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Messages - Thomas

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601
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Freezing damage
« on: October 26, 2013, 06:07:26 pm »
xD those are some interesting pictures. Kinda frightening really. I also like the thought transition from 'sprayed/streamed' liquids to 'launched'. Sticking these in balloons, canisters, barrels, mines, etc really increases the variability. I could see some nice visual effects along with these as well.

602
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Team Stacking - Match Balance
« on: October 26, 2013, 06:03:05 pm »
I think Bubbles addressed all the issues very well, and the solution is a simple and effective one. Basically giving the community more tools to police itself and address issues of stacking as they arise. Whether they choose to do so or not is completely up to them, as it has always been. Not entirely perfect, but for the state of the game I think it's the best choice, especially with Co-Op/Adeventure Mode on the horizon.


And again, I have never been trying to vilify anyone. I know the competitive teams may feel attacked due to claims of team stacking, and some of those people might strike back and say it's the fault of the newer players challenging them. We have to understand that it is a thing that exists and happens, not entirely from the intentions of either party. I'm not aware of any clan that forms a team and starts a lobby with the straight up intention of pub stomping. But as lobbies exist and players form bonds, things will start to tilt in favor of one team over another.


Feel free to stop reading at this point.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even with  this issue being resolved, I feel it necessary to post some of the information I gathered. Because frankly it took a lot of time. A lot of time. Too much time. D; (Only managed to get fraction of it done).

First we start off with the design of the survey. The objective was to gather data on matches and look into cases of team stacking and leave rates. This was done by taking a sample every five minutes of currently in progress matches. (You can't have a stacked match if it's not started). This did not include the novice matches (as they cannot be stacked) and was limited to 2v2 matches for simplicity.

Now we have to consider what -is- a stacked match? This definition can vary from person to person. Generally speaking it tends to be a team that sticks together and repeatedly wins by a high margin against opponents that change often (pub stomping). Some might say that it's players of a higher rank, while others would argue that only clanned teams count as stacked. To try and stay as objective as possible, we stuck only with 'rank'. This is not an ideal measure of player skill, but it's a good estimation. Then I set the bar to '40%'. If the difference between the teams weighted average ranks is 40% greater than the avg rank of the lower team, it counts as 'stacked'.

Why 40% and not just some flat number? Because of how leveling and ranks work. Each time you achieve a rank, you have to work much harder to reach the next one. And the more you play, the less difference there is in skill level (So a rank 1 and 2 might be very different in skill, but a 5 and 6 would be pretty close). The average ranks of each team was weighted so that the captain/pilot counted as more of the average. (Put a lvl 13 captain with a lvl 1 crew vs a lvl 1 captain with a lvl 13 crew; assuming they let the lvl 1 actually pilot the ship, the lvl 13 captain is far more likely to win).


Now onto the actual data. Tracking games for 2 hours and 40 minutes, and taking a sample every 5 minutes we come up with this chart:


This is a bar chart showing the weighted ratios of the teams. (HighTeamWeightedAvg/LowTeamWeightedAvg). Anything above 0.4 (40%) is considered stacked. As you can see, this amount fluctuates wildly in both the amount of matches occurring at the same time, and the ratios.

The greatest difference in rank was in this match:



Where you can see that even with the AI dragging down the average (AI's count as rank 0), this team is still much much higher than the opposition. Interestingly, this was not an organized pre-formed team.

Then we have this example of a perfectly balanced team. You'll notice these players cover a wide range of ranks:



And this is my personal favorite, the % of stacked matches occurring at any time:



You add up the number of 'stacked' matches and divide by the total number. Sometimes this goes down to 0, and sometimes all the matches are stacked.


Now obviously we may not all agree to that definition of a stacked team. 40% may be a bit low. Also remember that this is only an isolated example. We'd have to look at the game over a much longer period to get something that better represents the overall state. That's a lot of time for me to sit around and take screen shots of matches every 5 minutes, and with Muse having plans of their own; I won't bother.

