Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rainer Zu Fall on September 10, 2013, 01:29:43 pm
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(http://i.imgur.com/QAnVu48.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/J6oOTkz.jpg)
"Don't do stacked teams - it ruins you and everyone's experience!"
To raise the consciousness for stacking as the problem it is, I thought "heck, why not launch a campaign?"
So if anyone of you ever had trouble with overpowered, stacked teams, you're welcome to write your story here and/or get creative as I tried to do above!
Stacking mainly occurs in lobbies crowded with experienced players, which are quite active in this forum too usually. Sadly, it doesn't stop at the borders of clan matches - people that are experienced tend to crew up with sometimes a full team to stomp new players into the ground.
I know that you like to play with your friends, everyone does. But play against them sometimes, it's just as much fun! Maybe you get to know more people by that?
If you ever catch yourself being on such a team, remember and be aware: Don't do stacking!
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Us pastries often fight against each other; it's always fun to blast your friends to hell <3
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Overwatch do try, but sometimes it hard when the spectator spots are full so you can't do a switch quickly :( - But it certainly is fun to change things up a bit. And Zenark, didn't you say you wanted to be an OVW :P
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*ahem* https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2329.0.html
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I'm not a fan of stacking, and in Wolfpack we often hop sides to balance matches, but I want to address something on the other side of the stacking-coin: team practices.
I can't count how many times we in Wolf have been accused of stacking because we're trying to fly with our allied pilots and crews. Or because we stayed in a balanced lobby after some of the other team have had to leave, and had it filled with lower level players. Then suddenly someone joins and goes "OMG STACKZ!~" Well, yeah, it is -now-, but it wasn't for the past 10 matches...
Just saying, not all stacks are necessarily intentional.
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I don't see the reference there, QKO.
EDIT: But if I only see the same people stacking or stacked teams for more than 1 match although I gave them a hint, they probably are intentional, Garou. I'm not gonna accuse everyone of stacking everywhere and that's not what this thread is for.
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I don't see the reference there, QKO.
The whole point of that thread was to segregate playerbases before they segregate themselves. Stacking is a form of segregation.
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I don't think that matches this thread's topic, QKO.
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*ahem* https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2329.0.html
*ahem* https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2329.msg39699.html#msg39699
Which, ironically, is pretty much my same thought about this thread.
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wait i dont think i understood you. you mean "no" dont stack? or "no" stacking is awesome?
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Stacking on one side of many matches on purpose to crush new/unexperienced players = bad.
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Stacking on one side of many matches on purpose to crush new/unexperienced players = bad.
i understand you and agree! it is imagine i am confused by...
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Where's the line between "stacking" and "I've found a handful of people I like and want to play with them"?
I mean, I'm no fan of getting PuG stomped because I joined a lobby with a full red team who all have the same clan tags...and I get put on blue, but I think a big part of the game is making new friends by flying a lot with them. If I've found a crew that works well together and has fun, I don't really want to break it up after two matches.
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Where's the line between "stacking" and "I've found a handful of people I like and want to play with them"?
I mean, I'm no fan of getting PuG stomped because I joined a lobby with a full red team who all have the same clan tags...and I get put on blue, but I think a big part of the game is making new friends by flying a lot with them. If I've found a crew that works well together and has fun, I don't really want to break it up after two matches.
The difference between stacking and playing with friends is that the experience and chances of winning are equally divided. Since many people do think like that, I wanted to give them something to think about and get them aware of what this does to the other side of the match.
You can put one crew that works on one side an the other one on the other side. That way you can still make new friends by working as a team (2/3 ships = team). You don't have to play against 2/3 ships of only level 1-3 players.
Or you create a lobby for experienced players instead of 4 lobbies with one team being experienced and the other team being unexperienced.
You could get 4 equal lobbies (I'm talking about winning chances).
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Putting together one side for the sole reason of stomping pubs is bad. The amount of times that's the reasoning behind supposed "stacking" is somewhere around zero. People on same teams or people who are friends (or both) enjoy themselves more when playing together, that's the bottom line. Telling people to go campaign against playing together and that instead they should be playing against each other is what I say No to.
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ah that makes more sense
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Rainer, I understand- and I do think that PuGs suffer from a lot of one-sided matches. But, I also kinda agree with Imagine here; if I'm playing with friends, the most fun for me is when we're all on the same ship. Killing buddies is fun, but you don't get to talk to them during the match or anything. We're not trying to stack the match, we just want to hang out on a cool airship.
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Putting together one side for the sole reason of stomping pubs is bad. The amount of times that's the reasoning behind supposed "stacking" is somewhere around zero. People on same teams or people who are friends (or both) enjoy themselves more when playing together, that's the bottom line. Telling people to go campaign against playing together and that instead they should be playing against each other is what I say No to.
