the ship for it.
If you are going to fire the harpoon with half force and fast reload, BOTH ships will be dragged and reeled in. So continuesly being reeled in and the one to fire it is going to be annoying and will result in previous harpoon effects, just that it is manual rather than automatic. What we have now is one quick use of the harpoon. It has huge arcs, quick rotation speed, and with muzzle upgrade it is a weapon you can easily just jump on and fire. It isnt slow, and clunky to aim with so you have to BE on it constantly.
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It is not a utility gun. It is a strategy gun. Careful planning must be put into its use. It creates a specific effect, and requires specific pilot tools and flying to use. It is used to reposition and possibly damage an enemy as an assault weapon. That negates it as a 'utility' gun and puts it into disable and strategy territory.
Its current usage in the game shows its 'utility' and perceived usefulness. New players use it. Experienced do not. That makes long reloads, strong force a failed experiment.
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Because it was difficult to hit with.
Halfing the force and the reload will simply make the harpoons effect less desirable by the user. And forcing a constant use, that will most likely end up in uncontrolled spirals like the previous harpoon. The reason why i call it utility because its a weapon you want to use for a specific situation, in a specific time.
Experienced players dont use it because its a tad bit un tweaked. The current harpoon came out of the blue, and in a suprise. And most people where happy, problem is that the reload was too long. But the strength of it is still desirable. That is why we are here. Trying to make the harpoon we have now work a bit more better.
Making the reload short enough to fire another harpoon just as the other one breaks is very much prone to abuse, and in effect will mimic the previous harpons effect. Just that it is being made manualy, instead of automaticly where one has to manualy disable the rope. On the current harpoon, its effects are very helpfull. The problem lies in the gurantee of being able to land it. Again, Its quick to use and in its wide arc, make that shot easier to land because it only has 1 shot. With a quicker reload, and any given force that is enough, it will hit ships way too easy, again and again, and thus be abused. And that is the sole reason for the reload being long. We dont want constant juggling for control anymore. Oh and, its utility in a sense that it disrupts the enemy. There is no large amount of direct damage, it just messes up the flow of the enemy ship who isnt prepared. Which is a utility use. All other guns, except for the flare is very specific on dealing direct form of offence on the enemy. A carronade doesnt kill, but it directly affects numbers and health which engineers must respond to. While the harpoon and flare, you cannot exactly respond directly to. You simply have to deal with its effect.
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If you think about it, how much abuse will you get from the harpoon if its reload time is shorter? You still have to give up 1 gun slot for it. This 1 gun slot could help you kill/disable faster.
Example Pyramidion with harpoon on the front:
If it has a harpoon on the front it will most likely get a flamer or a gatling to pair it up with (if not a second harpoon). If the enemy is a gat/mortar pyra it can easily kill that harpoon ship.
If you led it get behind you, it's no different from letting any other enemy behind you -> you are dead. The harpoon would make sure that the enemy cannot escape with special pilot tool tricks.
Example Pyramidion (or any ship for that matter) with harpoon on the side:
The same as above. You lose killing potentional, but at least the enemy can't run away or around you too easily.
Example Galleon with harpoon on the side:
If you get on the side of a galleon you are doing something wrong. The harpoon makes sure you will learn your lesson.
Whatever the reload time is, the very idea of putting this gun on your ship is questionable, because you simply lose quite a bit of killing and/or disable potentional.
But at least the enemy can't get away, right? Wrong.
With the current harpoon physics you are the one that moves in on the enemy and not even reliably. In most cases you will lose almost all of your gun arcs, having you standing right next to the enemy without any chance of attacking. In the worst case scenario, the enemy still has arcs on you while you just lose yours, giving him the advantage he needs to kill/disable you without you being able to defend yourself.
If I am not incorrect than the harpoon barely reels in the enemy, but speeds you up towards them and this sucks.
I can understand that a squid should not be able to reel in a galleon, but if a spire harpoons a squid, backwards moonshines and still moves towards the squid, than I believe something is wrong.
I don't need quicker reload times, if the weapon itself does what I need it to do. If the harpoon physics are not getting changed, then I want a new tool that is suggested here: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3960.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3960.0.html)
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I believe the squid gets pulled even harder. And that the pull turns the ship acording to where it hit him.
For example, harpooning a pyra on his side, but more torwards his engines will turn him away from you, more on his front will turn him against you.
Harpooning with a spire isnt really ideal either. While the squid can harpoon few ships.
