Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Milevan Faent on March 08, 2014, 10:36:20 pm
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So I made a ship concept a while back that I abandoned due to realizing I couldn't edit the OP and I had written the description in such a way (and hadn't fleshed out the concept beforehand) that people had a lot of trouble understanding what I was trying to get across, and just kept saying the ship was a copy of the Mobula. I have since learned more of the game, and believe I can now get the concept across better. While I still won't be able to edit the post due to the illogical limitations placed on the forums by Muse, I can at least ask Mods to do it for me, even if I still feel that's really unfair to put the work on the mods like that. That all said, here's my revamped and expanded concept for the Zenith.
Statistics
I am going to start with a simplistic conceptual version of the stats for the ship, using a 1-5 scale based on the graphic used to display ship stats in the game when modifying a ship.
Speed 2.5 (vertical speed is above average, horizontal speed is just a bit below average)
Maneuverability 3.5 (horizontal acceleration is high, vertical acceleration is below average, turning speed is slightly above average, able to get really good altitude)
Durability 2
Armor 3.5
Firepower 4 (6 guns, but see below)
The ship is broken down into 2 levels, similar to the Mobula, but different. Engines and guns are semi-shielded by the hull from attacks to the sides (and front or back, depending on which level the component is on). Guns are angled either up or down depending on which level the gun is on. Upper guns are protected from the front of the ship, while lower guns are protected from the back.
Details
The ship is slightly narrow but long, similar to a skiff (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081015143710/starwars/images/b/ba/Skiff_schem.jpg) in shape. The front of the ship is where the primary ladder down to the lower deck is. The lower deck extends slightly beyond the upper deck, with places near the lower side guns where it is possible to "parkour" up and down to get between decks, although it is tricky. The rear of the top deck has a raised section (like in the picture). The section near the balloon also has "parkour holes", allowing a view straight through the ship to the bottom from the angle where the wheel for the captain sits due to the area around the Medium gun being mostly open.
The top deck has 3 light guns angled 30 degrees up and pointing to the rear, with the "side" guns pointing to the rear at a 30 degree angle to either side. Located at the middle of the top deck is the balloon, with the main engine located dead center to the rear. The pilot wheel is located on the raised section at the rear, with the main engine underneath the raised section. On the rear of the raised section is the rear middle gun, with the side rear guns to either side on the lower section.
The lower deck has 2 light guns and 1 medium gun. The Medium gun is angled straight down (and to the front if it matters), and near the front of the ship. The two light guns are located off to either side of the main section of the lower deck, but angled 45 degrees down and 20 degrees to either side from the front. Along the rest of the lower deck is the Hull compotent location, and to either side is the side engines (located near the "parkour" entrance to the lower deck). Due to their positions, the hull partially covers the guns from attacks from the sides and behind.
In theory this ship has no blind spots, since there are guns that can hit you no matter what side you approach from. However, due to the angles the guns are at, there are blind spots foward and above, as well as behind and below the ship. Immediately to either side may or may not put you in the firing arc of two of the side guns (one top, and one bottom), while forward and below will definitely put you in the firing arc of 2 guns, and 3 guns if you approach from above and behind. Obviously getting immediately below the ship is a death sentence, as there the medium gun can actually hit you.
Update as of 3/13/14
This is a remake of a remake of a ship concept now. Originally designed this as a bomber, but now I'm changing to a concept yet again. So here it is, the Zenith Mark II
Statistics
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj104/Adran06/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png) (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/Adran06/media/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png.html)
The ship is broken down into 2 levels, similar to the Mobula, but there the differences end. To start, lets give an overview of the layout.
Details
The ship is slightly narrow but long, similar to a skiff (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081015143710/starwars/images/b/ba/Skiff_schem.jpg) in shape. The front of the ship is where the primary ladder down to the lower deck is. The rear of the top deck has a raised section (like in the picture). The section near the balloon also has a massive hole, allowing a view straight through the ship to the bottom from the angle where the wheel for the captain sits due to the area around the Medium gun being mostly open. The balloon is attached via cables to the sides of the ship at the front (like a sail), with the space immediately below it empty, allowing a clear view from the front of the ship to behind the ship.
The top deck has 3 light guns located at the rear of the ship. Located at the front of the top deck is the balloon, with the main engine located dead center to the rear, behind the raised section and partially covered by it. The pilot wheel is located on top of the raised section at the rear. On the rear of the raised section is the rear middle gun, with the side rear guns to either side on the lower section. All three guns point to the rear. Just before the stairs that lead up to the raised section, and the edge of the hole in the deck, is the ladder leading between the decks.
The lower deck has 2 light guns and 1 medium gun. The medium gun points foward. The two light guns are located off to either side of the main section of the lower deck, pointing to their respective sides. Along the rest of the lower deck is the Hull compotent location which is located right next to the ladder, and to either side is the side engines. The rear guns would be to either side of the side engines if they were on the same deck.