Sadly it's not around zero. There are players that want to win/increase their win streak/don't want to fight against difficult enemies, and that's their exact reason.
I do not say they should not play together, I'm sorry, but I think you haven't understodd the whole purpose of this. As already stated, stacking players that like to play together not only as a crew but as a team could also play against other teams that feel that way instead of many teams only playing against unexperienced players.
Or play with unexperienced players on both sides to make it fair. That way you also may make new friends.
So "Telling people to go campaign against playing together" is not only what I meant but also something I don't want to be achieved by that. If people want to, they sure can play as a crew together and their friends could play on the opposite team if there are not enough lobbies to perform the first examplary solution.
Rainer, I understand- and I do think that PuGs suffer from a lot of one-sided matches. But, I also kinda agree with Imagine here; if I'm playing with friends, the most fun for me is when we're all on the same ship. Killing buddies is fun, but you don't get to talk to them during the match or anything. We're not trying to stack the match, we just want to hang out on a cool airship.
That's why I gave you the example of You can put one crew that works on one side an the other one on the other side.
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As said, if you don't like that, there are many ways to achieve a fair match for everyone and also play with your friends - be it team or crew.
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While we're at it, let's run down a familiar PuG scenario:
You've played 5 matches with crews who don't talk, don't bring the correct loadout (after being asked), or just generally sort of do what they want ("Please stop shooting that carronade engie, the hull is down). On top of that, your allied captain isn't talking and just kind of rushes in wherever he wants. Despite your best efforts, you find yourself on the losing end every match, but you swallow your frustration and soldier on.
A few people filter out, a few more filter in, and suddenly, FINALLY, you find yourself with some crew who are willing to work with you, who listen when you make requests, and an allied captain who is eager to work with you and employ some strategy. Some of them are experienced and their levels show it. Angels sing from on high. You win your next few matches handily. Then someone starts crying "Stack!" and telling you to switch teams. What?! The game finally got good for you, why would you want to leave all these cool people to go back to that same bad experience you were having a few matches ago??
I fully understand the point of this thread, and I know that intentional stacking -does- happen, and it's bad, but in the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, not everything is so cut-and-dry.
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The game finally got good for you, why would you want to leave all these cool people to go back to that same bad experience you were having a few matches ago??
That's because you probably already entered a match or lobby that didn't have many experienced people in it. If you would, as said, enter a match with more/only experienced people (you don't have to know them by the way) this wouldn't happen. As harsh as this may sound, but if you want to play with unexperienced players as the only or one of only a few experienced players don't expect things to be perfect. Those guys are learning the game.
If you don't like that, don't enter the game and make it less annyoing for you and them.
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That's because you probably already entered a match or lobby that didn't have many experienced people in it.
Now you're being selective. You mean to say you've never been in a match that had a mix of experienced and inexperienced people in it? You've never flown that match where one player not listening throws off your entire ship? Where your main engie is more interested in shooting guns than repairing and, though your other crews might be solid, that one cog breaks the machine? Please.
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I was - but because of teaching purposes. Otherwise I enter those lobbies, take a look, "Oh, those guys are not my level, better leave them to themselves" and leave.
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I was - but because of teaching purposes. Otherwise I enter those lobbies, take a look, "Oh, those guys are not my level, better leave them to themselves" and leave.
Again, you're using selective memory there. I know personally, I've had plenty of matches where a few guys are good, a few not so good. I don't throw blame around, and I swallow my frustration, but by the same I stick around both because the competition is good, and for the sake of those crew members that are good, and try to make something work. Really, don't tell me you haven't had -those- matches in PuGs. If not, then you probably play mostly with people on your friends list. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same as a random PuG. You take what you can get in those matches, and a lot of times what you get isn't close to what you want.
And yes, I -do- try to instruct as I play when I see a new player. I feel most of us do. I very seldom see anyone lambasting new players for being new, and those people are generally called out by the other experienced players for being a jerk.
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I was there at that match which Rainer got the idea for this thread from (I understand this is a general thread, but you asked for personal stacking stories :P), and to me it seemed that stacking wasn't really intentional there in the sense that nobody wanted to get an overpowered team against inexperienced/new players. (I was on the "overpowered" side, and based on the discussions on our ship I can tell that nobody wanted a stomping team there, in fact everyone complained about balance issues midgame, which justifies your points about the game not being fun that way) It's just that it is difficult to arrange a balance when new players are continuously joining into the lobby, and by that, they mix up, quite unintentionally of course, any balance attempts that were originally started. (By new players I mean new to that lobby, not to the game).
I guess this is what happened in that particular lobby where people tried to move to the other team after a match or so, but at the same time some of the more experienced captains left the lobby, and less experienced ones joined in their places, so we ended up with the same imbalanced setup in spite of some players switching sides. (BTW, switching sides and arranging crew members for minutes in a lobby often scares players away. I have been in many lobbies where it was indeed the less experienced team that wanted to ready up asap, because they just wanted to play/have fun and didn't want to wait for the boring balancing/ammo loadouts, etc.)
