Guns Of Icarus Online
Admin => Dev App Testing => Topic started by: Ayetach on February 27, 2016, 02:02:50 pm
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Hi guys,
Sorry for the delay here's the release notes for our non-blind testing tomorrow at 12pm EST (5pm UTC).
Balance Changes:
-Mobula side guns fanned outwards 5 additional degrees—to increase the difficulty of full weapon’s platform functionality without disallowing common builds
-Spire reduced turn acceleration to 10d/s2 (from 15)—to make it easier for other ships to flank the Spire
-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play
-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat
-Heavy Flak has more damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%). Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2) means damage per shot is reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive), BUT damage per second is the SAME due to increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from 0.8), and reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5)—to increase ease of use in both range (more damage in direct for within arming distance shots) and aiming (more shots to judge arc before reload)
-Harpoon has right click to reel in with increased harpoon force to 1500000 (from 230000)—major feature request
-Hwacha now fires its entire clip with one click—to increase risk reward of the weapon and to reduce its overall reliance in matches
-Pyramidon hull health increased to 700 (from 550)
-Falling airships now respect each airship’s unique vertical drag profiles. Previously, ships all had a ‘controlled’ fall rather than accelerating due to gravity. The result is realistic falling acceleration that takes into airship vertical drag. In other words, you were closer to playing Guns of Icarus in Space than you realized.—fixed glitch that possibly introduces more interesting ways to play and shift meta
Be sure to let us know what you think after tomorrow's testing at feedback@musegames.com
Thanks again for your help and support!
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I look forward to the new, mono-squid meta.
(This is going to be brutal, though. Nerfing every Squid Counter, and giving the Squid a double buff is going to end up with the comp meta being pretty much entirely Squid+Something else pairings.)
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It's here... what we've all been waiting for...
The GRAVITY PATCH!
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I already disagree with the Squid's side gun turning and the Hwacha. Squid will only become a better Pyramidion this way and the Hwacha will still easily disable every ship in one clip from 400m, only long range was nerfed after it was already nerfed when heavy clip was nerfed.
Oh yeah, and the Harpoon needing a person to actively reel in is a waste of a crewmember. Although I do like where it is, that is my only worry.
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to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play
to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/theunderhills/Gaming/Facepalm-Meme-Gif-08.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/theunderhills/media/Gaming/Facepalm-Meme-Gif-08.jpg.html)
Hwacha now fires its entire clip with one click—to increase risk reward of the weapon and to reduce its overall reliance in matches
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/theunderhills/171.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/theunderhills/media/171.jpg.html)
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It'll make it harder to chain disable in close-range. Sometimes you keep half a clip to work on engines after guns, or disable after the rebuild.
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Yay! Why bother with tactical shooting when we can arcade this game into oblivion?
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I was actually the one who suggested it. The thread-and reactions-are in the Feedback and Suggestions forums. I'm interested to hear your opposition. I thought it increases gunner skill-cap, while still keeping it useful for noobs, because you have to aim better to avoid wasted shots. It gives the gun an actual skill-cap.
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So you guys have decided to turn the squid into a faster pyra (but buff the pyra because you kinda realize how silly this is). You have decided to nerf the weapons platform ship, because it's a... weapons... platform...ship (you know, rather than leave it as a weapons platform, and nerf it's turning, armor, health, speed and/or acceleration). And you have decided to nerf the spire's best defensive weapon (the only thing that was making it competitive in the hwacha), and buff a different heavy weapon (which I actually love), except for the fact that both have terribly limited horizontal arcs, and you just nerfed its turning speed, so none of it matters because good luck getting that heavy flak on a squid before it's behind you.
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Squid doesn't need more speed. I'd much rather give it higher turning speed which would give a bigger incentive to drop phoenix claw for tar or chute vent. Faster turning makes it easier to circle a ship (more than speed) and would mean you don't have to slow yourself down by using claw or spending precious stamina
The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players. Please just nerf the acceleration or hull/armor or something besides relegating it to a ranged only ship
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Am I weird or hwacha actually doesn't work as described for me? I still can shoot only few bullets in dev app sandbox practice.
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I was actually the one who suggested it. The thread-and reactions-are in the Feedback and Suggestions forums. I'm interested to hear your opposition. I thought it increases gunner skill-cap, while still keeping it useful for noobs, because you have to aim better to avoid wasted shots. It gives the gun an actual skill-cap.
Sure, you do need to aim pretty good to hit with the hwacha. That's why good gunners use a few missiles to get a trajectory feel and then semi-automatic fire it for full effect. That is using the patience, knowledge and skill needed to operate the gun. What new players (your angryjoes) like to do, is hop on, look at the enemy for two seconds and then fire an entire clip without thinking. So instead of pushing them to the "best you can be" standard, we've nerfed it so that you have to fire like you are brand new to the hwacha. This doesn't promote better aiming, or how to get better. It nerfs vets to an even playing field with new players. There is some skill involved in anticipating your shots (if you are really, really good) sure, but this isn't a huge skill thing that's gonna result.
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A newbie will empty a clip, and miss, unless they're very, very close. Someone who has practiced will empty a clip, and hit.
Currently, the ability to use shots as tracers means that it requires very little actual skill to use at a high level. The only skill required is simple knowledge of "how to use a gun." It isn't hard to fire. There's very little difference between someone who's spent 20 hours on a hwatcha, and someone's who spent 50.
The Guns community as a whole needs to stop comparing themselves to raw newbies when trying to assess the skill cap of a gun or ship, and compare themselves to other vets. There should always be a difference between an experienced player and a newbie, but for a game to be competitive, there needs to be a difference between a proficient/competent player, and a great one.
The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players. Please just nerf the speed or acceleration or something besides relegating it to a ranged only ship
You can still do close-range mobulas. You just have to rely on the inner guns. A nerf to speed or acceleration would relegate it to a simple weapons platform. Currently, it's a better junker. Good at everything, with many more potential gun combinations. If there's a problem with the Artemis meta, it's because the Artemis is the best long-range gun.