In theory this ship has no blind spots, since there are guns that can hit you no matter what side you approach from. However, due to the locations the guns are at, the lower deck guns cannot fire up very easily due to the deck being in the way, while the upper deck guns likewise cannot fire down very easily, and have limited firing arcs due to the hull also being in the way. But here's the twist.
Located next to every gun is an interactable button. By stepping on the button, the gun that corresponds with that button will switch decks and positions as follows:
Middle rear gun (pilot's gun): lower deck facing foward, able to fire through the holes in the deck normally used by the other guns and various empty spaces.
Left and Right upper deck guns: lower deck pointing to either side with same setup as the forward side guns.
Medium gun: upper deck facing back toward the ship (the balloon is directly behind it). It has a clear shot in all directions up.
Left and Right lower deck guns: upper deck pointing forward, limited clearance to the sides due to the hull.
If a player is on a gun that has the button pushed, the gun will move the person using the gun with it. As a possible fix to stop trolls, moving a gun with a gunner in it might require the gunner to right click to confirm the move.
The above is merely a first rough draft. Suggestions on positions for the guns are welcome. I am likely to reduce the number of guns available as well. The end goal is to either make it so it is only possible to cover 3 sides of the ship at any one time, or make it so it is only possible to EFFECIENTLY cover 2-3 sides at a time (this option would require making it possible to get 2 guns pointed to any particular side, while requiring at least 1, maybe as many as 2 different sides only having 1 gun covering it, while perhaps also still having the possibility of no guns covering a side).
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While a description is great and all, a rough sketch or layout of some kind, based on the picture provided would do wonders, rather then a comparison of where certain objects are and where they lead. Also I would recommend you use the stats system provided by this table:
Ship Stats
| Ship | Armor | Health | Speed (m/s) | Acceleration (m/s2) | Turn Speed (degrees/s) | Turn Accel. (degrees/s2) | Vertical Speed (m/s) | Vertical Accel. (m/s2) | Mass (tonnes) |
| Goldfish | 400 | 1100 | 40.11 | 3.5 | 13.99 | 7.99 | 16.99 | 3.25 | 150 |
| Junker | 700 | 500 | 26.01 | 4.3 | 16.18 | 15.24 | 17.06 | 3.00 | 125 |
| Squid | 230 | 850 | 47.00 | 5.50 | 18.95 | 20.00 | 17.00 | 4.00 | 115 |
| Pyramidion | 650 | 700 | 32.00 | 2.50 | 11.00 | 6.25 | 16.97 | 2.75 | 200 |
| Galleon | 800 | 1400 | 30.02 | 2.10 | 8.02 | 5.06 | 17.01 | 2.25 | 320 |
| Spire | 400 | 750 | 25.99 | 3.00 | 11.99 | 15.02 | 17.00 | 3.75 | 150 |
| Mobula | 600 | 700 | 28.00 | 4.25 | 14.02 | 3.5 | 17.01 | 7.5 | 120 |
(Credit to Thomas for the table)
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While a description is great and all, a rough sketch or layout of some kind, based on the picture provided would do wonders, rather then a comparison of where certain objects are and where they lead. Also I would recommend you use the stats system provided by this table:
Ship Stats
| Ship | Armor | Health | Speed (m/s) | Acceleration (m/s2) | Turn Speed (degrees/s) | Turn Accel. (degrees/s2) | Vertical Speed (m/s) | Vertical Accel. (m/s2) | Mass (tonnes) |
| Goldfish | 400 | 1100 | 40.11 | 3.5 | 13.99 | 7.99 | 16.99 | 3.25 | 150 |
| Junker | 700 | 500 | 26.01 | 4.3 | 16.18 | 15.24 | 17.06 | 3.00 | 125 |
| Squid | 230 | 850 | 47.00 | 5.50 | 18.95 | 20.00 | 17.00 | 4.00 | 115 |
| Pyramidion | 650 | 700 | 32.00 | 2.50 | 11.00 | 6.25 | 16.97 | 2.75 | 200 |
| Galleon | 800 | 1400 | 30.02 | 2.10 | 8.02 | 5.06 | 17.01 | 2.25 | 320 |
| Spire | 400 | 750 | 25.99 | 3.00 | 11.99 | 15.02 | 17.00 | 3.75 | 150 |
| Mobula | 600 | 700 | 28.00 | 4.25 | 14.02 | 3.5 | 17.01 | 7.5 | 120 |
(Credit to Thomas for the table)
I lack any talent at art, so I certainly can't sketch out the layout myself. As for the stats using details, I don't know what they would be, or I would have. I typed up a rough estimate to give a generalized comparison for the moment because I don't know how good any particular trait would be myself. That kind of detail requires testing, or a lot more time than I have put into this so far. It also now requires a Mod, as I can't edit the OP and putting it in any other post just spreads out information, which causes problems later. I do intend to ask a friend of mine who IS an artist to take the picture and make a sketch, but that will be something that won't be done for a while yet, assuming she even says yes.
That said, I will attempt to work out some numbers. I won't ask a mod to put it up though until I have more to add than just some theory-crafted stats that are untested and potentially unbalanced.