Not to mention that many folks just really want to stick with their friends for a couple of matches, so they will not go to the other side. Not because someone wants to win all the time, I guess everyone would agree that challenging matches are the most rewarding and exciting to play, but because, lets say, I wanna keep chatting with my friends, and party chat can get really messy after a while if we are on other teams.
Anyway, I too have been stomped a bunch of times by stacking crews, what I usually do is switch to another match for a few minutes until things get evened out there, unless of course the stacking ships are willing to mix up a bit.
But honestly, while I agree that stacking is a problem, I rarely like leaving ships if it means that I don't get to play with my best friends around here. Some of my friends here are hardly ever online (or we just miss each other because of time zones), and when I manage to catch them online, I am so happy about seeing them that I simply do not want to go to other teams. Also, I've got friends with whom I fly a lot, but I simply enjoy playing with them so much, that whenever there is a spot on their ships, I just can't resist joining in. And all this doesn't mean that I never get to know new folks or never fly with strangers, naturally. :)
BTW, a good midway solution against team stacking could be to move one whole ship on the overpowered side to the other side of the match. That way one can still play with friends on the same ship, but the two more experienced ships won't stay on the same team.
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Putting together one side for the sole reason of stomping pubs is bad. The amount of times that's the reasoning behind supposed "stacking" is somewhere around zero. People on same teams or people who are friends (or both) enjoy themselves more when playing together, that's the bottom line. Telling people to go campaign against playing together and that instead they should be playing against each other is what I say No to.
Sadly it's not around zero. There are players that want to win/increase their win streak/don't want to fight against difficult enemies, and that's their exact reason.
I do not say they should not play together, I'm sorry, but I think you haven't understodd the whole purpose of this. As already stated, stacking players that like to play together not only as a crew but as a team could also play against other teams that feel that way instead of many teams only playing against unexperienced players.
Or play with unexperienced players on both sides to make it fair. That way you also may make new friends.
So "Telling people to go campaign against playing together" is not only what I meant but also something I don't want to be achieved by that. If people want to, they sure can play as a crew together and their friends could play on the opposite team if there are not enough lobbies to perform the first examplary solution.
Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.
And if you're just... assuming this to be the case, then I really don't have anything else to say to you.
Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.
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BTW, a good midway solution against team stacking could be to move one whole ship on the overpowered side to the other side of the match. That way one can still play with friends on the same ship, but the two more experienced ships won't stay on the same team.
That is one of the solutions I actually suggested 2 or 3 times right now.
Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.
Yes I've got screenshots. Been collecting some over the last 2 weeks. I'm not gonna publish them anywhere though since I don't want people to be dragged into this as "this is a bad guy!". You've got to understand that too.
Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.
Then I am sorry to say that you still didn't get my point. I really like to try to make it a bit more understandable to you if you want over PM but I'm not gonna write the same things over and over and over again. If it was because someone brought up a new point, sure! I like to discuss ideas or get corrected if I missed something that made my point of view false. But I am not willing to repeat everything I said that already answered the replies incoming.
EDIT: Misspelling corrected
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Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.
Yes I've got screenshots. Been collecting some over the last 2 weeks. I'm not gonna publish them anywhere though since I don't want people to be dragged into this as "this is a bad guy!". You've got to understand that too.
So blank out names or something. Sorry, I just straight don't believe it. I mean, I can see it happening maybe here and there, but on a consistent basis? I just don't see it.
Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.
Then I am sorry to say that you still didn't get my point. I really like to try to make it a bit more understandable to you if you want over PM but I'm not gonna write the same things over and over and over again. If it was because someone brought up a new point, sure! I like to discuss ideas or get corrected if I missed something that made my point of view false. But I am not willing to repeat everything I said that already answered the replies incoming.
EDIT: Misspelling corrected
I mean, at it's core it really is, because it's what you're trying to affect the most. But whatever, it's apparent that you're not getting my point so I'm going to move on from here.
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@Andika
I suggested something similar called the "Ship Shuffel" here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,225.msg2439.html#msg2439
I acknowledge stacking is a problem but some times I don't have the mental energy or patience to put up with inexperienced players. Once you have been on a very well run ship/team it is hard to watch people play at a less than optimal level.
I am fully behind stacking teams if there is a troll or ship of trolls in a match. There is no better way to show someone that their behavior is unacceptable to the community than abandoning them for the other side.
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So blank out names or something. Sorry, I just straight don't believe it. I mean, I can see it happening maybe here and there, but on a consistent basis? I just don't see it.
And how does that prove that there's always the same people stacking because of that reason?
I mean, at it's core it really is, because it's what you're trying to affect the most. But whatever, it's apparent that you're not getting my point so I'm going to move on from here.