Its true that the harpoon effect is detriment on the dealing side also. It should be possible to split the harpoon force away from the dealer. Or atleast, thats what i like to believe. But ive noticed its a gun that you may or may not want to choose dependant on your ship, versus some other ship.
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Why wouldn't you want a harpoon on a spire? If the spire is close range, that is.
The spire is slow and thus unable to chase, but it can turn rather quickly.
It has 4 guns pointing in the same direction (somewhat at least). Three of those can shoot simultaneously while the pilot can still move the ship around. The harpoon is the situational 4th gun.
The harpoon on the spire would make sure that nothing can escape it and its 2 to 3 other guns.
Of course it's different when a pyra charged at it head first...
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All 4 guns are usually reserved for killing as quick as possible. Like i cant even place a flair in there even tho i wish i had one at times.
Harpooning with the spire would then have to be placed on the middle. So that the momentum isnt greatly shifted when landing a harpoon. Which ive done a couple times. It just never came to the situation to, turn their arcs away, or trap them from escaping because im such a grand target (becuzspire) that they always target me. You WANT them to run away. That extra 4th gun used by either the engineer or pilot (Depending on the build) always ends up deciding what the Spire is overpowering the other ship at.
So to me, its detrimental because it takes away a 4th gun that combos with the rest of the guns. But i always use it on my goldie, like... always.
But your question does make me think about it more. I would use it versus a junker. But junkers arent exactly easiest to hit. Squids i believe are the best ships to choose harpoon versus. Pyramideons, no thanks. Mobulas, 50/50. Galleons, no thanks. Spires, Rather have the 4th gun. Goldfish, rather have the 4th gun.
Ive mostly used it versus squids and goldies (With the spire). But never really considered it again on my spire :/
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Well, it comes down to this. Crafeksterty wants the harpoon to match his play style. I want the harpoon to do what it is supposed to do, and let people adjust tactics to that.
I actually have used the harpoon on a Spire. It worked very well... for each shot. During the long reloads, it was rubbish and caused the strategy to fail. An enemy that would have been dead was able to simply fly away during a reload, and kill our teammate. Why? Because the harpoon does NOT functionally reel ships in. It gives a short burst of repositioning or turning. It is being used as a disable gun. It is not meant to be a disable gun. It is meant to be a range control gun. It fails miserably at this.
If you want a gun to do what you are suggesting, suggest a new gun.
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Wow! Richard! What got up in your grill?
Im not suggesting this for my playstyle, im supporting what muse did with the harpoon. Because i believe it was a good choice for the harpoon. And to further develope it for players to simply use it is the muzzle speed.
The harpoon half force and half reload wont do what you want it to do. Its going to go all ape the more harpoons you place. The previous harpoon had a very long duration but the force was aprox... weaker than half of this. And even that was ape.
And to clarify, ive seen players use this harpoon to its success. Albeit some are ineffective. (Addition: Front Harpoon junker is a great chaser) A double harpoon junker with coordination can make for some devestating results in terms of breaking the positions. Double harpoon Pyramidion front is a bit innefective but can make for instant kills. Galleon harpoon is super effective. Mobula and spires dont really benefitt much from harpoon and really rather not be harpooned. The squid can only pull some ships, like the moby, spire (maybe), another squid, goldfish. And for the goldfish, i dont play it too much but i finaly use the harpoon on it.
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The current change is the result of faulty feedback from players, same as the flamethrower. Only one was hotfixed.
The harpoon did 'ape' things before precisely because it held on too long for what the mechanics were trying to do. Breaking that connection resets the mechanics. Firing more rapid harpoons will result in nothing like the original harpoon mechanics, which were almost 20 times weaker than they are now. It will just result in a less extreme pull for the same amount of time (5 seconds). Then the mechanics disengage, and reset with the next hit. How can that be MORE 'ape' than the insane stuff it does now? I don't follow your logic at all.
Imagine taking it all the way back to 10,000n, but with the 5 second duration/8 second reload the DevApp has now. It would barely do anything. It would not be 'ape'. So, tell me HOW making the force weaker than it is now, but stronger than it was, with the same exact duration would make it 'ape'. Tell me how setting weaker multiple harpoons is more 'ape' than setting multiple stronger harpoons. You make zero sense on this.
Weaker force, same 5 second duration, 8 second reload from DevApp= same effect, though much weaker, almost twice as fast. Does NOT = 'ape'.
Pilots will be able to counter the effects with tools, but only have a 3 second window of maneuvering instead of NOT being able to counter at all, and having almost 10 seconds to recover. The first option makes sense in the game. The second is ape.
