lol@muse

[Narayan]

Muse I'm frustrated with you, not at the noobs anymore or the trolls. Not at the unbalanced lobbies or the lack of players and I'm fairly sure I'm not alone. This may earn me a ban but here goes.

lol@muse for thinking alliance is the future, no one is gonna log as many hours in that game as skirmish, I would be surprised if someone plays more than 100hrs.

lol@muse for no votekick you hav literally ruined thousands of matches, raged vets, and made people quit the game.

lol@muse for loving Jedi sooo much even tho all of us who actually play the game have known what he's been up too for months.

lol@muse for looking like you just dont give a crap anymore about quality just look at this alliance costumes.

lol@muse for your ca's that don't log on and train and your mods  that are never around when you need them.

lol@muse for punishing vets and not noobs and smurfs.

lol@muse for no new ships or guns in skirmish for years, oh yea and skyball.

lol@muse for selling all those games and no one is online, and still not figuring out your doing something wrong.

lol@muse for you attempt to stop match stacking that doesn't work even a little.

lol@muse for not respecting the opinions of the people keeping your 5 year old game alive.

lol@muse for not playing your own game.

[Zabinzu]

Thank you muse for a great game.

Thank You Muse for doing your best, even when there are others trying to bring you down

Thank you Muse for attempting to revitalize the player base and fulfill your kickstarter campaign

Thank you Muse for the great memories I have made

Thank you for tolerance with veterans and newbs alike

Biggest of all thank you for the spire, the munker, and your continued work to help create a great community.

[Naoura]

Have a salute, Zabinzu. Wish I could give two.

Muse definitely, definitely has room for improvement, and definitely needs to get it's act together, but they are responsible for a fantastic game. They are trying, desperately so, even if they're doing it incorrectly.

Bad prioritization is the issue, I think. Just really, really bad prioritization and biting off much more than they can chew. Adventure mode was the biggest example of this. They are small, very, very small. Tiny. And they wanted to make a full MMO. Big, big steps for such a small company. Way too big, honestly, from the small place they had been with GoI.

Alliance is a difference model. It's too big for just a DLC. Just a content patch. They stepped too far for what they had, and now they're on shaky ground. I want Alliance to succeed... but I seriously, seriously think they should have taken much smaller steps, reutilize old maps and simply add some new assets in order to give th PvE feel. Slowly tease in the PvE elements so as to teach newer players, as well as build anticipation for a much larger release.

Alliance should have been released as, basically, a new game from Muse. Not a DLC. A massive, massive content update, pooling their resources so as to build it properly. The DLC they released should have been much smaller and more MOBA focused.

Just my two cents... but Muse isn't the awful, cold, distant overlords some people think. They're just small and ambitious, while being bad at focusing on what they should.

[Aethelfrith]

Zabinzu and Naoura summed it up pretty well, so there's no need to add my two bits.

Thanks for making this game. I'm just upset that I didn't know about it sooner.

[Narayan]

@zabinzu: You last logged in 61 days ago lol so you probably aren't as affected by a lot of the stuff I mentioned as an active player would be, and for someone who loves the game so much you should drop by more. Or did you just get tired of playing it cause no new ships ,guns, or maps?

@Naoura: I'm not saying muse is cold hearted, I'm saying they are mismanaged and that is hurting the game badly, which you seem to agree with.

[Zabinzu]

Guess I need to be more active then, perhaps I'll play a game tonight

[Narayan]

I mean I'm just saying for someone who posts this giant I love muse post and then it turns out you don't even play the game anymore. Why did you stop playing? What made you not have any desire to log in for 2 months if the game and muse are so amazing? Something made you get tired of playing this game and that's the point of my thread, the fact that you haven't played in 2 minutes maths proves the point.

[Naoura]

@Narayan I agree with the fact that it's been managed badly. I just disagree with the way you go about it.

Muse isn't a joke, and they're not incompetent. They've just made bad calls and bad moves. Skyball was an attempt, but one that didn't pan out because of some mis-steps. VIP is one that they've thankfully, fixed, and fixed properly, honestly.

They're currently trying to work with the community on ship changes. The spire changes were disasterous, but they were a move in a better direction. Better than stagnancy, at the very least.

The biggest issue I see from Muse is ambition. Adventure mode wouldn't have been a DLC, and they shouldn't have tried making it that way. Not in the slightest. Alliance suffers from the same fate; too much, too fast. From that part alone, Skirmish has suffered.

I'll agree with a lack of solid direction, but I am against being as you are with it.