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The only time when this will come into play is at 600-700m+, when you need to switch to heavy to be at your most effective.
I just don't understand that logic behind this. Artillery experts have been firing gauging shots since the catapult to dial in accuracy. There is skill, and then patience, planning and strategy have to take over.
When I first started playing naval action, I was full volley firing my cannons everytime, and I did terrible. Then I learned that the space bar shoots a single cannonball. Suddenly I was firing a few cannonballs to dial in my shots, and then ripping into my opponent with a full volley of cannon-y goodness. I was rewarded for my patience and tactical use with more accuracy. I was punished when I just opened up (even when aiming carefully).
This isn't a matter of skill, it's a matter of using a gun intelligently. That's what this has taken away. By this logic, every gun should fully automatically empty its clip. Every gun takes skill after all. If we're no longer using numbers to balance guns, might as well make em all work the same.
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Hwatchas, however, traditionally use burst fire. They do not use marking shots. They are the ultimate in spray-and-pray. If there's any weapon that lore-wise, it makes sense to burst fire, it would be the hwatcha.
Also, the Spire can't use a single OP heavy weapon as a crutch. It needs buffs vastly beyond any problems with guns to be viable. Massive exposed hull, exposed componants, and meaningless vertical acceleration keep it from being viable at long range. At close, it's obvious that muse doesn't really know how to handle Heavy Weapons from a design POV, as they can't balance them so they work on every ships that mounts them. What's good for a Goldfish makes a Spire broken, and so forth. Massive re-designs are needed.
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On that I agree. Spire has needed the correct buffs for ages to be viable on it's own, and I've given up on that front. They can't agree on how to do it, and at this point they'll never listen to us or figure it out on their own. And yes, they are also terrible at figuring out heavy guns, which is evident by the sheer lack of them (even new guns in Alliance).
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Hwatchas, however, traditionally use burst fire. They do not use marking shots. They are the ultimate in spray-and-pray. If there's any weapon that lore-wise, it makes sense to burst fire, it would be the hwatcha.
I'll agree with you there, if by lore you meant historically, because there is no lore on it. The Chinese "Nest of Bees" was spray and pray. However, this is a game in which heavy armoured airships shoot solar powered lasers, and tesla coils. I'm suspending my belief on how all these guns work. I am also suspending my belief, that after 3 years, this dev team will ever figure out how to balance their own game well. If anything is spray and pray, it's their balancing/design style.
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Probably not the place, but they should honestly just take off the bottom light weapon of the Spire, keep the turn speed down, maybe make it faster, and up the armor massively, while leaving the hull low. It *needs* lots of armor to work at range, with how much hull is exposed, and how hard it is to get it into cover. If it's gimmick is going to be "Only ship with a forward Light Armor/Heavy Weapon overlap" then the obvious downside to that is outmaneuvering.
Edit: Bottom light weapon is removed to limit versatility, and make arcs matter.
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Thank you! I have been saying this for two years. Someone from Muse send Howard over here!
They got crazy with this "low armour means faster tanking idea" awhiles back. It works on the squid and fish, not the spire.
The spire is the original gunship. Unlike the mobula, it can't vertically evade. It's too tall, and it's a risk or just damn impossible on many maps. Unlike the junker, it doesn't have a slim profile, and broadsides to dodge side to side. It's a big target at small or long range. At long a merc, and artemis pair can pull it apart easily. At short, it can't stand up to flanks, or gat/mortar pressure. It's F'ed in either range band. It has always needed something else to survive, and that's either a lot of armor, or a new "true horizontal" side movement mechanic. It needs everyone on a gun to be effective. It's only defense is a good offense. If everyone isn't shooting, it's dead. There is no other reason to bring it. In order to do this, there needs to be enough armor to absorb long and short range punishment in order to fulfill its role. The balance is in the skill of the crew, just like the junker; if you mess up your shooting, you're dead. That high armour will give you just enough time to kill, but if wait too long or mess up somewhere, eventually the armour will go down and you'll die very fast. But... that armour needs to be high enough, so that a main engineer isn't standing at the damn hull the moment a fight starts!
This is where Eric will chime in with his arrogant, smug expression saying "well if the crew is really good, or the pilot is smart, they'll ambush. Why is your engineer starting the fight at the hull anyway?" Well Eric, it's because the strength of that low armour, high health design is the fact that you can bring that armour up fast. It rewards a playstyle that has more crew repairing the hull at once. High armour=one mallet limit (effective, but risky). Low armour=many spanners (spam saves us, lose effectiveness). Low armour works really well on the squid and fish because they have speed, limited guns, and easy accessible hull for all crew (even pilot). So by this design, your spire gunship, needs your heavy weapon gunner off the gunn constantly, running halfway up the ship, while your bottom engineer needs to run the entire length. So to use that many spanners design ideally (since you gave it the low armour, I'm assuming you wanted many spanners) your pilot has to be going to the hull, not flying. What's the point of that many guns facing forward when one crew member has to baby-sit the hull the entire fight, and another engineer has to leave a gun the moment you need engines or balloon?! You just lost 66% effectiveness, and chances are all that's firing is your gunner, on a heavy weapon that are designed to NOT be stand-alone!
So either you have one engineer being very ineffective on the hull (because this design works best with, that's right, many spanners!), slight effective with no pilot or no second engineer on a gun/bottom components, or highly effective with no one doing anything but spamming spanners. That's how you design a gunship folks. I'm done with this joke, please get rid of that clown and hire a lead game designer with some humility and even more experience. It's been 3 years! Most MMO's don't last this long. You've done well with the support of a community, but you're skating on thin ice. You guys can't keep leaving balance to the whims of this amateur, it's going to destroy your company.
P.S. my partner has told me she'd give Muse 10 grand on the spot if they ever did sack him. She knows Howard won't, but she is dead serious. So if you guys ever get desperate enough and need 10 grand, she'll get the checkbook.