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I'm not even familiar with the firepower stat, not something I pay attention to. However you don't need a mod to keep posting, this is an idea and we can build on it down the line, also I'm a stickler for diagrams for these sort of things so pay little attention to that, though it can certainly help in developing your design, essentially what you're suggesting however, is a mobula with closer to average (in relation to what however?) speed and acceleration, and you don't need to consistently edit the OP to edit the idea, if they read the thread they should see what has been discussed, if they don't just quote the relevant change and leave it at that.
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I'm not even familiar with the firepower stat, not something I pay attention to. However you don't need a mod to keep posting, this is an idea and we can build on it down the line, also I'm a stickler for diagrams for these sort of things so pay little attention to that, though it can certainly help in developing your design, essentially what you're suggesting however, is a mobula with closer to average (in relation to what however?) speed and acceleration, and you don't need to consistently edit the OP to edit the idea, if they read the thread they should see what has been discussed, if they don't just quote the relevant change and leave it at that.
The stats are all seen every time a ship is edited. I just counted the number of pentagons each part of the graph touched. The outer pentagon is 5, and not even getting to the first pentagon is 1 (thus a Galleon has a Firepower of 5 for example, while a Junker has a firepower just short of 4). Even then, the numbers are just there to give a rough comparison to other ships, and have no real impact on anything.
As for not needing a mod to keep posting, this is true. But I never read an entire thread unless its short, and I don't expect too many others do either. Most people that I'm familiar with just read the OP, maybe glance over a few other posts, then post their own stuff. I hate having to read through an entire thread just for one piece of information, and on a similar note I'd hate to have to requote things 20 times just because people aren't reading everything and the info is hidden on page 2 of a 6 page discussion. I'd rather just keep all important info in the OP to avoid all the problems, which is why I hate that I can't just edit my posts. This is the only forum I visit that even has this problem.
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So, this is a placeholder, since I did spend the time to write up some example stats. I will have this post deleted and the information moved to the OP at a later time when I have more info to put in the OP. Also, I have NO ability to understand how the heck the Table thing works, so I'm not even going to try. If anyone who DOES understand that mass of confusion wants, feel free to add this to a completed version of the table posted up there^
Zenith
Armor 600
Health 800
Speed 30
Acceleration 4.5 (new second highest)
Turn Speed 14
Turn Accel 11
Vertical Speed 17.03 (new second highest)
Vertical Accel 2.95
Mass 130
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Green = highest, Blue = 2nd highest. Red = lowest, Orange = 2nd lowest. Grey is in-between those.
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Green = highest, Blue = 2nd highest. Red = lowest, Orange = 2nd lowest. Grey is in-between those.
I know that. I meant I don't get how the tags of the table function work.
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Ah.
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@Pie: there is no way goldfish is that fast, becouse otherwise it would have no problem escaping Pyra, and ti does have problems escaping pyra (original Prya max Speed was listed as 30,5m/s and Goldfish 32m/s - witch is what the difirence in speed actual feels: negligable).
@Milevan: ship needs blind spont no matter how small (junker has the tiniest blind spot but it still has one).
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@Pie: there is no way goldfish is that fast, becouse otherwise it would have no problem escaping Pyra, and ti does have problems escaping pyra (original Prya max Speed was listed as 30,5m/s and Goldfish 32m/s - witch is what the difirence in speed actual feels: negligable).
Looking at the stats in the game, the Goldfish has to be that fast. Pyra should have no chance of catching a Goldfish.... if it does, then something is wrong with the stats, or the pilot. Possibly a Kero on the Pyra could let it catch a Goldfish, but a Goldfish can do that too and completely leave a Pyra in the dust. That said, can you comment on the actual ship concept?
EDIT: and there is a blind spot, as I said in the OP: above and in front or below and behind. Even to the sides if you get close or the guns don't have good horizontal arcs, and even then it requires people to be on top and bottom deck at the same time to hit something to the sides, so really the sides are generally a blind spot too, but with situational setups that can help compensate for the complete lack of actual broadside weapons on the ship.
Also, while the ship has limited ability to fire directly forward or behind, as it favors attacking from below or above (often at an angle, but still above or below).
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Pyra has no problem keeping up with Goldfsh - Goldfish could eventualy escape, but generaly you don't want to turn your cak on prya's front unless you are a squid. It takes way longer than the stated speed difirence indicates for goldfish to get out of Pyra's gat range.
You seem to have started writting before I edited my post.
Gun mounts at least thus far can't be angled upwards or downwards.
Ship also needs to have a blind spot (in horisontal arc anyway, there are allways going to be directly above and directly below.
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Pyra has no problem keeping up with Goldfsh - Goldfish could eventualy escape, but generaly you don't want to turn your cak on prya's front unless you are a squid. It takes way longer than the stated speed difirence indicates for goldfish to get out of Pyra's gat range.
You seem to have started writting before I edited my post.
Gun mounts at least thus far can be angle upwards or downwards.
Ship also needs to have a blind spot (in horisontal arc anyway, there are allways going to be directly above and directly below.