[Narayan]

Ok you disagree with how I say it but not what I say, I can accept that. You haven't had any problems with trolls? You don't feel like muse doesn't listen to the community? Because I think they don't listen and that's why I'm changing my tone in the hopes that they will hear, and don't say they don't read the forums cause they got in here quick as shit to lock sparkles thread. Oh and mismanagement is incompetence.

[Naoura]

1: I've dealt with trolls. I've played around them. I've had some pretty successful matches even with a troll, because I had a competent crew around him and could work around. Annoying, yes. Game-breaking, no, because eventually they leave. If you get angry, it encourages them. Otherwise, you teach them. If they don't want to learn, that's them, and they'll leave the game in a few weeks anyways, because they can't use their 'l33t h4x0r sk1ll5' to solo a match and trash talk everyone else. Lobby full of trolls? I'll move. Do I wish there were a kick function? It'd be nice, especially to get rid of the truly toxic fools. But that would divide Guns to a point where you'd have high-levels playing skeleton crews, and 3v3/4v4 would become ghost towns. 2v2 is still the most played game mode, and that's JUST because of population.

2: I'll agree, Muse could listen more. Not hear, listen. Currently, they do just hear what the playerbase says, and refer back to numbers rather than active play. I would KILL to have Muse play some smurf accounts, be quiet, backed off, and get the pulse of the game from a novice perspective or from a mid-high level perspective. It would be a wonderful way for them to get feedback, by just listening to idle chatter. Waste of time? No. Waste of manpower? Slighty, especially with the focus on Alliance, which is why I can understand why they haven't done it, because of a lack of prioritization.

3: They do read the forums, just not the parts people want. As I said, they hear. Not listen. They see what people say, but don't really have the assets to respond. Or else they are too hesitant to respond, and completely destroy the meta, especially with additions like the Minotaur and Skyball, everyone's favorite whipping posts.

4: Mismanagement is not incompetence. Shall we look at the recent BMW scandal for reference?

[Narayan]

3v3 and 4v4 is a ghost town, less than 100 people on average on US weeknight. If you do somehow manage to find one they don't last long because they get unbalanced really quick. That's due to low pop and that has already happened without vote kick.

If vets wanted to play with a skeleton crew they could do that now by just starting a vet match they don't need vote kick. Most vets who play a regular open lobby do so with the intention of accepting one maybe two communicative low level players. That's not what kind of players we are encountering, so I don't see your anti vote kick argument as having valid points.

It also brings up something else you said th vets wouldn't play with noobs? Is that a bad thing? Should people be forced to play with someone they don't want to in a game? It sounds in a way like you want to dictate to others the manner in which they should have fun. Noobs can go play with noobs and there is nothing wrong with that. Just like there is nothing wrong with vets playing together with noobs if they want. This is where muse gets it dead wrong don't force people into situations they want or the community will get toxic. No one wants to train all the time that's why you have CAs even tho none of them play anymore cause they got sick of the game and raining as well.


BMW was mismanaged to cheat, incompetent to get caught.

Muse was mismanaged in its decisions as far as not adding vote kick, handling of the community, certain changes like mino and skyball, and going for Alliance instead of improving skirmish. They are incompetent because they haven't remedied any of those.  Banning Jedi was the first real action I've seen in a long time, and look what it was, and how long it went on.

[Naoura]

I've seen 3v3's last a few hours. 4v4's as well. They can get unbalanced if the Vets in match refuse to swap ships to balance it out. That's on the half of the vets, or else the novice's that are unable to comprehend what a notification is, and they will be leaving anyways because they will suffocate because they forgot how to breathe. Newer players will end up getting stomped 2v2 or 3v3, and partially it's on the half of the vets to balance things. Is it right? Maybe not, and it would be nice if there were a way to automatically balance out the lobby, but then there would be massive complaints about not being able to play with a ship full of friends.

I'm not saying 'want to', I'm saying end up being stuck with. if you were to siply vote-kick everyone below level 30, you'd still end up with some idiots. Seasoned idiots, but idiots nonetheless, who will end up loading incen into a gatling and firing at their balloon. Don't say you haven't seen it, because you have. Granted, it'll help get the most toxic of individuals out, but what happens when vets are kicked instead of reported when the vet was in the right, and was actively trying to help? Votekick works both ways. Vets are going to be floating around because of trolls, trolls leave because they run out of people to troll, newer players rarely have anyone with enough experience to learn from, bad habits set in, they finally meet a vet, vet gets angry because of the bad habits, novice gets angry because this is how they've always done it, etc. Etc. Etc.