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Guys, let's try to reel it back a notch (see what I did there?). I understand you are all very passionate. However, let's not speculate. If you'd like to test something in particular, please let me know.
From what I've read, it's clear that I should increase reload speed a tad after muzzle speed increase.
Any other requests for tests?
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I have been asking for a test of 100,000n with 5s duration, 8 second reload (actually 6 s previously, but I like like the 5/8 in devapp) since we started testing it. I was drown out by the "MOAR POWERS CAN'T FEEL IT!" crowd.
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I would like the ship that shoots the harpoon to be more stable compared to the ship that gets hit by the harpoon, if that is possible or a tool that lets me achieve something like that, like for example a tool suggested here https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3960.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3960.0.html), if that is possible. Moonshine can only do so much...
Of course there should be some limits, less the squid reels in a galleon without any trouble (although that would be funny and create an interesting gameplay to some extent).
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I would like to see this effect with the addition of 'anchor' pilot tool. Anchor could also be used to prevent ships ramming off your gun arcs and possibly in combination with impact bumpers.
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Imagine taking it all the way back to 10,000n, but with the 5 second duration/8 second reload the DevApp has now. It would barely do anything. It would not be 'ape'. So, tell me HOW making the force weaker than it is now, but stronger than it was, with the same exact duration would make it 'ape'. Tell me how setting weaker multiple harpoons is more 'ape' than setting multiple stronger harpoons. You make zero sense on this.
It wont ape at first, but at first wont do anything much. Constant pulling and constant use may result in Spiral behaviour.
Having weaker harpoons is going to make it Mundane and less desirable to use because it effect does not do/Last enough.
The first intro to this current harpoon on the dev app was actually weaker. And, it didnt do enough Even with multiple harpoons, it did little, but the idea was there.
The reason this wont help much as a balance is because BOTH ships are getting the effect. A pilot with harpoons of your suggestion will be out of control eventualy.
A harpoon with strong effects but a short duration is much easier to manage and take control of. Simply upping the muzzle speed, and you gurantee a harpoon to hit, thus expecting the effect to happen much more often. But not as often as constant because of the reload.
Setting multiple Strong harpoons is pretty rediculous, but sacrifices alot of the actual offence power.
Multiple weaker harpoons... simply wont do much. and thus not really worth taking. But lets say its consentrated. Where the pilot uses moonshine and stuff to stabelize himself. You managed to spiral the other ship, but you no longer have engines because it took its time and maybe spiraled a bit yourself. OFcourse i dont know this, but the behaviour sounds similar to the previous harpoon than how this harpoon works now.
I would like the ship that shoots the harpoon to be more stable compared to the ship that gets hit by the harpoon
Yeah! Right now we can only battle the weight with moonshine/Kyrosine. But moonshine does not cover all directions. Is there a way to simply take a bit force pull away from the dealing side?
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Simply put, I think you are wrong. Since we have not tested it, which I am asking for, you just have speculation in the wind. That is not worth anything.
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Incase you want to have a glimpse of how multiple harpoons perform, I have a little of experience of how it performed before the patch. I used to do double harpoon on mobula bottom deck.
Compared to when I had only 1 harpoon as the top middle gun, the two harpoons (assumed hit approximately at the same time) made my ship much more controlable. In contrast, I did not understand what was happening on the harpooned ship.
Of course I did not have full control over my ship, but since I was moving myself, I could at least move to where I wanted to move to (even without moonshine, but some kerosene to help out) and the harpooned ship was forced to move with me (even up and down). It was nice.
This does not work with the current harpoon, of course, since you cannot even control your ship with backwards moonshine and if you pay a little attention on just the right ship, you will notice that the harpoon makes you spin even if you have moonshine activated.
The force that the current harpoon has (270 000N, if I am not mistaken) is enough to have the harpoon do what you want it to do (the duration is arguable, I personally believe it's a bit too short, especially if I want to make use of it in a bit longer range, but because of high reload I have to wait forever to shoot again incase of miss -> high risk, high reward?), but its physics won't allow you to keep control of your own ship. This makes 2 harpoons redundant and the use of just 1 harpoon questionable.
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I have seen the new harpoon do some amazing things and am happy with it. Today that aft harpoon on your galleon Daniel, catching my lumberfish and pulling me inside of arming range before aft ramming me into the terrain, and yesterday I successfully managed to pull a pyramidion to its swift demise into a cluster of mines.
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Nobody expect harpoon on galleon backside.