Yeah, I started writing before you finished editing, then edited in a response to your edited in response XD
That said, with the setup of the guns, looking at all the weapons in the game, and taking into consideration the positions of the guns, Flare, Harpoon, Carronade, Gatling, Flamer, Artemis, Flak, and Banshee can cover anything that doesn't get too close. If you get your ship right next to the Zenith though, the guns can't possibly angle to hit it, aside from maybe the Flare, Artemis, and other really high horizontal arcing weapons, and even then only from top or bottom, never both. That's not really too big a threat when all the heavy-hitting weapons you might put on a Zenith can't possibly hit anything from the side. I generally consider the sides to both be more blind-spots than anything. Even among the weapons that could be used for their horizontal arc, you also need to consider if their vertical arc is enough to be able to get them to aim at a ship on the same altitude as the Zenith. Most weapons will have a problem there too.
That said, you seem to be misunderstanding something. All the weapons on the ship are naturally angled up or down, thus giving the ship a natural advantage for vertical combat, but a disadvantage at horizontal combat. That changes how the blindspots work as well. Weapons like the Hades that have good vertical arcs in both directions are really good since they can angle for attacks pretty much anywhere, but they have limited horizontal arcs, limiting them to firing in a rather narrow cone horizontally speaking. They will never fire sideways enough to cover that blind-spot. An Artemis could fire far enough to the side to cover it a bit, especially if the target isn't right next to the ship, but if it's on the lower deck, it's not going to aim high enough to really hit anything to the side, and aiming down from the top deckit can only get things just a bit below level with the ship itself. Conversely, that same Artemis on the bottom of the ship can actually pummel anything that gets below it relatively easily, far easier than a normal Artemis. This makes the blindspot dependant on the weapon setup, but generally there is no way to cover every side of the ship.
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I seem to have made an important typo in previous post. Gun mounts can't be turned to fire more up or down, as far as I understand the system. I might be wrong or it may change, but keep it in mind. Itf it can be do so it might be cool.
Can you try to make a layout - a very simplistic one if you have to? It would help understandin where important components (like hull armor, baloon, engines, guns) are.
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I seem to have made an important typo in previous post. Gun mounts can't be turned to fire more up or down, as far as I understand the system. I might be wrong or it may change, but keep it in mind. Itf it can be do so it might be cool.
Can you try to make a layout - a very simplistic one if you have to? It would help understandin where important components (like hull armor, baloon, engines, guns) are.
I've been working on finding someone who can draw my concept, but no luck so far. And a major part of my concept is intentionally changing the gun mounts to actually be angled up or down (depending on which deck they're on). It doesn't actually make a gun fire with a bigger arc than normal, it just changes the default angle of the gun. For instance, an Artemis on the upper deck right gun from the wheel can (treating level with the deck as 0 degrees) fire between 40 degrees up, and 5 degrees down. Since the gun is also at 30 degrees to one side, it can aim out to 95 degrees right (treating 0 degrees as straight behind the ship) and 35 degrees left, which is enough to fire straight to the side, but not toward the front of the ship at all. Looking at these numbers, the gun's arc is the same, it just covers a different area than it normally would (which is noramlly mostly below the ship, and with a wide arc to cover front, side, or back, depending on where the gun is mounted. This covers more diagonally back and up than anything.
Nothing really prevents Muse from making a ship that is like this, and I think the concept is interesting enough that I wanted to share it, which is why I made the Zenith.
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(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj104/Adran06/ShipComparison.png) (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/Adran06/media/ShipComparison.png.html)
This is how I cheat, since this forum's table system is too complicated to mess with.
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And a major part of my concept is intentionally changing the gun mounts to actually be angled up or down (depending on which deck they're on). It doesn't actually make a gun fire with a bigger arc than normal, it just changes the default angle of the gun. For instance, an Artemis on the upper deck right gun from the wheel can (treating level with the deck as 0 degrees) fire between 40 degrees up, and 5 degrees down. Since the gun is also at 30 degrees to one side, it can aim out to 95 degrees right (treating 0 degrees as straight behind the ship) and 35 degrees left, which is enough to fire straight to the side, but not toward the front of the ship at all. Looking at these numbers, the gun's arc is the same, it just covers a different area than it normally would (which is noramlly mostly below the ship, and with a wide arc to cover front, side, or back, depending on where the gun is mounted. This covers more diagonally back and up than anything.
Nothing really prevents Muse from making a ship that is like this, and I think the concept is interesting enough that I wanted to share it, which is why I made the Zenith.
I think we all understand the idea you are presenting regarding guns. The thing is that since no other gun in the game is mounted like this, there is no indication that Muse has an easy way to do so at this time.
Having ships where the weapon mounts angle up or down would make for some interesting play on height, so not all engagements have to happen with both ships at nearly the same height. But the game would have to support such a feature. Theoretically it wouldn't be too hard, but coding can sometimes surprise you in certain situations and just kinda slap you and say "nope. that won't actually work. you are a bad person and you should feel bad".