BMW was not incompetent to get caught. Someone just caught them in the act. The truth would get out eventually, no matter how clean your tracks are.

Muse has made bad decisions, yes. They've handled some things poorly, and haven't been as active as they should, yes. This doesn't mean they are entirely incompetent. That topic, thankfully, has been laid to rest, and it was a long time coming. They're busy going in the wrong direction, but when they finally finish, they'll realize their mistakes, and fix it.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

On the subject of vote kick I'll always agree it needs to be done.

However...

PVE games are traditionally played more than PVP. That is a hard fact in the industry. Been documented over the years. Alliance is a good move and as long as it is handled right, it will extend the life of GOIO much longer than Skirmish. There are just more people who don't like competing with others than there are those who do. Your own posts even show the prime reasons why, there are a lot of trolls.

Heck I'm gonna play Alliance probably more than Skirmish once it is live just because I'm traditionally a PVE player. I'll do PVP but I'd rather be raiding than sitting around with 10yr olds and trolls who make me wish I could duct tape them to a mine launcher and see how many mines I can cram up them.

As far as the Jedi fiasco goes. I dunno if Muse was friendly with him or not, but you can't expect Muse to be 100% aware all the time of what a player is doing. There have been some people and clans Muse has been friendly with over the last few years that if they knew them the way some of us do, they'd never give them the time of day. Quite a few nutjobs actually. Most don't put that face publicly. Unless Muse is provided with ample evidence from the get go, they can't be investigating someone's report about trouble because it could always be someone trying to slander another.

Also don't expect reports to get filed unless you are doing it. This has been a long time problem with this community and why it has lost so many members. If you look at the players who have been around since 1.0, there aren't really that many left as a whole. There is a reason for that. Lack of vote kick, bad design choices (every patch since 1.2), and just overall friction within the community. Yet they'll never take time to address it here, let alone send Muse an e-mail. They just move to other games. Don't count on people to care to get their voice heard. It's very much like the American political system. There always is a great amount of people who just don't care to vote when it matters. Doesn't matter the candidate or party. They just don't want to vote. Figuring it won't do any good either way.

To be fair to Muse, the new gametypes were ones that had been asked for by the community long before many here ever got here. Now the problem is, the game we had then, where it would have benefited from more gametypes, is not the game we have now. So there is rebalancing that has to take place. Also the gametypes aren't the ones the community put forward. Skyball is spawned from Cargo Carrier, a gametype from Aerodrome 3, which is a modified VIP mode. What we'd do is designate a ship as the cargo carrier and then the cargo would swap on death till the game ends in kill cap. Points would be awarded for non cargo kills but the team that holds the cargo by the end would get the most and win. So it would actually be a mode where the VIP would swap from team to team. There would be no capture points so it would encourage teams to slug it out to the end.

Actually one of the problems is, Muse respects opinions too much. Which is why we don't have vote kick and some of the other silliness that has happened. They like the community a lot and listen often. Which is not really a bad thing, just this is their first big PVP game like this so it's been a learning experience. Would you rather have Muse be EA and you never hear a word from them ever?

[Naoura]

I'm giving out enough salutes to warrant being a private in the Pentagon. What is this madness?

Votekick is sensitive. Highly sensitive. Do I agree that it'll be a positive for the community as a whole? Hesitantly. I'm worried about trolls and such and people being abusive with it, but then again, they'll be abusive with anything. Will it hurt the community as a whole? Not likely, but I'd still be concerned.

I will admit that I'm looking forward to Alliance. I've been in every beta and the open Alpha. Hell, I begged my way into the test server just to play Alliance sometimes (Though I haven't reinstalled it for a while). I just think Muse didn't take the right preparations for it. Alliance is big. Very, very big. As in twice the size of Guns big. That's not a DLC, that's a new game, and they should have prepared for it. GoI is going to end up being the DLC of Alliance at the rate they are going.

I didn't know that about the gametypes, Glider, and that gametype sounds a lot better than Skyball. I get where they were going with trying to adapt Skyball, but still, having it be more along the lines of Team Kingpin would have been a more positive direction to go in.

[Daft Loon]

GoI is going to end up being the DLC of Alliance at the rate they are going.

Last I heard the game will switch to being sold as "Guns of Icarus Alliance" without a separate option to purchase just skirmish mode. It will lose them a few sales to people who just want skirmish mode at its current lower price but probably benefit sales and the community via people who won't like skirmish going directly to alliance rather than sucking at skirmish for a bit before leaving and never getting alliance.