Then explain it to me please. If it contains "play with friends", "crew split", "not the energy to play with unexperienced players" or "make new friends" it has already been answered and I've gotten your point (and answered it).
I acknowledge stacking is a problem but some times I don't have the mental energy or patience to put up with inexperienced players. Once you have been on a very well run ship/team it is hard to watch people play at a less than optimal level.
That only is understandable and human, as said. As an examplary solution I pointed out experienced players could just stick together in a lobby. If you don't want unexperienced players to join create a match with a password and ask in global who wants to join, give them the password then. If you got some in, others tend to come and aggregate in this lobby/match.
Also, I already wrote an idea (not in this thread) about a to be enabled lobby option "start-stop" or a "join-stop". Basically the levels of players (I know they don't show the experience, but you gain basic experience by playing and you gain levels to a certain point by just playing) in this lobby can be added and a factor calculated. If someone's level is far below this factor he/she may not join (join-stop). If the factors are different on each team the match can't be started (start-stop).
This would at least lead to anti-stack results without splitting the community too much and still allow players to play with their friends.
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I am fully behind stacking teams if there is a troll or ship of trolls in a match. There is no better way to show someone that their behavior is unacceptable to the community than abandoning them for the other side.
Agreed. I actually had a fun experience with that sort of stacking once. I joined a pub, and on my ship I had a relatively new gunner. He was a young guy, maybe early-mid teens, with a high voice. He was a nice kid, asking me questions and taking my advice and generally being polite.
On the blue side was a ship full of trolls. Two of them kept asking if he was a girl. Clearly having been asked before, the kid sort of sighed and, staying polite, said "Yeah, I know, I have kind of a high pitched voice, but I'm a guy not a girl". The trolls then proceeded to say lewd things to him (which I won't repeat here) for the duration of the lobby.
Before that moment, I was ready to team-hop for the sake of balance. After, I decided we were going to crush these fools. I got with my allied captain and together we focused the troll ship -hard-. They rage quit after 2 deaths. The kid on my ship was clearly having a blast and by the end had completely forgotten about their hazing.
Great times 8)
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I think we're rapidly reaching the "going around in circles" part of the discussion.
Things like unbalanced PuGs are always going to be a problem in a game that encourages teamwork and cooperation, but also mostly builds matches out of random groups of people. Some people will get lucky and build a crew/team that they work well with ... and some won't. There's no real easy solution to that issue, because at its heart its an imbalance in the players, not the game.
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And that, my dear Eukari, is why raising the consciousness/awareness of the players for that problem is something I deem worth trying.
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I forgot to mention that I really like the two posters in the op. :D
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Level 1-3 players, or crews composed of players level 1-3 in a regular match, are actively choosing their matches manually. It used to be in the bad old days before tutorials and level locking that everybody was thrown in together, and the debate about stacking that followed led directly to level locking.
The other thing is new players who come up through the level locked matches don't usually come into contact with more experienced players for obvious reasons and may not have formed an objective opinion of their gameplay skills.
I believe the two situations feed off each other.
What is then left to each player is to decide when a game is unfair, but I will point out that the first situation has been cited as just cause for stacking in previous discussions about it in these forums. For my own part if I feel that a game is unfair I will do something about it.
I acknowledge stacking is a problem but some times I don't have the mental energy or patience to put up with inexperienced players. Once you have been on a very well run ship/team it is hard to watch people play at a less than optimal level.
Part of my gametime is given over to training new players, and when I'm not doing that there are times I just want to play. There is nothing worse than having a run of really bad matches that you know you could win but the disparity of where you crew/teamie needs to be and where they actually are is just to great to deal with in 1 match. Or two. Or three.
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I think it's safe to assume that noone here stacks for the purpose of crushing noobs. They all do it, just like me, to avoid people they can't trust. If I'm presented with a choice to play boring matches with people I know I can trust or play hard matches where I'm looking on my ship more often than in front of me, then I'll go with the first option. I'm also not going to not stack for the sake of noobs, because I'm pretty sure the people on my block wish to sleep in silence. Now you got an answer relative to this thread. If I can trust the people I play with, then it's fine, but I'm not going to test my own patience.
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[...] However once I have a good working crew I am loathed to leave them even if it is in the name of balance and fairness.
And that to me is really the point. Again, you take what you can get in PuGs, and having an entire ship swap sides isn't always an option. Additionally, speaking from a pilot's perspective, it's hard to leave a team when you have an allied pilot you can get on the same page with. We've all had that experience: an allied pilot not talking, not working with you, or one of those wacky ships where the gunner is in the commander slot and the pilot is down in the crew.
Yeah, in a respect it could be considered stacking, but by the same token having a certain amount of synergy on your team just makes the game more fun, and lacking any synergy makes the game less fun. It's just how team-based games work, not all teams will be created equal unless you're getting into clan V clan matches.
