Author Topic: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.  (Read 630 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« on: January 17, 2017, 02:31:19 pm »
First off, I would like to say the Spank is mostly fan service and testing 'what if'. We (a group of players across the forum, ingame, and Skype) have been working on what numbers and stats to use for months. Most of the conversation happens in Skype (link to group), ingame for years, while more in-depth details are posted on the forum. This is not a sudden thing, though it may seem so to non-forum/Skype dwellers.

No one dislikes how the Spire flies now. This is not about changing a disliked ship or making balance with its current playstyle. It is about re-imagining what it could have been. I would like to point out at this time that, to me, it feels as if most nerfs in the game have been because something was too good against the Spire. It is a big, easy to hit target at any range. Consider this as you look through the countless nerfs, and ponder what the game would be like now if the Spire had been introduced as a tank instead of a glass cannon. Consider further as you look at the numbers proposed, and how the other ships would have had to adapt.

Being that the gun arcs failed to deliver on any sort of 'fun' factor, I have started a conversation on new gun arcs that add a lot of interesting possibilities and more variation than the default "aim Spire forward and shoot" meta.

Test numbers:

Armor 900 (11 spanner hits)
Hull 1500 (100 more than Galleon)
Vert 6m/s2 (same as current Mobula)
Top speed: 24m/s (now slowest ship)
Forward acceleration: 4.5m/s2  (considering dropping this slightly to Goldfish 3.5 range.)

Guns:

1. Heavy gun, no change
2. left side helm, 10deg left.
3. lower left, 60deg left (more may be needed)
4. right top, 10 deg right

The goal is to create the opportunity to use more combinations of guns in the time given by having more hull and armor, and to add in a strafing ability on the left side. No current 'meta' builds will be lost, but some will be slightly harder to achieve. New combinations will be possible (and likely OP), being dual Hades, and dual merc, making the Spire its own worst enemy.

Discuss and contribute. Remember, this is about Tank Spire, not what you think is needed to balance current Spire. Post accordingly.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 05:10:49 pm »
How do we actually contribute to discussion on a rebalanced Spire without talking about the balance of the Spire? I'll just address the common points then.

The Spire has many noticeable weaknesses and quirks. The biggest ones are:

  • The ship has a very large vertical profile. This makes it the easiest target in the game for long-range arcing weaponry.
  • The balloon has large armor hitboxes on both the front and back. This combined with its very high balloon makes it easy to get above its gun arc in close range and kill it by shooting the "beak" on the front of the balloon.
  • This ship has some of the easiest to disable weapons in the game, with them being closely packed, towards the center of the hull, and completely unprotected. This is what makes burst Artemis such a strong counter to the Spire, as 5 shots can easily disable every gun on the ship, and it's possible to hit multiple guns with one shot.
  • While technically the third heaviest ship in the game (tied with the Goldfish), it is only 150 tons compared to the (absurd) 300 tons of the Pyramidion. This combined with the largest hull profile in the game (and low amount of armor on the current version) makes this ship both easy to ram and easy to kill with a ram.
  • To both pilot and bring full firepower to bear, you have to give up speed of repair. Two engineers up top and gunner rotating bottom guns means the balloon is going to be extremely vulnerable.
  • To have full firepower and efficient repairs, the pilot has to get off the helm and use the second gun and assist in armor repair. This method is likely the most optimal, but this method requires a lot more skill from the pilot as they need to set up the ship to drift favorably before they leave the helm.
  • There is a barrier preventing jumping from the helm to the hull quickly. Attempting to jump to the helm will result in bonking this wall and falling straight down with no forward momentum. This makes it faster to walk down the ramp of slowness than to do what is normally the optimal thing and jump over it. Probably the one detail that makes me never want to fly the Spire no matter what they do to it, especially since I would have to be using that ramp a lot.
I suggest bumping the weight up to at least 200 while maintaining its maneuverability. This will improve its resilience to ramming and terrain collision.

On the wiki, Mobula's vertical acceleration is 4.5 m/s2. So the proposed vertical acceleration will be pretty crazy.