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-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play
-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat
What's this? The Squid is a ship marked as "hard", but the patch wants to make it easier for less experienced players?
(http://i.imgur.com/hTOCsU5.png)
If the Squid is supposed to be a ship for newbies, then it should be marked as such and then you might as well unlock it for novice matches.
Or better yet, turn the front or back gun more to the side instead, which is an actual way of making it easier for the Squid to circle targets, making it a more manouverable brawl Junker rather than a flat out better Pyramidion, we already have the Mobula for that.
The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players.
You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprsingly nothing. The only think this really affects are close range guns on the top deck of Hades, double Artemis Mobulas, making it slightly harder to execute a multi range allrounder. Slightly.
Oh yeah, and Spire nerf is completely unnecessary.
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-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play
-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat
What's this? The Squid is a ship marked as "hard", but the patch wants to make it easier for less experienced players?
(http://i.imgur.com/hTOCsU5.png)
If the Squid is supposed to be a ship for newbies, then it should be marked as such and then you might as well unlock it for novice matches.
Or better yet, turn the front or back gun more to the side instead, which is an actual way of making it easier for the Squid to circle targets, making it a more manouverable brawl Junker rather than a flat out better Pyramidion, we already have the Mobula for that.
The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players.
You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprsingly nothing. The only think this really affects are close range guns on the top deck of Hades, double Artemis Mobulas, making it slightly harder to execute a multi range allrounder. Slightly.
Oh yeah, and Spire nerf is completely unnecessary.
We've entered the novel "1984", and Muse has switched to doublethink
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I'm honestly positive about every change except the Squid one. Look, I'm on record as *hating* Sniping/Midrange meta, and loving brawling. The squid will become the best ship, though. It will be Squids of Icarus. Yes, there will be differences in skill, in loadout...but comp is just going to be a mirror of the Pyra era, but with Squids.
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I want to be. I've been advocating for a heavy flak buff/redesign as long as the spire. But, it's like every step forward with them is two steps back. Whatever they do well, is overshadowed by the complete lunacy of the bad. I just wish they'd deliver on those private server promises so I can finally balance the game (if they even allow us that option at that point).
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You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprisingly nothing.
Here are the minimum distances needed to get three 50 degree flaks in arc. I don't see how this helps balance the mobula. It nerfs new pilots and restricts guns
(http://i.imgur.com/zZG3xsX.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/4ujbcUF.jpg?1)
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But usually you have on Artemis on one side or a Banshee/Flak is on the bottom deck. Double Flak is pointless and if somebody does bring double Banshee on the top deck, then they usually have either close range guns or Artemises on the bottom deck. If there is a single Flak or Banshee on the top deck, then at worst you have to turn a little bit, but other ships also have to turn when they want to trifecta, so this is more like equalizing the penalty for using trifecta, I guess.
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The point is to show that 5 degrees isn't nothing. It may have little effect on experienced players so why do it? It increases the skill cap and doesn't address why the mob is OP
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Who knows, why nerf the Spire that is not seen in competitive and buff the Squid that is already successful in competitive?
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Who knows, why nerf the Spire that is not seen in competitive and buff the Squid that is already successful in competitive?
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Hi guys,
Sorry for the delay here's the release notes for our non-blind testing tomorrow at 12pm EST (5pm UTC).
Balance Changes:
-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play
-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat
One of these is not needed.
Just, as a squid pilot, if we make it easier for the two guns to arc easier, the mobility isn't really a needed addition, let alone you then made it hard to do some real fun passes with a triple whammy....such as stripping with a gat, zooming by, and then using the rear gun as a third option to stay in position, instead of maneuvering around.
And even with how the squid is now, jostling with your throttle to keep the guns you have in arch is a learned skill, but if you turn the gun forward, well that need is reduced, which I'm not fully complaining about..if you make it easier for a ship to give guns arc, then increase their mobility...well...I guess we'll just have fun with merc + lightflak squids that won't ever get touched...once you master that, not even a minotaur can ruin your day (it's called Kerosine or Moonshine and a great crew.)
So if we are trying either of these, it's either one or the other, not both, is what I'm trying to say....
For argument of "helping newer players."
Yes, the gun change will help...but, the mobility change can help as well. Learning to position is a key for every ship really, the Squid is no different.
As for Hwatcha...
Why?
I know it's over used...I know it's annoying...but why the entire clip...why not just...reduce the clip size?
I might be one of the few people who scatter shots with burst rounds when close enough to disable then follow-up-kill when hull goes down, or into another disable, a reduced clip would easily nerf that strength as well...
Otherwise, I'd just run my Hwatcha Galleon with an engineer who repair everything and have my gunner jump back and fourth between the hwatchas...and nothing would change...
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I might be one of the few people who scatter shots with burst rounds when close enough to disable then follow-up-kill when hull goes down, or into another disable, a reduced clip would easily nerf that strength as well...
Most people with any experience do not use the whole clip in one volley. This is why it's a very low-skill weapon to use effectively. The only difference is between a novice, and a vet, rather than between a vet, and a vet with more skill/experience. This adds a skill aspect to the Hwatcha, and makes it harder to use effectively. A newbie *can* use it well, but using it to full potential will require prediction, accuracy, and reflex, and timing now.
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Making the hwacha fire its entire clip at once does not fix hwacha use; it breaks the hwacha further. The hwacha is nice because it's very user-friendly. Now it isn't, yet it's still overpowered. Because of this "auto-fire" change, you cannot trust new players with it because they cannot test their fire. Hell, if the ship is turning at all, this screws lots of people out of how to aim the gun, myself (and nearly everybody else I've seen shoot the gun) included.
The problem with the hwacha is its incredible power at midrange. It should REQUIRE heavy clip to hit anything past mid-short range. Burst should be used at close range. How does Muse not understand this? Just increase the spread and it's fixed!