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Hamster? Your post is gone. Can you write it again please? There were some ideas in there. That sure happened when I was creating my answer. If I caused that I am sorry and it really wasn't my intention.
And I agree upon reflecting and reading your point of view about it that the idea of creating a password protected game and waiting is really not focused on reality. Let's throw that one overboard.
While I have many friends in this game I doubt there are many that like me enough to me to want to join a password protected lobby and wait for it to fill up with players of equivalent skill level form our friend's list. Fully populating a lobby without random joins is very hard without scheduling and clan connections, neither of which I am very good at.
If I find my self on a stacked team I have taken to flying non standard builds. It allows me to practice new weapon combinations and gives the other guys a fighting chance. If an entire ship on the other team to ragequits I sometimes hop over to the other team and ask my crew to come with me. However once I have a good working crew I am loathed to leave them even if it is in the name of balance and fairness.
I can see that happening. Don't get me wrong, it's in the human's nature to do that. But it's also in the human's nature to hunt and scavenge for food. But we found ways to get around this. So I think if we work on this we can get this sorted out too instead of just don't caring and doing what is best for one him-/herself, be it limitations or making one him-/herself just change for balance now and then.
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And I agree upon reflecting and reading your point of view about it that the idea of creating a password protected game and waiting is really not focused on reality. Let's throw that one overboard.
Actually, that would be a part of inhousing...
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Wow that was weird, I didn't delete it, nor did I put anything inflammatory enough for Mod attention (I think).
Here is the gist of my previously deleted post:
Setting up a password protected lobby so that you can have an unstacked game is unfeasible for those of us who don't have scheduling skills or a bunch of friends who would abandon their current game to join yours.
My current method of dealing with stacked games is either trying out non standard/low kill power builds, or convincing my entire crew to swap sides with me if their is a completely empty ship. I really don't like jumping ship when I have an effective crew because getting an effective crew together is one of the best parts of the Guns of Icarus experience.
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Your original post is still in my quote, but yeah, I agree with you as said on such locked matches. Been an unrealistic idea.
I just want people to be aware of stacking and to at least think about it, so it may lead to some switch to balance the match now or then (sometimes).
We also could gather ideas, but until now I haven't seen many around here.
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Something else to consider: The captains that are being stacked against have the option to leave. And they also take responsibility for the game they are competing in by pressing the "Ready" button.
I've been on stacked teams many a time. Usually there is no opportunity to switch teams as players keep flocking in. They can see what the levels are. They know what they are getting into.
Another thing. The way I got any better in this game was playing against so called stacked teams over and over and over again.
The whole argument against stacking is really kinda ridiculous. No one is forcing anyone to play any particular match. And if you have so little concern over what is on the other side, then you really aren't trying to win anyway.
Also, it's a lot of fun to discuss boat switching and all when these same players that are being defended against the stackers just keep yelling in voice and match chat, "READY UP!!!!"
In conclusion, there is a really easy way to avoid getting stacked against -- leave.
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I just want people to be aware of stacking and to at least think about it, so it may lead to some switch to balance the match now or then (sometimes).
We also could gather ideas, but until now I haven't seen many around here.
Well, the thing is most of the matches I've been in where stacking has been a serious issue is either in those exceptions I mentioned, or the players themselves sort it out. I see people flipping teams all the time in the sake of balance where it's needed. Nobody likes a match to be too easy or too unforgiving, and the players I've been around have been pretty good about solving the issue themselves.
I don't feel any changes to the game's fundamentals will really address this issue, it's just a byproduct of team-based games. Sometimes one team just has better players than the other. I really don't know what ideas could resolve that.
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Gather around children while I share with you the wisdom of the ages:
It isn't stacking if the other team gets at least 1 point.
There, now hold back those tears and go forth and use your new found wisdom for good!
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Something else to consider: The captains that are being stacked against have the option to leave. And they also take responsibility for the game they are competing in by pressing the "Ready" button.
They actually do take that option frequently. Sometimes they wait until 1/2 way through the match to leave, much to the consternation of those who are still in the game.
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There was one time that a couple high levels were on one ship, forget what our ally was...more like mid range, against another midrange enemy ship...and a low level ship.
The enemy ships wanted us to ready up....you know..."ready, ready, ready."
Soo needless to say they did get womped on...with mines...and then they started to argue that we had stacked teams....
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Soo needless to say they did get womped on...with mines...and then they started to argue that we had stacked teams....
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
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When I saw Rainer's first image it made me think of something like this:
(http://s14.postimg.org/6oq0koy6p/antistacking.png) (http://postimage.org/)
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that is epic!
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There was one time that a couple high levels were on one ship, forget what our ally was...more like mid range, against another midrange enemy ship...and a low level ship.
The enemy ships wanted us to ready up....you know..."ready, ready, ready."