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I have also used the harpoon on the back of a galleon quite successfully shooting it myself as the pilot. Engines out, enemy parked behind us. Fired the harpoon into the side of the ship, spinning them away from us and pulling us together for a substantial ram leaving just enough time to get back to the helm and activate bumpers. The inertia of the Galleon caused several impacts, and killed the other ship...
All the while, I was thinking it was stupid that something like that should work. That a single shot from a small gun can effectively disable and kill an entire ship while yours does not even have working engines is ridiculous. What I did was gross abuse of mechanics, and should not have been possible.
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Why shouldn't it have been possible? What should the harpoon have done if not what it was supposed to? Set fire?
What happened was no abuse of mechanics, but instead the use of a gun that aligned one ship with the enemy and making use of the mass that the galleon possesses in order to ram kill, which the galleon might actually be best at. The enemy should not have been behind the galleon, since that is not the galleon's blind spot.
I find it quite nice that there IS a gun that has the power to move ships around that can no longer use their engines because they are broken (another reason why I like mines: They just push the enemy around!).
And your statement seems rather wrong, it was not the harpoon that killed the enemy ship rather it was your ship. The harpoon just gave you the opportunity to do so, which might not have been possible with any other ship (squids are not the best ramkillers and nobody complains about harpoon front pyra, but about harpoon back galleon?).
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One small gun had more power than four large, and two small engines. At that range, even if we would have both had fully functional engines and kicked in moonshine directly towards each other, that would not have happened. That means the harpoon has much more acceleration and speed than the combined engines of two large ships. In addition, it works like a magnet, removing any bounce that happens with typical rams where ships hit, drift apart, then have to accelerate towards each other again. AND it controls the enemy ship.
It should not have all those abilities at the ridiculously high power it has now. Since we are talking 'utility' guns, I see this as the equivalent of having a flare hit set everything on the other ship on fire with ten stack. Complete, instant disable.
Honestly, I could see the current harpoon mechanics on a large gun, with more damage, but not in a small gun. I actually suggested a new heavy gun (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3983.msg68918.html#msg68918) based on this very thought.
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The harpoon is pretty powerful, yes, but it's just as risky.
If you use it in close range, you will face a ship ramming you. A galleon can handle the damage and maybe a junkers armor too, but if your armor is low on health or gun in total you will have to face a bit of permanent damage and you cannot escape it yourself. If you hit the enemy wrong then they can still shoot while ramming you, not so good.
If you miss in long range, you will be faced with a rather long reload time. However punishing that is depends on the scenario (you wanna pull the enemy away from your ally or pull them back into the fight to kill them in a 2v1?).
I mean, fine, go 5 harpoon mobula so the enemy can't move, but you can't move either and you might kill yourself in the process.
The harpoon works only so good, man, don't make it worse. If we were to (e.g.) half the force the harpoon currently applies will not be a solution, it would still overpower most ships engines.
The harpoon is an utility gun in not that it disables ships, but in that it changes engagement (at least that's what I think the harpoon is supposed to do). And it fails miserably at that, with the exception of certain scenarios (galleon back seems to be reliable enough).
I have a harpoon that is good for ramming ships or forcing ships to ram me in close range (even though there are better and more secure ways to kill ships in close range), but is really bad at everything else.
I will be honest here, I want a harpoon that allows me to pull ships back into battle incase the enemy wants to escape, which is not possible because physics.
I want a harpoon that allows me to force long range ships to go into medium/close range, which is not possible since the duration last for 5 seconds and that doesn't work for most of the time, I have not tested that reliably though.
I don't want a gun that makes me play bumper karts in mid-air.
What do you think the harpoon is supposed to do? If the force of that gun were to be reduced so much that half of the ship can simply move away from it, then I don't see the point of having the harpoon in the game. Or we are going back to the old harpoon, which negates every effort that has been put into this gun to make this gun better.
And if it takes too long for the harpoon effect to kick in, it might just be too risky to use and people would think if another ship or gun combination choice wouldn't be better instead.
What do you want the harpoon to do? Fish some birds?
Btw, that new heavy gun sounds nice.
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They did say they wanted to go back to the Harpoon when they focus on it. Right now it isnt a big focus, the harpoon that we have now is good enough for the meantime instead of the old harpoon.
So we want to enhance what this harpoon can do because it is actualy usable.
But does it do what we want it to do? Not really. On some ships bringing harpoon is detrimental.