I don't know why the Squid needed buffs, but these changes are in the wrong direction as well. Raise the skill ceiling; don't make the Squid easy-mode. The Squid should be incredibly nimble and made of paper. It should run circles (literally) around the enemy, but one mistake should have severe repercussions. And As I said previously, if you're going to change a gun arc, change the front gun to angle to the right. Don't ruin the side-rear gun bifecta ability.
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Just one thing noone's pointed out here. 5 degree outward rebalance on the mobula actually helps the Hades art mobula as the artemis arcs can compensate for the nerf the most, whilst killing pilots who take unorthodox builds including guns with more limited arcs. More hades art, less other mobs. #Eric
If anything, I'd rather see them adjusted 5 degrees inwards. It allows for more gun overlap possibilities aside from hades art and makes it easiser for flanking ships to stay out of their arcs via circling.
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Most people with any experience do not use the whole clip in one volley. This is why it's a very low-skill weapon to use effectively. The only difference is between a novice, and a vet, rather than between a vet, and a vet with more skill/experience. This adds a skill aspect to the Hwatcha, and makes it harder to use effectively. A newbie *can* use it well, but using it to full potential will require prediction, accuracy, and reflex, and timing now.
Yeah..and hope that your ship doesn't move.
But even then, to factor in all those, a reduction in clipsize, or an increase in scatter would also require some finess..mostly with how to shoot and when and with what even.
Most new Hwatcha ships get in and stay close, so that isn't going to change with the one shot = missiles away or a reduction in clip or spread...
in fact, the one click = missiles away will most likely increase the numbers of ships being in your face as that's going to be the only way to make the gun effective.
I'm not a fan of the Hwatcha, but if you're going to do a missiles away...then that reload time better be reduced.
Oh and ....let's face it...Hwatcha is probably the best gun to fight a Squid with...have fun pairing new Hwatcha against New Squid...better hope you land all those shots onto those engines without missing!
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I am against the Squid buff. It is utterly unnecessary.
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You have that backwards. A dump clip weapon has less skill than one you can selectively shoot. Fewer skills to learn and perfect. Fewer reasons to learn timing. You turn it into a one-trick pony that you shoot and hope it works.
We tested this in devapp a long time ago with Injection Clip. It was stupid. You fire and pray and jump to the other gun.
As for the Squid, I love the changes. In fact, it is now so nub friendly that I figured we should give the same treatment to the other really hard ship. I made a compilation of ideas in the image below.
(http://i.imgur.com/dffvkXv.jpg)
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Has anybody in blind testing even noticed the Hwacha change?
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Has anybody in blind testing even noticed the Hwacha change?
I did, but the situation for me to hold my clip only happened once and when it didn't happen I thought it was caused by lag.
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The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the flawed idea of increasing the pyramidion hull and not changing acceleration. Before this patch it seemed we were all in consensus that the pyramidion should be relegated to a ship that does well in a planned ambush and fails when you just throw yourself at the enemy. Adding the hull value only prolongs the death of the ship and gives pilots false confidence. It seems that we've taken a step back and obviously muse is not on the same page.
Muse needs to decide whether they want the pyramidion to be a new player friendly ship or a hard ship that can only succeed well with good understanding of positionin and skill. Although the layout of the ship promotes well and easily defined roles, it's complete and utter lack of acceleration and maneuverability make it frustrating and not fun to fly to say the least. If muse is aiming at making squid an "easy and more accessible" ship, they need to make pyramidion a harder ship that can be extremely effective in capable hands. However, due to the squid's engineering layout lending itself towards chaos and confusion for most new players, I must disagree with this "squidimidion" idea.
On the whole, I do not understand these patch ideas. If you just nerfed caronades, why are you buffing gravity and fall time? If you understand that gat mortar combo+ maneuverable ship is a balancing nightmare, why are you doing it again? Why is the spire being nerfed???
The only sensible ideas in this change list is the flak buff and maybe the harpoon buff, although I see that gun as a lost cause besides backgalleonharpoonOP™. But honesty on the other hand, I'm kinda just interested in a change at this point. So part of me, although I dislike these changes, just wants to see a different era of GOIO meta. Normally this could be done with just adding a new gun,ship, tool etc (that is actually effective- :( Minotaur), but since muse are too busy with alliance that won't happen anytime soon.
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I did test it, and it is not dump clip yet.
As for the meta change, Medic, I have proposed several things (emailed) that should help if ever done. The major thing is a third Terminal falloff damage on each gun, completely changing the long/short range dynamic (full thread is in feedback). A less major thing is switching the effects of buff and stamina for gunner. As for ship balance, I have not given too much thought to it yet, other than a few changes that would also require more features (such as ram point multipliers).
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I completely agree with Medic there. Although, to be fair I was not alone when I felt as if the Pyramidion got an acceleration buff in practise mode. Maybe it was only, because there was no actual ship combat against, so the Pyramidion felt comparably faster than nothing at all.
I wouldn't mind the gravity change, if only it wouldn't kill the Galleon. For everybody that didn't check it yet, the new Meta crew loadouts for Galleons are as follows:
Pilot: Drouge Chute, Drouge Chute, Phoenix Claw and a crew member with Drouge Chute
Two engineers on the top deck spamming Spanner at the balloon
A third engineer on the bottom deck repairing the engines.
Who shoots the guns? Nobody! It doesn't matter, lose the balloon once on a Galleon and you are out for the next few minutes, you can respawn faster into a better position than going back up. Maybe you can hope to shoot some Lumberjacks as well, because that is going to be the literal only gun that will have arc.
But that Galleon thing may just be overreaction, although a nerf, no matter how inderict, is the last thing the Galleon needs.
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Dementio, did you go to the Byron School for Ace Piloting Galleons & You Can 2?!
But no seriously, you are correct. The galleon is as strong as its guns. A squid buff and a gravity change is the end of the galleon. It really is. That's coming from me. I've stubbornly held onto the galleon all this time, despite it being against me. This is the nail.