The proposed change to speed will push the Spire further into its support/sniping role. It was already the third slowest ship, faster only than the Mobula and Junker. Being slower than the Junker, it may have considerable issues keeping up with the battle outside of sniping.

The proposed changes to the hull and armor may give more viability to having two top-side engineers for tanking, but will demand even more that the pilot help rebuild the hull as it remains the closest hull to the helm on any ship but now takes a ton of work to rebuild.

The proposed changes to arcs makes the gun placement comparable to the Pyramidion, but with a heavy gun. Quad is still possible by angling ship to the right during engagement. Expect to see double hades/merc + Hflak with lower left artemis/banshee.

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 06:23:48 pm »
New combinations will be possible (and likely OP), being dual Hades, and dual merc, making the Spire its own worst enemy.

YES. Yes. This. Yes.

This ship has some of the easiest to disable weapons in the game, with them being closely packed, towards the center of the hull, and completely unprotected. This is what makes burst Artemis such a strong counter to the Spire, as 5 shots can easily disable every gun on the ship, and it's possible to hit multiple guns with one shot.

#NerfBurst by getting rid of the clip increase. Would really help a lot of things, I think.

Quote
While technically the third heaviest ship in the game (tied with the Goldfish), it is only 150 tons compared to the (absurd) 300 tons of the Pyramidion. This combined with the largest hull profile in the game (and low amount of armor on the current version) makes this ship both easy to ram and easy to kill with a ram.

I agree... I think the Pyra could use a SLIGHT nerf to mass and a SLIGHT buff to forward acceleration, but that's a discussion for another time.

Quote
To both pilot and bring full firepower to bear, you have to give up speed of repair. Two engineers up top and gunner rotating bottom guns means the balloon is going to be extremely vulnerable.

I imagine one of those engineers hopping to the bottom at closer ranges as the ship "twists" into another gun mode, utilizing guns 1, 2, and 3 instead of the "opening" guns 1, 2, and 4. But we'll see!

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To have full firepower and efficient repairs, the pilot has to get off the helm and use the second gun and assist in armor repair. This method is likely the most optimal, but this method requires a lot more skill from the pilot as they need to set up the ship to drift favorably before they leave the helm.

Doesn't this already happen? As a Spire pilot, I'm CONSTANTLY rushing to the hull to repair it, even if it's not destroyed, as my crew put as much firepower on the enemy as possible.

Quote
There is a barrier preventing jumping from the helm to the hull quickly. Attempting to jump to the helm will result in bonking this wall and falling straight down with no forward momentum. This makes it faster to walk down the ramp of slowness than to do what is normally the optimal thing and jump over it. Probably the one detail that makes me never want to fly the Spire no matter what they do to it, especially since I would have to be using that ramp a lot.

I haven't noticed this. I just do a 180 degree turn and run to the damn thing ASAP.

Quote
I suggest bumping the weight up to at least 200 while maintaining its maneuverability. This will improve its resilience to ramming and terrain collision.

I'd also increase the turning acceleration to make Phoenix Claw superfluous, or at least overkill.

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On the wiki, Mobula's vertical acceleration is 4.5 m/s2. So the proposed vertical acceleration will be pretty crazy.

I think Richard made a typo when saying it would be the same as the current Mob. Yes, it would be BETTER than the current Mob, and that's the idea, because physics. The Mob is a pancake and shouldn't be rising/falling so easily.  I'm (fairly) happy with the current state of the Mobula (although I would keep its wonky turning but make it begin turning even more quickly and even harder to stop turning).

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The proposed change to speed will push the Spire further into its support/sniping role. It was already the third slowest ship, faster only than the Mobula and Junker. Being slower than the Junker, it may have considerable issues keeping up with the battle outside of sniping.

I agree and disagree. Will it push it into sniping? No. It can snipe, but it doesn't have to. Will it push it into support? All ships should support each other anyway. I agree the speed reduction is a big issue, quite on purpose. If the #TankSpire is going to be so formidable, attacking it should be tempting and allies should stay near to support it as well.

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The proposed changes to the hull and armor may give more viability to having two top-side engineers for tanking, but will demand even more that the pilot help rebuild the hull as it remains the closest hull to the helm on any ship but now takes a ton of work to rebuild.