Soo needless to say they did get womped on...with mines...and then they started to argue that we had stacked teams....
Happens all too often along with low levels who have no concept there is a reverse key. They charge in recklessly then get torn to pieces and QQ about stacking when they are the morons who have no game sense. Its not stacking, its called enough common sense not to charge head on into a Galleon broadside. Let em QQ I say. I don't switch teams because someone isn't smart enough not to do something stupid. They don't like it, they can leave. Eventually the enemy ships will get people who have a lick of sense. When they finally manage to get a kill, that means they are learning and it isn't one sided anymore.
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I play with just about anybody myself. I do get frustrated when a new Captain has no concept of what their weapons do, ie.. using a lumberjack as a battering ram, and should they choose ignore my advice I just leave them to bask in their ignorance after the match is over. But I do enjoy helping out the underdog when I get a chance.
Of course on the other end of the spectrum when Phoenix and Pzycho are online I will play with them, so whoever shows up in on the enemy team is on their own.
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I play with just about anybody myself. I do get frustrated when a new Captain has no concept of what their weapons do, ie.. using a lumberjack as a battering ram, and should they choose ignore my advice I just leave them to bask in their ignorance after the match is over. But I do enjoy helping out the underdog when I get a chance.
Of course on the other end of the spectrum when Phoenix and Pzycho are online I will play with them, so whoever shows up in on the enemy team is on their own.
Twinkie, there can be a side with all level 1's, and the team would be stacked as soon as you show up.
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There are quite some barely avoidable causes for stacks:
- a good pilot can stack a lot of matches on his own
- people want to play with their friends
- public clan trains
A sophisticated match-making system might help to keep stacking within a limit.
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Please don't say people believe that stacking is something people choose to do over the fact that there are more noobs than higher levels and higher levels know each other more so they play with each other instead of with a team of half competent first timers who don't know what they are doing and will most likely ignore the best efforts of any CA because they have no clue what this game is about. Also who want's to keep training new players game after game when all they wanted to do in the first place was to have a few fun games of well-played and intense aerial combat. Instead they get stuck in a circle of crap players who keep joining don't know what they are doing then being told what to do, then leaving and joining a new game with a new captain who has a new set-up and we begin again.
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Well, I like being in a clan to play WITH my friends, not against. That said, if the fight is horribly unbalanced I guess it's ok to switch teams, I'm just a bit annoyed by it because I like having reliable teammates and crewmembers on my team.
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I find myself flying against my clan more often than I fly with them. Everybody loves shooting Spud Nick.
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I find myself flying against my clan more often than I fly with them. Everybody loves shooting Spud Nick.
You provide a nice challenge. Besides, I like shooting everybody.
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Everybody loves shooting Spud Nick.
Why would your ever-supportive, good-hearted, innocent cow-eyed clanmates ever do such a horrible and foul thing with their own kind??! Shame on you for even considering it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meFh01WGdZE
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Stacking will happen. Achievement hunters will go for the meta builds with a double stacked team. They will take -no- chance of losing, to the point of sitting in a lobby for 30 minutes, not readying up, waiting for the 'right' teams to form against them. I have seen this first hand.
There is no real way to combat this lobby-side, as, like other people have said, it very closely resembles friends just wanting to play together, and thus getting good at the game, and people finding a crew they can trust and have fun with by happenstance (I do this often).
Rather, perhaps there is something that can be done once in the match. Perhaps create an optional handicapping system. If one team is completely dominating another teams, gradually weaken their weapons and components to create a more even fight. Or, add extra AI to the floundering ships.
Personally, while flying the Jeeves, I have told my crew to go easy on the other ships if they seem new. Sometimes I even fly so as they can get a better shot at us. It just seems more fun that way. And it gives those lazy engineers something to do.
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Stacking will happen. Achievement hunters will go for the meta builds with a double stacked team. They will take -no- chance of losing, to the point of sitting in a lobby for 30 minutes, not readying up, waiting for the 'right' teams to form against them. I have seen this first hand.
What you may have seen are crews who spend a bit longer than usual because they want to make sure all of their players know what tactics to expect and ammo to bring. I have been on the other side of this coin, trying to communicate the ship's needs to my crew while some impatient person chants "Ready up! Ready up!" over top of me, making it only take longer. Frankly, I ready up when I'm actually ready. I fully understand sometimes people want a pick-up-and-play experience. If a lobby is taking too long for your taste there is absolutely -nothing- stopping you from finding another, faster lobby.
Rather, perhaps there is something that can be done once in the match. Perhaps create an optional handicapping system. If one team is completely dominating another teams, gradually weaken their weapons and components to create a more even fight. Or, add extra AI to the floundering ships.
So I should be punished when my team is doing well in a match? No thanks ^^
Again, as I've said earlier in this thread, sometimes one team is simply better than the other. It's a fact of team-based games and there isn't much you can do about it mechanics-wise that will solve that.