I'm not even angry though. I knew it was coming, I prepared for it. I probably won't be playing much anyway (favourite ship galleon and spire); I'm not interested in Guns of Squids. Do I drop the online? I can never tell.
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I cannot speak for Dementio, but I do that every Wednesday evening.
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But no seriously, you are correct. The galleon is as strong as its guns. A squid buff and a gravity change is the end of the galleon. It really is. That's coming from me. I've stubbornly held onto the galleon all this time, despite it being against me. This is the nail.
A good Squid can disable a galleon without a sweat already. Imagine it when Squids don't have to jostle around to do that as much.
In fact, the only Galleon I have a hard time to Squid against IS a Hwatcha Racecar Galleon..
Camping their balloon is the only way to not get disabled, but you got to keep their ally in idea...learning to bail from the Galleon to nail their Ally, only to know that the Galleon Balloon is going up and gonna wreck your squid's engines...and the fact they only know how to go Forward makes positioning a bit annoying...
But with the Squid Buffs, that'll be history! :D
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Absolutely, hence my point. How many vets do you see piloting galleons anymore? You're shooting yourself in the foot CURRENTLY just doing it. That's why this patch is the nail in the coffin. A good galleon could maybe defend against the blending if they got their hwacha off in time. A good galleon could anticipate it by hydrogening up, and then droguing down as you got that balloon up.
I'm not complaining about the gravity thing, it's a good idea. But the limitations of heavy gun arcs , small carronades and artemis up, give the galleon no balloon defense. If this goes in, either heavy gun, artemis, or small carronade arcs need to be looked at, and the squid needs to be nerfed (not buffed), just to give the galleon a small window of a chance. Otherwise, they don't even need to kill you anymore. You'll be left on the ground; the other team will just 2v1 your team mate...that's how I would do it, if I want to win. Muse, even if you're at the flight ceiling, how much fun do you think it is for a galleon's crew to be hard countered immediately, without anything you can do? The moment that balloon is popped, all your crew can do is wave and smile at the squid/goldfish.
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Ehh, I don't really think the galleon is too weak right now tbh. The heavy use of mobulas in the meta means that the galleon's reliable output of hades and lumberjack damage does really well against mobula at midrange. You can see this by watching the Cronus League today, with Team Predators taking a galleon a number of times against mobulas with great results. The galleons main benefit is dat lumberjack. Lumberjack counters the idea of blending down the galleon because as long as its ally is nearby and the galleon is turned in the right direction, lj has ridiculous upwards arcs and can aid their ally and turn the tide, thereby saving themselves. Unlike on the goldfish or spire, where when you are blending down you can easily rammed or killed, galleon can tank for a while and still help its ally with lumberjack. I haven't actually tested what the gravity means in terms of survivability for the Galleon, but if being on the ground gets you killed very fast and the galleon can't tank, that's a massive nerf. Apparently I read that at height ceiling of dunes you fall nearly to the ground in one rebuild time? That is way too much.
But honestly, I don't understand the need for gravity anyway. What is it trying to balance? Is it trying to balance mobula by making it fall faster? That doesn't make sense because Mobula is extremely light, and why would you use a game wide balance for one ship? It's just like they looked at what mechanic they had for gravity and thought, "why the hell not". If this gravity patch does go through I will expect to see caronades everywhere again, and just like that we're back to people complaining about the blending meta.
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This is exactly the reason I argued against reducing the original arcs of the Minotaur. It was almost as good as the Lumberjack in upwards arc, and could somewhat defend a Galleon or Spire from blenders. Then it was nerfed to hell and turned into a long range disrupter, then nerfed again so it is not even very good at that. Why you hate Galleons so much, Muse? Now to compensate further, the guns have been splayed more on the Mobula....
Training wheels for everything. Replace side guns on Goldfish with waterwings.
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A lot of hate going out. This game is still gonna be good. The gravity patch sounds like it is going to screw some things up but nothing a buff to drogue chute and hydrogen couldn't fix, right?
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Ehh, I don't really think the galleon is too weak right now tbh. The heavy use of mobulas in the meta means that the galleon's reliable output of hades and lumberjack damage does really well against mobula at midrange. You can see this by watching the Cronus League today, with Team Predators taking a galleon a number of times against mobulas with great results. The galleons main benefit is dat lumberjack. Lumberjack counters the idea of blending down the galleon because as long as its ally is nearby and the galleon is turned in the right direction, lj has ridiculous upwards arcs and can aid their ally and turn the tide, thereby saving themselves. Unlike on the goldfish or spire, where when you are blending down you can easily rammed or killed, galleon can tank for a while and still help its ally with lumberjack. I haven't actually tested what the gravity means in terms of survivability for the Galleon, but if being on the ground gets you killed very fast and the galleon can't tank, that's a massive nerf. Apparently I read that at height ceiling of dunes you fall nearly to the ground in one rebuild time? That is way too much.
But honestly, I don't understand the need for gravity anyway. What is it trying to balance? Is it trying to balance mobula by making it fall faster? That doesn't make sense because Mobula is extremely light, and why would you use a game wide balance for one ship? It's just like they looked at what mechanic they had for gravity and thought, "why the hell not". If this gravity patch does go through I will expect to see caronades everywhere again, and just like that we're back to people complaining about the blending meta.
We're not talking about current build galleons. While needing a very skilled and coordinated crew, they can be viable. I am talking specifically about the gravity change with the squid change. Have you seen how fast a galleon drops now? A squid can easily position on a galleons blind spot and blend it. With the gravity change one blend will remove him from the fight so they can 2v1, two blends and he's grinding on the ground. Mobulas are not the issue. Lumberjacks are not, and will not counter the squid, or even a blenderfish with this gravity change. That is, and has been the galleons weakness, since pretty much GOIO's beta. So this gravity change basically enhances the galleons primary weakness (indirect nerf). Again, I don't think scrapping the gravity thing is the answer, I like it. The issue is the galleon's counter blending defense; it has none. Either the heavy carronade, artemis, or hwacha need to be able to aim above its own balloon now to fix this.