I do like the creative thinking though.
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So, I'm considering changing the stats I've posted so far for the Zenith from 600 Armor/800 Health to 680 Armor and 750 Health (the ship is suppose to be more about the armor than the health), but as I can't really test the ship out, I have no idea how viable it is with the current numbers, and don't know if this would be a buff or a nerf. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it would bring the numbers more in line with the original stats concept I posted in the OP.
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I think my biggest problem with this ship is that despite it being creative, you are trying too hard for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the heavy weapon points straight down, right? This means you can basically only hit someone if you are directly above them. If you are directly above someone, with your pilot shadowing them, your gunner is going to hit every shot. That would be easier to shoot than the front gun of a goldfish.
So in situations where you get directly above an enemy, your ship is absurdly over powered. That heavy weapon will have a field day against ships that don't have that same mechanic and can't shoot back up at you.
If you fail to get above somebody, which any experienced pilot will refuse to let you get above them, your ship is so underpowered it is laughable. Those 2 light front guns? good luck getting them to hit something at your height with any appreciable firepower.
Your best firepower is your back side when an enemy is matching heights with you.
Your back side is essentially 3/5 of a mobula, without a balloon helping guard your armor from piercing, and with all your engines sitting pretty and exposed. So when your engines are shot out and you can't turn, your firepower is gone. Firepower that really wouldn't help much anyway. Those guns will really only help you if they are close range guns. Putting sniping guns on those back 3 slots... I just can't think of a combo that would work.
I like the creativity. I really do. But it all seems very forced to me. You are forcing the guns to be in this configuration because you want to make it interesting. But it just doesn't pan out to me.
But maybe I am crazy and wrong. I just want to point out what I see to be major flaws so if you agree you can fix them. The biggest of those being that you have one way, and one way only, to fly this ship.
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I hadn't thought of some of that, so the feedback is appreciated. One thing that was part of the concept since I started was to make it a sort of "bomber" ship, though I may have over-specialized it. I'm open to ideas for improving the concept while trying to maintain the feel of a vertical combat ship niche. Really, with so few ships in the game, every ship tends to have a niche feel to it. Most often, I pick my ship based on the map, rather than my being any good with it. Like on any open map, I'll take my Mobula and snipe the hell out of everyone, or Spire if I don't have a full or competent crew, while on more confined maps its Goldfish or Squid. I don't even really think of using a Junker or Galleon, and I don't really like how Pyramidions fly.
Also, as to the 3/5ths of a Mobula, I'd like to point out a Mobula really only ever has 3 guns anyway. 90% of the time, I tell my crew to just ignore the 2 guns on the far sides, and only use them when I'm not on the wheel using one myself. I wasn't too sure what to do with the guns, so a lot of that part was made up as I was writing it, rather than thought out beforehand as was the case with the core concept and shape of the ship. Help improving that part is always appreciated.
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Playing with the vertical angle of a weapon mounting is interesting, but the flaw there is that weapons are balanced around specifically that mounting angle. If you could point a carronade down, it suddenly becomes OP since you can sit above someone and shoot out their balloon with no threat of ever being in their arcs.
I am more interested in the no blind spot idea, although I would do it differently.
The idea I was imagining is a ship where your firing arcs depend heavily on how you control it.
Take a weapon mounting on the tip of a ship. It normally points forward. However, the gunner can get off the gun and engage a mechanism next to it to manually turn the gun to completely alter its firing arcs.
You tie up a person and can't fire while doing so, so doing it midfight to maintain arcs might not be the best idea (unless you could keep firing while someone else turned the mount). But it would let you customize for an engagement before the shooting started.
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Playing with the vertical angle of a weapon mounting is interesting, but the flaw there is that weapons are balanced around specifically that mounting angle. If you could point a carronade down, it suddenly becomes OP since you can sit above someone and shoot out their balloon with no threat of ever being in their arcs.
I am more interested in the no blind spot idea, although I would do it differently.
The idea I was imagining is a ship where your firing arcs depend heavily on how you control it.
Take a weapon mounting on the tip of a ship. It normally points forward. However, the gunner can get off the gun and engage a mechanism next to it to manually turn the gun to completely alter its firing arcs.
You tie up a person and can't fire while doing so, so doing it midfight to maintain arcs might not be the best idea (unless you could keep firing while someone else turned the mount). But it would let you customize for an engagement before the shooting started.
Hmm... Rotating weapon mounts? Well, color me intrigued. It's certainly different. I still prefer my bomber concept, but as an alternative, this is certainly a possibility. Perhaps to simplify it, rather than letting it rotate to any position, a toggle system? Hell, could even go as far as letting the position of the guns toggle between the top and bottom decks, a concept I used in the original Zenith, though I never thought of the idea of an external button to use it. I originally had it based on the height of the ship itself, and if it was moving vertically.
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Modified OP with updated concepts at request. Please see OP for changes.
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Now we have several more problems.
The first being that your shots do not collide with your ship. Grab one of the front guns on a pyramidion and aim up at the beak. If you shoot, your shots pass through the beak.