603
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Team Stacking - Match Balance
« on: October 26, 2013, 12:37:13 am »
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2649.0.html (Match Sorting/Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2570.0.html (Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2188.0.html (Match Balance/Ranking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1902.0.html (Match Balance/Ranking/Matchmaking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1806.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1674.0.html (Level Sorting/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1497.0.html (Level Sorting/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1295.0.html (Matchmaking/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1244.0.html (Queue/Matchmaking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,379.0.html (Pub Stomping/Teaching New Players)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,418.0.html (Level Sorting)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,491.0.html (Matchmaking/Ranking/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,225.0.html (Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2389.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2227.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2325.0.html (Level Sorting)

and many, many more. I didn't bother to include examples of threads about players leaving during a match (do to unfair teams) either; or even dig up threads from the old forums. The fact that the issue continually pops up over and over again should be a pretty glaring red flag. Being aware of the issue doesn't make it go away.


There is no magic fix anymore than there is a single perfect solution.


At this point we're left with a few options. If you don't think this is a problem, don't believe there can be a solution to it, or simply don't want it to be solved; thank you. Your opinion has been noted, and you do not need to reject any suggestion to the latter with one of those reasons. (Please feel free to use constructive reasons, ie: Isn't fair for all levels, would split up the population too small, I don't want to be labeled with a rank, that method wouldn't let me play with my friends, etc).



On the other hand, if you find that this is a problem and wish to continue a productive discussion about the possibilities, we'd love to hear it. We may not be able to find a good solution, but we love the community and game enough to try.



604
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Team Stacking - Match Balance
« on: October 25, 2013, 09:52:12 pm »
-snip-
Aside from what NoWuffo said, the best solution I can come up with is take a deep breath, break into your patients reserve, and teach. Today's new player is tomorrow's veteran. Do what you can to speed that process xD

-snip-
And when the game does begin and the stacked team completely obliterates the other team, well no one is going to stay and they'll have to wait 15 more minutes lol

My biggest concern is this. I couldn't give two shakes and twirl about unbalanced matches if people enjoy playing them, or at the very least bear with them. It's just something that happens. But if this is what's causing new players to not stick around, then it's an issue. Again, I direct your attention to this graph:

http://steamcharts.com/app/209080#6m



Where you can see the obvious spikes (corresponding to sales) and falls of the playerbase. While a rapid influx is nice, more or less all of those new players seem to drop out of the game shortly after. One reason for this is the pubstomping (intentional or not). We all know that players can get a little ragey after such an event, especially new and unexperienced players. While it may or may not be the biggest cause of not keeping new players around, it's one of the most obvious, and something we can fix.

Like Garou and others pointed out, a very nice solution would be for all the vets to put on their big kid pants and help these newer players out. And as others still have pointed out, that's not going to happen. Not because some of us don't want to help, but because not everyone is willing to go to these lengths. Most people are here to play a game and have fun, not babysit and do community service; and we have to respect that. Which is why we're looking at alternate solutions.

I respect and support Muse's decision to not segregate the players, but there are other ways of doing it.

605
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« on: October 25, 2013, 09:01:42 pm »
I don't think the point of balancing should be to show that 2engy-1gunner is as good as 3engies. That alone shows classes arent really balanced and it restricts the amount of variety in class combos.

The real balance is showing that 2gunners-1engy is as good as 2engy-1gunner.

I'd agree with the first part, but not the second. 2 eng-1gun being just as good as 3 eng shows a bit of an issue (the part I agree with), where I'd say that a more balanced bit would be 2 eng-1 gun being better than 3 eng at the very least.


Anyway, like I was told, Muse is planning some changes in the near to distant future. No idea what those will be, but Muse knows best; and I trust them to make a good call.