Most players fix the issue themselves by team switching. Others want to play with their friends and clan-mates. Neither is wrong and I feel that the cases where 'stacking' is a result of deliberate, legitimate abuse are fewer than those that result of circumstance. Adding a mechanic like that would be detrimental at best, in my humble opinion.
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The only real solution I can see, that I've suggested before, is allow players to make a 'recommended level' setting for their lobbies. So 1 - 3 would be locked, then you could have "Recommended: 3 - 5" and "Recommended: 6+" lobby settings that players could select at set up. Nothing would fundamentally change, it would simply be a text display on the match screen.
That way it isn't restricted, but you could suggest that lower level players go to other lobbies, or suggest that higher level players do the same, based on where the person starting the lobby is. Having some sort of suggested level would let people know "This is a challenging lobby" or "this is for players who are beyond the beginner lobbies, but not quite ready to fly with the competitive players".
Players could still join at any level, but then you would have room to call someone out if say, an entire ship of level 8+ players are in a "3 - 5" lobby, and if you see a 'stacked team' in a "6+" lobby, you would know that those lower level players didn't read the requirement, or wanted a challenging match, and that the players who made the lobby made it with the intention of seeking a challenge rather than stacking for stacking's sake.
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A third option would be to leave the setting at a default "open lobby", which would basically be what we have now, so if a player wanted just anyone to join, that could be another alternative.
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Last night there were 4 games running total, If we had segregated 6+,3-5 ect we would have been playing with mostly AI crews. As for handicapping a captain can do that on their own initiative. They could run a duel merc pyra like a brawler, or take an extreamly non meta build. In that regard I have to hand it to the Cakes for aggressively shunning the meta.
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What you may have seen are crews who spend a bit longer than usual because they want to make sure all of their players know what tactics to expect and ammo to bring.
I know what I saw, and it was not that. There were two ships sitting on the blue team, match after match, with the same meta loadout, same tactics for each match, and they would not ready up until good players got bored of waiting and left. The was the worst I saw. Other times, I have suggested that the more experienced captains try a less powerful build against -first time crews-. I am glad to say that some captains were happy to play along. Others, well, they just said "Shut the **** up" or similar.
So I should be punished when my team is doing well in a match? No thanks ^^
Punished? I really don't see how it would be punishing to make the match a little more challenging for an obviously superior crew and team. I would consider it more fun. Each to his own, I suppose.
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Last night there were 4 games running total, If we had segregated 6+,3-5 ect we would have been playing with mostly AI crews.
The idea is that the match 'labeling' is optional, both in regard to the label itself and whether or not to follow the recommendation. I'm not talking about completely segregating the lobbies, but rather the ability to 'suggest' the level range. The players would then have the option to join or not based on that.
Also, as long as it's being brought up, who cares if someone uses 'meta' builds? All 'meta' means is that it's one of the more effective loadouts for that ship and style. If you choose not to use a 'meta'' build, that's fine and your prerogative, but I get a little weary at all the bemoaning of it.
'Meta' does -not- mean 'invincible'. I have lost playing 'meta' builds and won using non-'meta' builds against them. It has less to do with loadout and everything to do with the captains and crews on that team. Don't like 'meta'? Don't use it. Some people prefer and have fun using the 'meta' builds. One of the great things about this game is that there is a ship, weapon, or tactical counter for everything.
We've all seen both good and bad 'meta' ships. Don't blame the ship because you couldn't beat it. Give some credit where it's due and bear in mind that the crews make the ship, not the build.
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While countering meta without another Meta is difficult, it is, yes, very possible, that's not the point though.
When someone flies Meta, the odds are drastically stacked in their favor. Sure we could fly a meta as well, but some of us don't enjoy it and prefer to fly more difficult builds. It sucks for me because as soon as the enemy goes meta, I have to go into tryhard mode since I refuse to fly it myself. Whatever fun I was having with a Mine Launcher/Banshee Squid gets thrown out the window for a meta counter build which isn't nearly as fun.
This is just how I see it though. The most fun I have on this game is when there is no Meta in the lobby so everyone can focus on "How can I kill these guys through tactics and positioning" rather than "I have to kill these guys faster than they kill me." You want to kill them faster than they kill you all the time, that's how you win, but killing becomes easy with meta. People playing meta are on "easy mode" while everyone else is on "Hard mode."
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The new balance changes coming out should hopefully broaden what is considered meta and vary the loadouts that you see in game.
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Except that by reckoning on a quick test last night, some changes have been revoked, leaving certain things as they are now..
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People playing meta are on "easy mode" while everyone else is on "Hard mode."
I am not going to continue the topic much longer in this thread, as I already feel I may have opened a can o' worms, however, you are again missing the point of my post.