For now, the muzzle speed is what does the trick in this situation of the harpoon. People dont rely on it because it is a difficult shot. But imagine being able to rely on the harpoon hitting every time? You would make for some game changing builds, specialy if you proove it :P
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Getting really tired of people saying what it would do, when it has never been tested. 100,000n was tested, yes, but with a 16s or so reload time. It was deemed not strong enough by the few people that tested it for a few matches (the same people that were so wrong about the flamethrower). I said it was strong enough, but needed a shorter reload to see the full effect. Stronger it went, along with a shorter reload. The shorter reload was deemed too powerful, so it was made longer again, while the force just continued to go up. The reload time should never have been tested in DevApp until the force felt right. It just made it annoying to test.
What is with the aversion to testing this?
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When 100.000 was tested, it wasnt strong enough for the duration because of the reload. Not the duration, but the reload.
Turn down the reload to the same as the duration you pretty much have constant harpooning. Which you do not want.
Which in turn results to previous harpoon.
We can test this, but the test is then going on a completely different direction. The effect and use is going to change, along with the priority of it.
Right now were fine tuning this harpoon for better use. And this harpoon is good, just needs fine tuning.
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I can honestly say I have no idea what you just said, and am starting to wonder if we are even talking about the same thing.
5 second duration, which it has now in DevApp.
8 second reload, which it also has. Maybe to 9 or 10 if it seems too trolly.
Higher velocity, which it also has.
100,000n, or 1/2 what it is now. Maybe even up to 150k.
And I do not agree at all that the current harpoon is good. I know exactly what we were testing and trying to do, because I helped test it. Hell, I just looked through the original conversation, and everyone agreed with me about a lower reload for the 100k force. That feedback was ignored and the force was just cranked up and up.
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Because we dont want Constant Harpooning, or something that ressambles the previous harpoon.
The ammount of reload you just stated seems reasonable to test this out. But the reload is just scary. Its going to be constantly used, or if its constantly used i can only expect spiral behaviour.
And i dont know the problem of the current harpoon other than the muzzle speed/velocity.
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Who is "we"? I just looked back through this thread and others, and the majority of people want a shorter reload.
What do you mean by 'spiral' behavior? If you meant the old harpoon pushing ships away from each other, that will not happen. If you mean spinning a target ship, that already happens, but would happen less with a weaker force.
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But then it would also pull less. And the effect maybe not so good?
Youve convinced me enough to wanna test this, im just super skeptical. The reason being is that the harpoons duration is an effect that lasts during the reload. It is like a gattling still shooting while it is reloading. So 10 Second reload is, fair enough because that gives 5 second actual reload/Breather from the harpoon. (5 second off, 5 second on) But im not sure that the force is enough, but if it is enough im very afraid of 5 seconds not being enough of a breather to recover from constant shots, or worse yett 2 harpoons.
In the end, its not only the recieving ship we have to worry about, it is also the dealing ship. How well can a dealing ship perform with this, is it practical in use etc etc.
Currently, this harpoon is practical when it hits. The dealer can expect the out-of-control behaviour so he braces while the ship that recieves is on a suprise so they have to react or deal with it somehow.
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I don't mind the current reload time, if only the duration is pushed a bit up, but that's too subjective.
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Okay, you have it.
Force: 100,000N
Duration: 5s
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Insignificant effect.
Can't say if that's good or bad though since I don't really know what's the goal of the gun- if I knew what it's supposed to achieve I'd do more testing.
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We did show how it can work mezhu.
But yeah, this harpoon has VERY little effect. I dont use any tools against it, and the only ship that can be chased by this is the squid. The main game harpoon does things even more it just misses... alot... and that is between those 16 second reloads. 2 Harpoons hitting a ship is too far between and dooes not reward anything other than flinging yourself after another 2 hitting harpoons. Dont know if this fling is good or bad because on a pyra it can reward with a ram. But that is 2 front harpoons that is takes away too much offence. On other ships, for the most part. 2 harpoons takes too much away, and 1 harpoon doesnt affect enough.
I dont know how 150k will perform, but that is getting awefully close to main game harpoon which then results to prone of abuse.
If we change to 150 with longer reload, is balancing out the drawbacks into becoming the main game harpoon.
I still rather have the 230k or 200k (Whatever it was) with the fixed muzzle speed and maybe 3 seconds lower reload from 16.
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For the gun to fill a position/rotation mess-up role it has to have force strong enough to actually achieve it. It needs to hit reliably so the increase in muzzle speed is necessary. And it needs to not have a dramatically lower cooldown otherwise it becomes a nerve wracking thing that's just going to be abused. Cooldown of 16 is about ok imo (granted the increase in speed and duration stays)- once every 16 seconds you get the ability to f up an enemy's ship movement, be it to save an ally, prevent an escape or just piss the enemy pilot off.
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Commented in devapp thread.