606
The Lounge / Re: PSN and Dark Souls 2
« on: October 25, 2013, 08:19:06 pm »
D; Want PC copy!

Massive fan of dark souls. If anyone hasn't played it, you really should. The PC port is essentially that, just a port; so I'd highly recommend getting a controller to use if you go that route. Otherwise you'll be filled with frustration trying to get the mouse/keyboard working.

607
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Freezing damage
« on: October 25, 2013, 06:47:43 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09XB9nMDRl8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DIdBynzl8Q

Here's some videos of kids playing with 'gas duster' (sometimes called 'canned air'). You can pick this stuff up in the store, spray it at stuff, and rapidly drop the temperature of it. I don't believe the OP ever mentioned a freeze ray, but they did bring up liquid nitrogen which is totally plausible. What the effects of that could be on an airship are left up to the imagination.

For some realism to draw on, picture the altitude at which the ships fly, and seeing them made from wood and cloth. There's a lot of water up there in the atmosphere (look at planes and such; not the mention all the coulds). Freezing water causes it to expand, which can rapidly damage both the wood, cloth, and even metal bits (metal contracts in cold) if there's moisture between the cracks, crevices, and such. This can then also affect the machinery in a negative way.


Here's what I could find about liquid nitrogen being sprayed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTa0lHTV2A4

(Not super impressive, but still interesting)

608
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« on: October 25, 2013, 04:43:11 pm »
*Four different teams. In the finals of a tournament. Time doesn't make a huge difference, as the game hasn't had any drastic changes (obviously we have new ships and maps, but the mechanics still work the same).


Here's some "Flotsam Dynasty"
http://www.twitch.tv/gunsoficarus/b/450831705

4/7 of the teams didn't bring a single gunner.

Here's some more Cogs (S2, week 2)
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/433399131

4.5/7 teams didn't use a gunner. (One team had 1 gunner on ship, and 0 on the other)


I'm trying to find more recent tournaments, but it's not easy. You'll notice that these matches have some galleons without gunners as well.

Essentially the idea is that when high ranking teams (lots and lots of experience and practice) choose not to bring a gunner to some of the most important and difficult matches, you have to question how useful a gunner really is compared to an engineer in that last slot. You might argue back that "Hey, some of those ships do use gunners!", but if gunners can easily be replaced by engineers with almost no difference in performance at high competitive levels, and engineers -cannot- be replaced, what does that say about the gunner's overall usefulness?


Of course gunners still have their place and are great on certain builds and playstyles, but for the most part they're just as good as having a third engineer, and sometimes less so.

609
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« on: October 25, 2013, 03:20:24 pm »


Personally I think that says more about the debate than anything else. That's a screen taken from past videos of the Cogs Tournament Finals. Meaning that these are high skill teams going for the gold. You'll notice that most of them opt out of taking a gunner. To put it another way, when it comes down to getting every advantage you can for the best chance of victory, they chose to get rid of the gunner.

Gunning does have some advantages over being an engineer, there's no doubt about it. But those advantages are minimal at best. And when you weigh the pros and cons of that last slot being an engineer or gunner, competitive teams often go with engineer.

So why do other people still require a gunner on their team? Maybe they feel they should have one just in case, or maybe it's just to help define the roles on the ship. Usually they just like having a gunner, as most of the time they'll be using one particular ammo type, switching to the other types relatively infrequently. Of course it all really comes down the ships and guns being used.


Either way, Muse seems to have plans in the works to address this.

610
General Discussion / Re: No love from MUSE on these Boards?
« on: October 25, 2013, 03:00:09 pm »
I meant your proposed solution was a winner (A good solution), and you made some good points backing it up.

Now we just need a volunteer.


611
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« on: October 25, 2013, 11:09:36 am »
After emailing them some suggestions, Muse took the time to respond (one of the reasons we love them so much). Part of the response was this:

"We have ideas for the gunner and engineer debate, which has always been hotly debated, but we are not ready to push the changes due to their complexity.  They're going to be new mechanics so we need to test them thoroughly."
-Muse



612
I'd try to stick with novice matches as best you're able. They force you to use some viable options. The Pyra is a bit easier, since you just have to blow them up, and the weapon loadout makes that pretty easy. You can still do it with the goldfish, but that requires a little more finesse on the pilot's part. Pivoting the ship to shoot the side guns at times. You can always use kerosene and get very rammy with these ships as well.