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Would a possible positioning change of some of the gun mounts fix this problem, similar to the tipped up angles on the Crusader? Though, I do get a little seasick firing those guns. I would also add a crow's nest gun on the Galleon right side.
Changing the buff to improve gun angles instead of stamina would definitely help. Arc shifting ammo would as well. Along with 'lefty' and 'righty' ammo types, have 'Airburst' which shifts the angle of guns up quite high, reduces side to side arcs, and shortens arming time. Buff + Airburst would allow guns to shoot at anything next to their balloon (also making gunners more valid). But that is another topic.
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I'd like to add that this isn't just a buff to carronades. Essentially, if you miss a chem in a competitive match and some banshee/hades gets 10 stacks on your balloon by luck alone, you're going to lose that engagement automatically when the balloon's down, whereas you wouldve been able to minimize your fall distance now and fire back at your enemies if you brought good up-arcing guns. This is not a loss because of the enemy's tactical choice to bring balloon poppers, this is a loss because the enemy got lucky. This is inherently terrible for the game for both pubs and competitive.
Muse shouldn't buff balloon popping, everything's fine where it is. What they should buff is the balloon poppers, no matter how fast the ships fall I personally dont have a great time firing and piloting a heavy carronade as I used to pre nerf. Revert the damage nerf on light carronade so you dont need to stack 2 of them to be remotely effective, revert the upward arcs of Heavy Carronade but keep the downward arcs if you will so you can actually make it useful on spire again. jitter and reload speed are optional, Heavy Clip and downward arcs were the only problem with H.Carro.
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Few notes about the current state and not about the changes:
Blenderfish is fine. Not very easy to use, but I wouldn't buff it one bit.
Heavy carronade isn't. Neither is light carronade. So carro spire is a poor choice, heavy carronades on galleons are pretty sad, and light carro on any ship doesn't work without second support balloon popping weapon. Heavy clip is used less than lochnagar on guns in general. I think it's bad.
Blender squid can eliminate a galleon from the fight, given enough time.
Two brawling galleons completely massacre two squids. Tested extensively.
That is perfectly fine and as it should be.
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All I can say is that the squid really, really did not need another buff. Like.... REALLY, REALLY did not need.
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Personally i feel like spire and pyramidion are the only ships needing buffs.
I feel like every other ship is balanced.
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All I can say is that the squid really, really did not need another buff. Like.... REALLY, REALLY did not need.
I'd be fine if it was just speed...
But not the guns...
like..
Double Carronade Squid is too easy with that.
I'm all for bringing the Squid back to the glory days of mobility...but the guns...the guns are too much.
Granted, I love Squid where it is now...Can fight against dual galleons if done well...can usually be the only ship to not die...I miss the nimbleness of turning..zooming through Canyon Ambush around a pillar to do an about face and re-engage your followers without a claw...miss those days..
Thank god for Pilot Stamina...(I never have any when I squid.. :V)
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I know I'm a little late jumping in here and I haaaave missed official testing, but I wanted to echo a few thoughts and maybe add a few more:
nerfing Spire turning? WWWWWHHHHHHHY?! That's, like, the only thing it's got going for it, aside from sheer firepower (in the off chance you get that ambush juuuuust so). The Spire does, indeed, need a buff. Desperately so. But I'm not convinced just upping the armor or the speed or whatnot is going to be the answer. The weakness of the spire lies in its geometry. So much vertical hull to hit, all the guns clustered together so you can blindly shoot artemis or hwacha at the middle of the thing and start making life miserable. Ok, maybe an armor buff would be nice, but it'll still fail miserably in the face of an artemis or two. Also, the spire is weak enough to carronades WITHOUT the new gravity modifications. So, we're going to have to think about how to make it tanky AND not die to carronades in an instant AND make it less vulnerable to arts. So, basically the ship needs a complete redesign. We may not remember it, but Muse has sort of half-way done it in the passed. When the Spire was introduced, the balloon was on the top deck - so close to the helm that the pilot could repair it in a pinch - and the hull was down bellow where the balloon is now. We might think about spreading those guns out a certain amount (so shooting arts at a spire feels more like shooting arts at a mob) or providing some shielding (a la the nose of the Pyramidion), maybe rerouting the paths to hull and balloon so that wider gun placement doesn't mean longer runs to repair; otherwise balancing repairs and shooting would be so much harder that an armor buff would be moot). Actually, here's an idea that just dawned on me while I was typing this paragraph: Stagger the gun decks. The Spire is already in the shape of a spiral, so perhaps elaborating that so top deck guns are not at the same elevation and the bottom light gun sits lower than the heavy gun *might* create enough space to make dissabling harder. This, coupled with a mild buff to the armor and slightly reducing the mass of the ship could be all it needs. ... *could* Oh, and someone mentioned ditching the lower light gun? For heaven's sake no. Having the gunner be able to run two guns effectively was the best spire buff Muse ever established (with the reload mechanic where by you don't need to be on the gun at the end of the reload for ammo types to stick). Whether it's reload cycling (like what you do with hwacha and gatling. I've also done it with Hellhound and banshees, amongst other things), or having situational guns (ie a Lumberjack for range and a mine launcher for close range defence), you REAALLY want that lower light gun.
With regards to the squid, does anyone remember the dev app squid from when muse was first working on the buffs to the spire and squid along with nerfs to the pyra? It was ridiculously light and fast. It was the most fun and most terrifying time I've ever had playing this game, especially on paritan. Every terrain bump was worth an expletive, mine hits were terrifying, but the damn thing was so fast I had an enormous smile on face the whole time. THAT was what I wanted the squid to be. Its speed was its strength an its weakness all the same and I bet that would have been absolutely balanced because of this. But instead Muse reeled back the speed and upped the hull value. WHYYYYYYYYYYY?! The squid became less fun and its balance aspects less defined. It became the new pyra.