'Meta' just means that the ship has one of the most effective loadouts for that ship and style. There are non 'meta' builds that are nearly equally effective, in fact I showed one to two of your clan-mates in a Junker that would have made Cake's Sunday rumble chances last longer. Non-'meta' does not mean not effective.
Again, it has far less to do with the ships and far more to do with the crews on those ships. The "Metamidion" as it's come to be known has plenty of counters, as I've seen firsthand against the Gents, the Ducks, the Merry Men, and in countless lobbies.
Don't blame the ship if you can't beat it. Give some credit to the crews aboard that ship. It's hard to swallow your pride and do, but it's the fact of the matter. The crew makes the ship, not vice-versa.
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Additionally, on this particular topic (on 'meta' and such), I not be responding to anything else on the topic, however I would be glad to discuss it at length in private with anyone who would care to. I don't want to derail this thread any further than I already (unintentionally) have.
I will be glad to continue discussing the issue of stacking, however I have spoken my mind on the issue of 'meta' and will be leaving it at that from this point onward.
Apologies to the original poster.
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The idea is that the match 'labeling' is optional, both in regard to the label itself and whether or not to follow the recommendation. I'm not talking about completely segregating the lobbies, but rather the ability to 'suggest' the level range. The players would then have the option to join or not based on that.
There is nothing stopping you from labeling your game "Suggested Level 6+." I have seen similarly named games in the past. However people outside the level range always find their way in. Either through Quick Join, poor reading skills, or the lack of available games.
I see taking non meta builds as an act of bravado. When I am on a stacked side and I don't want to or can't swap to the other team, I take some funky experimental build as a way of testing myself and my crew. I encourage anyone on a win streak to do the same.
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Actually that sounds intersting, have a game mode (or an agreement) where winning teams have to change ship types after they win and can't chose that ship type again until their opponent beats them.
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Actually that sounds intersting, have a game mode (or an agreement) where winning teams have to change ship types after they win and can't chose that ship type again until their opponent beats them.
...what happens if you win with all the ship types?
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Actually that sounds intersting, have a game mode (or an agreement) where winning teams have to change ship types after they win and can't chose that ship type again until their opponent beats them.
...what happens if you win with all the ship types?
Then we send the opponents back to the newbie pool!
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When I am on a stacked side and I don't want to or can't swap to the other team, I take some funky experimental build as a way of testing myself and my crew. I encourage anyone on a win streak to do the same.
This is something I do too. I usually take the score as a guideline, if the matches are close regardless of the sides then the balance is right for me
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I try to read full threads before posting but I think this topic is familiar enough to me to wing it.
Stacking in matches is a right of all players. It has several effects on the lobby in which it is occurring.
1. Inability to win (note that 5-3 or 5-2 matches are possible)
2. Breeding bitterness in randoms
3. Not creating a competitive challenge for competitive players.
Our merit as good players depends on the battles we face but is also dependent on our ability to fly well together (which requires practice). Mentioned earlier was clans "stacking" in order to practice. In these situations I recommend making your purpose clear and asking for "good" players in global to fight against you.
The case against stacking is good overall save the aforementioned caveat. I have had great matches against random players and only at the expense of talking to my friends in party and then doing my best to help the less skilled players in lobby. Either way (stack or not) this game can be fun if all players are actively listening and trying. Good players provide a challenge for the community as well as an opportunity to share advice and knowledge.
So in a nutshell, don't stack if you can't match atleast half of the players (only if they are cooperative) and gain the cooperation of your fellow noobs. As the graphic at the start of the thread said they are our future players!
-CC
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I usually do nothing to avoid stacking, but if my ally ship wants to switch sides, that's totally cool. If I've got a crew I like, I don't care who I'm fighting, stacked for us, stacked for them, as long as I'm playing.
About 70% of the matches I'm in are stacked. Rarely is this intentional, but this is an example of what I see most often.
I join a mostly empty lobby and grab a captain slot. The other team has a level 1-3 pilot with a similar crew, and an empty ship beside them. After a bit, a higher level 6-9 pilot joins in on the other team, sees that his ally is a low level, sees that I'm a higher level, and switches teams to be on my side.
I don't think this captain is doing this to be a dick, he's doing it to win, and I'd do the same thing. If however I'm already in my spot and a low level captain joins my side, I'll stick with him. Everyone wants to fly with higher levels because it increases their chances to win. All levels are guilty of it.
The time I don't see stacking is with multi level clans fighting each other. I'd much rather fly alongside a low level fellow Cake than a high level pilot I don't know.
I use pilots as examples but the same applies to all classes.
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Cake has a tendency to fly on both teams against each other, breeds lots of random comments between games and during matches. In all seriousness however Intentional pubstomps are something I can't really care for, it's also rather rude and inconsiderate. On the case of unintentional stacking however, that is another case entirely.