This means that limiting the behavior and arcs of your guns based on what level they are on doesn't actually limit anything but sight lines.
In this way your button to swap gun slots instantly changes the configuration of your ship to handle an enemy coming from anywhere. This is pretty absurdly unfair.
My suggestion was to have a slow process by which a person could devote all of their value on the ship to turning their gun mount in a limited range. This would allow you to make each engagement unique as you alter your angles prior to each one. This makes you sacrifice the repairing/gunning power of a person to alter your arc, which means more risk/reward.
The other problem I see is that you have recreated a goldfish, just with better turning abilities and 3 light guns on the back of the ships that all point in the same direction?
Getting a trifecta in this game is something you have to work at in each ship to be able to do, if not downright impossible. Having such an easy trifecta would be absurdly OP.
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One of the most important aspects of a ship is the repair locations. The mobula should be the most powerful ship in the game with its easy quadfecta and the ability to kite, but the repair positions make it more of a glass cannon since the crew can not access the balloon, engines, and hull easily. Likewise the pyramiddion is one of the least well armed ships in the game, but is considered the premier brawling ship because it can be repaired so easily.
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The ship doesn't just magically change it's setup. It moves the guns like an elevator, so it takes time. While moving, the gun can't fire. That said, the hull of the ship not interfering with the guns is really stupid -_- It would be a natural balancing mechanic if, when you put a wide arc gun on a space with a lot of clutter around it, you get limited firing arcs. It would have made SENSE. Shooting through your own hull just annoys me as it breaks all sorts of natural laws.
That said, firing 3 guns at once will always mean you either can't repair, or can't fly. The 3 guns to the rear requires the enemy to be behind thet ship, and also means it will take a while for whoever is shooting to switch to the front guns to adapt if someone comes from a different direction. The Mobula can fire four guns in one direction easier and without moving everyone far away from the hull and balloon, which are both on the totally opposite end of the ship.
A few other things to consider: this ship is relatively fragile and slow, and has a relatively weak hull. It has decent armor, but as soon as that is taken out this ship can die very fast. If you manage to get to a position where it's not focusing it's guns, it could take upwards of 6-10 seconds for it to readjust to bring more guns to that spot, and the ship has below average turning capability so it can't just turn to fix it (or it will now at least ;p).
Lets use a few example setups to show the strengths and weaknesses of the ship. Using the default setup (3 back, 1 foward and to either side) the obvious first weakness is anything not chasing you is facing a Goldfish. A slow, hard to repair Goldfish. Anything that gets behind this ship will take a pounding. Anything that gets anywhere else will do the pounding.
1 back, 2 to either side, and 1 foward: forward and back fire power is obviously weak, but it's capable of broad-siding to either side just as well as a junker. Overall this one doesn't have as many weaknesses. The first that comes to mind is if anything gets behind it, the ship is obviously more vulnerable there now. Depending on which of the two centered guns is pointing forward, and which is pointing back, either side could be more or less dangerous. Obviously this setup means no one side has a great deal of focused firepower on it as it's more spread out. This setup also has no one near the balloon, so repairing the balloon could take longer, or make the hull vulnerable by drawing the main engineer away from it.
3 back, and 3 forward: this setup obviously has great forward and back fire power. While charging, you can fire with the medium guns and both the forward side guns and deal a lot of damage. And anything that gets to the side will probably kill you before you can counter it. Now, if you move the two back side guns to below deck so they fire to either side, that just creates a reversed super-Goldfish with 3 still relatively weak sides, and no medium weapon to make that third side still kinda dangerous. Also, switching to any of the other guns means not firing the three forward guns. The obvious advantage to this is all 3 on the guns are right next to the balloon, so it's easily fixed. The obvious downside is no one is near the hull. While it's easier to get to the hull from here, that then takes one of the guns out of the equation, weakening the firepower of the ship.
While this doesn't cover all of the possible (and likely) configurations, it does cover most of the ones I see as potentially problematic. While it IS technically possible to get 4 guns pointing forward or backward, firing 4 guns at once is generally not worth the downsides, and really you could just take the Mobula and get the same effect easier. Also, the 4th gun is always going to have things in the way of it seeing what it's aiming at in one direction (and assuming the actual hull of the ship stops guns, perhaps it can't even fire in those directions). I don't see this particular setup as an actual problem worth covering more though.
EDIT: I may consider removing the medium gun in favor of a light gun, but I haven't decided yet. I'll be considering the implications this change would have.
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That said, firing 3 guns at once will always mean you either can't repair, or can't fly. The 3 guns to the rear requires the enemy to be behind thet ship, and also means it will take a while for whoever is shooting to switch to the front guns to adapt if someone comes from a different direction. The Mobula can fire four guns in one direction easier and without moving everyone far away from the hull and balloon, which are both on the totally opposite end of the ship.
3 Mercury field guns on the back of your ship could fire on the same target at once. Instant hull break and significant chip damage. You don't have to worry about repairs. Noone would be able to get close to you.