But here's another thing I wanted to touch on since we've been talking about making the squid more accessible, while some of us insist on keeping it a "hard" ship, has anyone ever thought of having the squid run with two heavy engines instead of 4 light engines? That could dramatically decrease the "Squid Chaos Crew" nature of the thing while, actually making things a little tougher for the pilot. Well, it would be harder and easier for the pilot, because you could burn the engines harder before you hit diminishing returns (both in terms of actual thrust as well as your crew's ability to keep the ship buffed and shooting guns), but as soon as an art lands on an engine, you're thrown catastrophically off balance. Couple this with a buff to squid speed (both strait-line and turning) and lightness along with nerfing the hull value tremendously and you might have a ship that's more accessible to newer crew while being a terrifying b**** to pilot. Whatcha guys think?
On the subject of the pyra, I've long contested that it should be a lawn-dart. In other words, slow to turn, fast in a straight line. It's always either been both or neither. I'm not offended by a buff to pyra hull, for that matter. With the mobility stats as they are, a pyra will still lose in a face-to-face with a spire any day of the week. Make it faster in a strait line and keep it slow (or maybe even slow it down a little more) on the turns, and you've got a game of skill and planning rather than a counter game.
The 5 degrees on the mobula gun arcs I'm a little up in the air on. The artemis' turning as it is already makes upper-deck arts a little slow to the draw in the release version of the game. That's why recently I've started running both my arts on the lower rung and simply using gat/double art as a close range option. The difference in how quickly my crews artemis fire becomes on-point amounts to orders of magnitude. So, I feel that making those upper-rung guns face further out further encourages more specialized mobulas where the loadout simply relies on the lower rung guns as far as the engies are concerned. However, with that in mind, I don't want to see the Hades Funhouse go away. I don't expect to ever use it in competitive because, even in the release version, the arcs are too damn tight. But it's a lot of fun to pub with and I'm afraid that widening those arcs by 5 degrees is going to make it worthless even in a pub match. So, with that I'll echo what others have already said: The Mobula is a weapons platform. Emphasize this when you make your balancing tweaks. If it's overpowered, maybe we need to think about its mobility rather than making it less a weapons platform.
With all that said, I want to make a more general statement: Even looking at what muse is doing with "When Ambush Comes To Shove", I still think they're making bandaid changes to things that appear overpowered. What is actually the problem is that Muse hasn't the slightest idea what the purpose of each ship is supposed to be. Once they can establish the very purpose of each and every ship, then maybe we can make some meaningful changes to the balance of the game. Once we've decided that the pyra is "The Vanguard To Lead You Into Battle" (which kind of implies it's fast and tanky and little else, not even manoeuvrable), that the squids purpose as being fast and manoeuvrable, but NOT tanky, that the weapons platforms (mobula, spire, galleon) are treated as such and have their own uniqueness to them as well (for example, I like the notion that the trade-off for running spire vs mobula is I get better manoeuvrability where I lose in having a more vulnerable geometry, but in the current metagame I don't get enough to make it worthwhile).... ... and what about the junker? How's the junker supposed to fit into this? The Junkers kind of been lost in all of this because it doesn't really seem weak, but in the current metagame everything the junker does the Mobula does better. This is why I'm REALLY disappointed to not see junker changes addressed so far. Or perhaps a nerf to the mobula's mobility could act as a junker buff. You decide.
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[stuff about Spire]
I'm fine with a slower turning speed IF THE ARMOR IS RAISED. As it is now, it's sooo weak. I agree with your latter points of treating it as a weapons platform. A tiny bit more tanky and less maneuverable would allow the guns to actually fire forward and a flank to result in death by superior maneuvers.
[stuff about Squid]
This is actually ... brilliant. The Squid is an engineering nightmare for newbs because of all those engines. Replacing four light engines with two large engines would really simplify the process and I love the idea of it being nimble and thin-skinned again.
[stuff about Pyra]
Pyra is already shit at turning... the hull buff is nice, but I still wish forward acceleration was adjusted a bit. You say lawn dart, I say rhinoceros. Same idea :)
[stuff about Mob]
As you said about weapons platforms... I agree. The problem with the Mobula isn't firepower, it's maneuverability and survivability. Keep the firepower. Tweak the other options. If Muse ruins my triple gunner Mobula build (double mercs on the left, light flak up top) I'll cry for ever :(
With all that said, I want to make a more general statement: Even looking at what muse is doing with "When Ambush Comes To Shove", I still think they're making bandaid changes to things that appear overpowered. What is actually the problem is that Muse hasn't the slightest idea what the purpose of each ship is supposed to be. Once they can establish the very purpose of each and every ship, then maybe we can make some meaningful changes to the balance of the game. Once we've decided that the pyra is "The Vanguard To Lead You Into Battle" (which kind of implies it's fast and tanky and little else, not even manoeuvrable), that the squids purpose as being fast and manoeuvrable, but NOT tanky, that the weapons platforms (mobula, spire, galleon) are treated as such and have their own uniqueness to them as well (for example, I like the notion that the trade-off for running spire vs mobula is I get better manoeuvrability where I lose in having a more vulnerable geometry, but in the current metagame I don't get enough to make it worthwhile).... ... and what about the junker? How's the junker supposed to fit into this? The Junkers kind of been lost in all of this because it doesn't really seem weak, but in the current metagame everything the junker does the Mobula does better. This is why I'm REALLY disappointed to not see junker changes addressed so far. Or perhaps a nerf to the mobula's mobility could act as a junker buff. You decide.
So, so true, so I figured I'd actually quote that.