Good.

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The proposed changes to arcs makes the gun placement comparable to the Pyramidion, but with a heavy gun. Quad is still possible by angling ship to the right during engagement. Expect to see double hades/merc + Hflak with lower left artemis/banshee.

You read our minds :) Hopefully the decreased horizontal speed will make up for that firepower...

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 08:00:43 pm »
Hmm. Ya, I remembered the wrong change notes on the Mobula. Likely one of the devapp ones. Official change notes list is as 4.75m/s2 now. Wiki says so as well.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 09:39:20 pm »

Quote
To have full firepower and efficient repairs, the pilot has to get off the helm and use the second gun and assist in armor repair. This method is likely the most optimal, but this method requires a lot more skill from the pilot as they need to set up the ship to drift favorably before they leave the helm.

Doesn't this already happen? As a Spire pilot, I'm CONSTANTLY rushing to the hull to repair it, even if it's not destroyed, as my crew put as much firepower on the enemy as possible.
Tell the newbie pilots that. The devs too. Kept telling Keyvias or however it's spelt that I needed help rebuilding. Tried hinting that the pilot should help rebuild. Didn't get the hint. Spire captain absolutely has to be mobile for the ship to be effective.

Quote
There is a barrier preventing jumping from the helm to the hull quickly. Attempting to jump to the helm will result in bonking this wall and falling straight down with no forward momentum. This makes it faster to walk down the ramp of slowness than to do what is normally the optimal thing and jump over it. Probably the one detail that makes me never want to fly the Spire no matter what they do to it, especially since I would have to be using that ramp a lot.

I haven't noticed this. I just do a 180 degree turn and run to the damn thing ASAP.

Jumping over ramps is always faster. People who bunnyhop a lot may have noticed that it's marginally faster than normal walking, but it's not because jumping is faster on its own but that ramps slow you down. This personal peeve on the Spire may be minor for the majority of users, but it irritates me to no end to the point where it's one of my least-favorite ships to both pilot and engineer on because that ramp is the most well-traveled part of the ship and I hate being forced to walk ramps. If I didn't I'd be a terrible engineer.

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 08:04:31 am »
Tell the newbie pilots that. The devs too. Kept telling Keyvias or however it's spelt that I needed help rebuilding. Tried hinting that the pilot should help rebuild. Didn't get the hint. Spire captain absolutely has to be mobile for the ship to be effective.

Yup. I always bring a Pipewrench as pilot on the Spire, although with the proposed #TankSpire changes I'd likely bring a Spanner now 8) This is also why I bring a Spanner as a Pyramidion pilot... I cannot count the number of times I've quickly helped rebuild the hull out of the red and saved my skin. Literally thousands of times.

Anyway!

Here are the most recent proposals from this thread stated again because OCD and pretty and visual and clear:

#TANKSPIRE:
- Armor: 900 HP (was 400, is now most armored ship with 100 HP more than Galleon)
- Hull: 1500 HP (was 950, is now most hardy ship with 100 HP more than Galleon)
- Acceleration: 4.50 m/s² (same)
- Max Turn Speed: 12.08 deg/s (same)
- Top speed: 24 m/s (was 28 m/s, is now the slowest ship)
- Forward acceleration: 4.5 m/s² (same)
- Vertical acceleration: 6 m/s² (was 3.75 m/s², is now the most vertical ship)
- Top vertical speed: 17 m/s (same)
- Slot 1 Gun (Heavy Gun) angled 0° from center (same)
- Slot 2 Gun (Top Left) angled 10° to port (was 0° offset from center)
- Slot 3 Gun (Bottom Left) angled 60° to port (was 40° to port)
- Slot 4 Gun (Top Right) angled 10° to starboard (was 40° to starboard)

Hope this is helpful! For posterity.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:07:59 am by Atruejedi »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 10:08:07 pm »
I would personally drop the acceleration down to at most 4m/s2, which is still faster than all but Squid.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Spire Tank (Spank) proposals.
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 04:41:35 pm »
#TANKSPIRE is a go. I repeat. #TANKSPIRE is a go.

Time to get your Spanks on.