Mobula's guns are angled apart. This makes a huge difference in firepower as getting 3 guns to arc together is harder than you think with those angles
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj104/Adran06/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png) (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/Adran06/media/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png.html)
A few other things to consider: this ship is relatively fragile and slow, and has a relatively weak hull. It has decent armor, but as soon as that is taken out this ship can die very fast. If you manage to get to a position where it's not focusing it's guns, it could take upwards of 6-10 seconds for it to readjust to bring more guns to that spot, and the ship has below average turning capability so it can't just turn to fix it (or it will now at least ;p).
Armor: your ship has more armor than a pyramidion, and is in 3rd place in the game falling in just behind junkers and galleons.
Permahull: Falls in behind galleon, goldfish, and squid. Tied with spire for 4th place.
Speed: Slower only than squid and goldfish at top speed.
Acceleration: Second only to the squid.
Turn speed: Basically equivalent to mobula and goldfish, only lagging behind squid and junker.
Turn acceleration: Significantly better than every ship (including golfish) except junker squid and spire.
Vertical speed: Essentially equivalent to all others.
Vertical Acceleration: Behind mobula, spire, squid, and goldfish. Tied with junker.
Mass: Lagging behind only the galleon and pyramidion.
I'm not sure how you are reading those stats, but this would be one of the faster, more maneuverable ships in the game, quite sturdy in regards to health and armor, and carrying nearly as much raw fire power as a galleon, just more easily focused on one point.
There is OP, and there is just flat out unfair. This falls in the unfair category.
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That said, firing 3 guns at once will always mean you either can't repair, or can't fly. The 3 guns to the rear requires the enemy to be behind thet ship, and also means it will take a while for whoever is shooting to switch to the front guns to adapt if someone comes from a different direction. The Mobula can fire four guns in one direction easier and without moving everyone far away from the hull and balloon, which are both on the totally opposite end of the ship.
3 Mercury field guns on the back of your ship could fire on the same target at once. Instant hull break and significant chip damage. You don't have to worry about repairs. Noone would be able to get close to you.
Mobula's guns are angled apart. This makes a huge difference in firepower as getting 3 guns to arc together is harder than you think with those angles
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj104/Adran06/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png) (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/Adran06/media/73e8180b-f69c-4633-8804-5450788b20c0.png.html)
A few other things to consider: this ship is relatively fragile and slow, and has a relatively weak hull. It has decent armor, but as soon as that is taken out this ship can die very fast. If you manage to get to a position where it's not focusing it's guns, it could take upwards of 6-10 seconds for it to readjust to bring more guns to that spot, and the ship has below average turning capability so it can't just turn to fix it (or it will now at least ;p).
Armor: your ship has more armor than a pyramidion, and is in 3rd place in the game falling in just behind junkers and galleons.
Permahull: Falls in behind galleon, goldfish, and squid. Tied with spire for 4th place.
Speed: Slower only than squid and goldfish at top speed.
Acceleration: Second only to the squid.
Turn speed: Basically equivalent to mobula and goldfish, only lagging behind squid and junker.
Turn acceleration: Significantly better than every ship (including golfish) except junker squid and spire.
Vertical speed: Essentially equivalent to all others.
Vertical Acceleration: Behind mobula, spire, squid, and goldfish. Tied with junker.
Mass: Lagging behind only the galleon and pyramidion.
I'm not sure how you are reading those stats, but this would be one of the faster, more maneuverable ships in the game, quite sturdy in regards to health and armor, and carrying nearly as much raw fire power as a galleon, just more easily focused on one point.
There is OP, and there is just flat out unfair. This falls in the unfair category.
The image is out of date. Speed was nerfed. In regards to armor and health, you're not looking at it right. I nerfed the armor to match the Pyra, but the Health is VERY low. Consider the actual range health covers: 500-1400. 750 is very clearly on the LOW end of that scale. I will consider further nerfs though. As I already said, turning is being nerfed. Mass doesn't matter for enough for me to give a crap about it at this point, as it has no major impact in a theoretical environment where it can't be tested.
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750 is very clearly on the LOW end of that scale.
Three ships have more health than your proposed ship.
Three ships have less health than your proposed ship.
One ship has the same amount of health as your proposed ship.
750 health is clearly not a small amount of permahull - it's obviously around average. And I would argue that it's a high average, at that - the median ship health is 700.
And considering that the three ships that have higher permahull have very clear drawbacks to them (galleon can't maneuver very well, goldfish and squid the second least and least amount of armor in the game), your proposed ship doesn't seem to be balanced at all.
Mass doesn't matter for enough for me to give a crap about it at this point, as it has no major impact in a theoretical environment where it can't be tested.
It matters, because if nothing else, it determines how easily your guns can get rammed off arc.
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Fine then, how would YOU balance it? Rather than just telling me its wrong, why not give some suggestions?
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2 front light guns, 2 rear light guns, and a heavy gun on each side.
The 2 front facing guns are each angled 20-30 degrees away from the center-line of the ship, so the point forwards and out. The 2 back facing guns have similar angles, just facing backwards.