On a carronade goldfish, you generally want to stay out of their gun arcs and just take out their balloon repeatedly. It's not that hard to maneuver into their blind spot as they're sinking, but you have to be careful when following them down (the carronade doesn't aim down very well). Usually as they near the ground I switch to a flamethrower or something explosive, since those guns have a large turning radius. You can easily stay above them while doing damage, often keeping them pinned there with the flamer.

A hwacha goldfish is pretty popular, but takes a bit more planning. You can't afford to miss shots, since that reload is so long. Fire a barrage and disable their ship up close (or mid range if you have a good gunner) and attempt to get into their blind spot, using your side guns while the hwacha is reloading. The gat is especially useful for taking out their armor. Once the  armor goes down, turn back to the now reloaded hwacha and finish them.


If you don't feel like playing in novice matches, I'd still recommend a pyra or goldfish ships. They're by far the easiest for players to get used to. Communication goes a long way as well.

Squid is tricky with it's speed and general fragility; galleon is massive and hard to control (and a very easy target) and harder to organize your crew; junker is another easy-ish ship, but with the guns on the sides of the ship, your gunners have to compensate for your ship movement as well, and can be difficult to hit targets for newer gunners; spire is a great gun ship, but also really fragile and difficult to control; and finally the mobula is another great gun ship, but you have massive blindspots and need the most crew coordination.

613
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Freezing damage
« on: October 25, 2013, 01:50:10 am »
Hmmm... I think it's interesting, but it doesn't add much to gameplay; since it seems to be an alternate for fire. I could see something similar, like a coolant or large scale extinguisher being used a support weapon, extinguishing your allies and giving them some fire protection. But for straight up freezing, maybe it just reduces components effectiveness without doing actual damage? Making guns turn and fire slower, engines have a reduced output, your balloon doesn't rise or fall as effectively, maybe the hull takes a small boost to damage taken (or even builds up a small amount of extra armor as a balance?).

But just doing damage and stacking like fire feels redundant. I mean you could certainly put some strategy into it, maybe having one flamer and one freezing weapon on your team, forcing the enemy team to try and carry both repair items to get rid of the stacks, reducing their effectiveness at putting out either. (ie: Right now they just have to deal with fire, if both engi's didn't bring a fire extinguisher, it'd take longer and be harder to put out all the fires.) I'd want to pretend that those two stacks would counteract each other, so you can't have a frozen and burning component, making your have to plan which weapons you want to use more carefully.

614
General Discussion / Re: Question for Pilots
« on: October 25, 2013, 01:42:00 am »
Really depends on my crew. Generally I'll go with Goldfish-Pyra-Spire-Galleon-Squid-Junker-Mobula. My favorite by far is the Galleon, you just point the sides at the enemy and shout 'Left' or 'Right' at your crew and they make the enemy stop being. If I'm with newer players, I'll go with one of the first three ships for simplicity. Not sure why I don't use the junker or mobula as often, they're just not my favorites.

615
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Tutor/Pupil system
« on: October 24, 2013, 05:03:15 pm »
Yeah, I was just looking at the 'get X pupils to rank 5'. Some achievement junkies might try to gather up as many low ranks as they can, and then just let them be while they wait for them to reach that rank.

I think the other achievement suggestions are spot on though.

I could see a "Play x  Matches with your pupil on Y ship" (for each ship), and even "Play as an engineer for your pupil as they pilot/captain" (so players teach them how to pilot as well. Then some play on different maps, etc. Mostly things that require the tutor and pupil to be on the same ship, perhaps with some near the end being to play against your pupil.

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