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I'm still not sure how i feel about mobility nerfs for the spire. I still want to be able to run those wacky close range Spires, and a big part of that option is mobility. I suppose if it's a really small nerf to the turning while we get a big up to the armor, I'll still manage to moonshine backwards in order to deal with flanks. This is usually faster and more reliable than turning anyways. Plus, a mild drop in turning acceleration while maintaining turning top-speed could also serve to stabalize turning, thus making it easier to avoid that turning "twitch" that makes your hades/lumber/merc/art shots go wide.
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Don't forget to email feedback@musegames.com
For spire I often bring both hydro and drogue against balloon poppers. The nerf would make this much more difficult. -1/3 turning is harsh but the spire is powerful in pub matches with a high win rate
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However, with that in mind, I don't want to see the Hades Funhouse go away.
Hades Funhouse still works fine. A bit more of a challenge.
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Hey Guys,
Just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback. As always these tests are not the final version and all your feedback has been noted so we can talk about them internally and see if we can dial this patch better.
We are the first to admit this balance patch is huge compared to our normal style and we will be taking it slow and making sure we get it a close to perfect as possible which means more testing, more feedback, and more Muse time figuring out the parts we did well (like flak) and parts that are not feeling correct yet (like gravity.)
We're going to spend tomorrow talking about the feedback and figuring out what we need to do to shift everything in the correct direction.
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The spire still dies quickly if you even try to flank it!
Its HUGE! easy to HIT and now it wont be able to REACT!
Even in competetive i see people having a hard time using it.
The only time spire shines is when no one aims at it, but its so big you cant miss it.
And because of the heavy guns it will always reveal its position.
Im still suggesting to make the acceleration (not speed) greater, simply due to how that will make the slender but HUGE body able to actually Slip by shots, duck and dive from and into cover. And maybe even make the adjustable speed a necessity for the spire instead of just full-steam every time.
Or go for the safer option of bringing back classic spire armor, or up the health even more (Which i think is ridiculous)
I dont know anymore... These beta patch notes are really blind for us to make sense of where you want the game to go.
oh and hi guys long time no see, my cold dead hand is reaching up for some reason in defense of the spiur
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oh and hi guys long time no see, my cold dead hand is reaching up for some reason in defense of the spiur
Right here with you man! *Fists in the air*
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I'll put up my two cents on the Spire...
It's a floating gun platform. It's supposed to be able to turn.
I'm all for idea on flanking, but...That's what a Squid is for if you're going to close range a Spire.
The easiest way to kill a spire, in my opinion, was to never try to head on it, or flank it, but have a means to disable it from a distance.
Knock out the balloon, hull, and guns from afar, to say...then rush in for the kill.
The glass cannon can't shoot if the guns are broken...so trying to fight a spire with a Hwatcha Fish? Heavy Clip it from afar.
Both Engineers can't shoot if they're rebuilding the balloon / hull...
If you're in a close-map, say Paritan or Canyon...well...most people on the Spire look forward...you can use the map to Flank...
I understand the want to make it easier to Flank, but the answer isn't based around brawling on Dunes...making one ship that is already a glass cannon easier to flank reduces ideas for tactical gameplay...
I mean, if we're just gonna get rid of the idea of maybe you should snipe...might as well get rid of those long-range weapons...
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The game is very poorly balanced when it comes to long-range combat currently anyway.
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The game is very poorly balanced when it comes to long-range combat currently anyway.
Only thing a spire that is easier to Flank would become is the long-range combat.
Basically, turning speed nerf would just nerf the Hwatcha Spire...which would come down to changing build and tactic a bit.
Does the gunner fire a few shots to disable the guns of an attacking ship, if they can? Do you replace that gunner with a buff engineer?
......really the nerf does nerf gunners more than anything else...why have a gunner when you can have a buff burst engineer who buffs your turners...kinda like now..
Basically, from what I can see, is the aggressive brawling spire would be less commonplace (and part of me says good riddance, the other part shrugs, and a third thinks about batman..) But if you can get in, and demolish first, repair later...as most of those builds try to go for, then it can still work, basically, the Brawler Spire would still retain it's glass cannon...just the risk v reward increases. Maybe instead of Three gats...you throw in a mine launcher on one of the sides...maybe not..
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Spire does not work in long-range combat. Its components are too exposed, it's impossible not to hit hull if you are firing in it's vague direction, and it's low armor/decent health combo means you instantly have one person tied in up repairs.
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I'll put up my two cents on the Spire...
It's a floating gun platform. It's supposed to be able to turn.
This. Aesthetically and practically, the Spire appears and should function as a slow-moving, sturdy weapons platform that can spin relatively quickly. It should have good armor and hull (I'll leave the numbers up to you), should be able to maneuver up and down relatively well and rotate relatively well, but it should be SLOW! Speed should be its primary weakness, and it should have no particular strength or weakness beyond that.
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It's the second fastest ship in terms of acceleration
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It's the second fastest ship in the game in terms of acceleration
Doesn't look like it should be, but either way, to make this ship "easier to flank" would be to either reduce the speed...or reduce the turning speed.
Neither answer will sit well here. (Didn't they try to reduce the forward/backwards acceleration a while back...like a year or so ago?)
With a reduced speed, you still keep your ambush capabilities and sniping capabilities, AND insta kill capabilities, but the way you play would be risk over reward.
Do you risk charging in knowing you can overshoot and have a hard time turning? If you do...the reward can be instant death for either ship...
The big thing it would do is you're going to see 3 engineers on a Spire (which I guess is normal...) one being buff engie with burst rounds on that hwatcha...
And face it, hwatcha has stopped being a gunner's gun for some time now...I don't recall the last time I used heavy clip to snipe out components with hwatcha in ages...just grab burst rounds and go.
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It's the second fastest ship in terms of acceleration
Doesn't mean it should be. The Spire does not look the part and most likely wasn't designed with that intention. I've heard it was supposed to be a city defense platform. I'm judging based on aesthetics. Similarly, the Squid should not be so resilient, the Mobula shouldn't rise so quickly, etc.
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The speed buff was an attempt to help balance it. While it didn't help balance it did make it more powerful