Mass at 175: Less than a pyramidion, but higher than anything else. Capable of ramming, but not set to out-do the ramming ship.
600 Armor
1000 Permahull
Speed 32m/s
Acceleration 3m/s2
Turning Speed 9 degrees/s
Turning Acceleration 5 degrees/s2
Vertical Speed 17.03 m/s
Vertical Acceleration 3.25 m/s2
Basically from the firepower you want to pack on this thing, I see a light galleon. You also want to get rid of blind-spots, and keep maneuverability. You can't have it all.
Rolling with the light galleon idea, and the lack of blind spots, I gave it the ability to get coverage on every angle, with the drawback of poor overlaps. This means you can always keep a gun on an enemy, but the odds of getting 2 at once are much lower.
Since weapon combos are the strongest part of a build, and my design takes those away from you, I gave it good speed and decent acceleration. I left it having the highest vertical speed and upped its vertical acceleration a bit due to what I took away in other areas.
I nerfed your turn speed/acceleration because you have no blind-spots. You shouldn't need to turn as much.
I would leave the captain on a raised plinth at the back of the ship.
Standing in the middle of the ship, facing backwards, would be a set of stairs going directly up to the wheel. The plinth would be raised above head height, and there would be 2 support columns at the back of it holding it up. You would be able to walk underneath. Underneath I would put the balloon, with appropriate tubes going out around the pilot's plinth up to the balloon.
On that main deck there would be 2 engines split wide. An engineer could easily access the 2 turning engines and the balloon (similar to a junker, but below the pilot spot).
On the bottom deck would be the 2 heavy guns and the main engine.
On the top deck again would be the hull towards the front, a small walk from the balloon. The 2 front guns would be on the main deck.
On the pilot's plinth, behind him, above the turning engines, would be the 2 aft guns.
Upon further consideration, this would be a heavy junker/light galleon.
The big consideration in movement design for players would be to make sure that they could easily move between guns. Since you sacrifice a lot for continuous coverage, you need to make sure that players can actually maintain that continuous coverage.
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2 front light guns, 2 rear light guns, and a heavy gun on each side.
The 2 front facing guns are each angled 20-30 degrees away from the center-line of the ship, so the point forwards and out. The 2 back facing guns have similar angles, just facing backwards.
Mass at 175: Less than a pyramidion, but higher than anything else. Capable of ramming, but not set to out-do the ramming ship.
600 Armor
1000 Permahull
Speed 32m/s
Acceleration 3m/s2
Turning Speed 9 degrees/s
Turning Acceleration 5 degrees/s2
Vertical Speed 17.03 m/s
Vertical Acceleration 3.25 m/s2
Basically from the firepower you want to pack on this thing, I see a light galleon. You also want to get rid of blind-spots, and keep maneuverability. You can't have it all.
Rolling with the light galleon idea, and the lack of blind spots, I gave it the ability to get coverage on every angle, with the drawback of poor overlaps. This means you can always keep a gun on an enemy, but the odds of getting 2 at once are much lower.
Since weapon combos are the strongest part of a build, and my design takes those away from you, I gave it good speed and decent acceleration. I left it having the highest vertical speed and upped its vertical acceleration a bit due to what I took away in other areas.
I nerfed your turn speed/acceleration because you have no blind-spots. You shouldn't need to turn as much.
I would leave the captain on a raised plinth at the back of the ship.
Standing in the middle of the ship, facing backwards, would be a set of stairs going directly up to the wheel. The plinth would be raised above head height, and there would be 2 support columns at the back of it holding it up. You would be able to walk underneath. Underneath I would put the balloon, with appropriate tubes going out around the pilot's plinth up to the balloon.
On that main deck there would be 2 engines split wide. An engineer could easily access the 2 turning engines and the balloon (similar to a junker, but below the pilot spot).
On the bottom deck would be the 2 heavy guns and the main engine.
On the top deck again would be the hull towards the front, a small walk from the balloon. The 2 front guns would be on the main deck.
On the pilot's plinth, behind him, above the turning engines, would be the 2 aft guns.
Upon further consideration, this would be a heavy junker/light galleon.
The big consideration in movement design for players would be to make sure that they could easily move between guns. Since you sacrifice a lot for continuous coverage, you need to make sure that players can actually maintain that continuous coverage.
This can work, but it removes the unique idea of changing the gun positions. I'll have to think more on this.
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Naturally more tweaks would actually be needed, but the problem with having gun swapping is that you ask the devs to put a massive amount of work into creating a feature not already in the game, to add a gimmick that doesn't necessarily add that much to gameplay. No ship has a distinctly unique feature like that that stands out from the rest. All ships are just different in layout and hardpoint locations. There is nothing inherently unique about any of them outside of their layout.
I can understand wanting to add something unique like that to the game, but you always have to keep in mind the limitations of what we are working with. This isn't a big studio. It is an indy developer supported initially by kickstarter. Everything takes more time than it would elsewhere, so each new characteristic like that must be carefully considered before the devs even think about looking at it.