SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2

[N-Sunderland]

A single hit with flare is 15 stacks of fire and that does 38DPS (8+2*the number of stacks) fire damage per second - before baloon modifiers. I have no idea about the baloon health or fire modifiers, but 10 seconds of 15 stacks nearly destroys the whole baloon (witch doesen't quite add up to listed 1200 baloon health).

Fire damage done by stacks has no modifiers for any components.

[Captain Smollett]

No , I'm pretty certain that fire stacks use fire damage multipliers and that the initial stack does 8 fire damage per second and subsequent stacks do 2 fire dps.

[N-Sunderland]

I don't think it does (for the multipliers, that is).

Can we get Eric's word on this?

[Machiavelliest]

I don't think it does (for the multipliers, that is).

Can we get Eric's word on this?

He's on vacation.  I'm pretty sure fire stacks get modified.  How else does fire do damage?

[N-Sunderland]

I don't think it does (for the multipliers, that is).

Can we get Eric's word on this?

He's on vacation.  I'm pretty sure fire stacks get modified.  How else does fire do damage?

The particles themselves do damage, along with the stacks they put down. Just like any other gun.

[Machiavelliest]

Indeed, but working with the damage both giving and receiving today, I'm pretty sure that stacks hit harder on balloon than anything else, which would reflect the balloon damage bias.  Plus, it's been said in the past (can't find citation) that fire stacks are fire damage proper.

[Crafeksterty]

Anything on Spires? Honestly, spires are either Bad or OK. And when it is OK it is actually GREAT. But the enemies will always be Perfect in the spires eyes.

Despite a ship like pyramedion having bad menouverability can still outrun a Spire in a vertical fight. Or Outwin. Going up and under ships then kiting them is difficult on its own. But incredibly difficult on half the maps. If you compare all its advantages vs its disadvantages, the spire will just have more disadvantages that pop out.

And by the maps, im talking about vertical space, maps with tight spaces. Etc. Maps with low vertical space (Fromm ground to maximum sky) can make the spires jump. When the baloon is upgraded, then from the ground hydrogen yourself and go up. You will sky rocket above the maximum hight. However. It only works on low vertical maps with baloon upgraded + Hydrogen.

AI do better than players on the spire also, engineers move around the spire like buttah and get to everything quite quickly, while players need to form a formation, one top one bottom.
AI also do great as gunners. They simply hit the target with difficult sniper weapons such as the mortar or the flak. Players always miss.

It has 2 guns in the front. The right gun can aim forward only with the artemis, and the left gun (Lower left gun) is just a bonus that barely does a thing. So flare it is.

Now this is my stupid fix to make the spire more of a glasscannon if they dont buff his maneuver. Cause honestly, either make its maneuver better so that baloon upgrade will be like hydrogening or chuting down. Or. Bend the Right gunner position to aim forward. So that it can have 2 sniper guns on the upper. And the lower left one able to be able to aim alot more to the right. This can open up more builds for close range, sneaky spires aswell.

Other than that. Spire needs a buff.

[Captain Smollett]

Ok, not to get off topic, but AI are worse at everything (this is probably intentional).  When you start to play with experienced players you will become loathsome of anytime you don't have an all human crew.

That being said the Spire's right gun has been turned forward, which is why you can now aim almost any gun into a trifecta except another mercury (also quite intentional).

I enjoy winning with a spire when I do but man is it ever a glass cannon.  When it get's ignored or has positional advantage it can do incredible dps in the right hands, when it get's focused....

Not sure what the Spire needs.  It's in many ways the best it's ever been, but in other ways it's worse for the 1.2 changes.  It definitely has the ability for incredible dps but when the physics changed, it made the spire into a giant ramming practice dummy.

I'd like to see perhaps the right gun turned another 5 degrees to start with, then go from there.  It's close to being competitive but since it can't really dodge anymore it's not only become more powerful but also far more fragile. 

The game still has a lot of evolution to its balance and I think awkm is carefully dialing in the Spire.  I see it as being almost there, and should make it all the way pretty soon.

[Chrinus]

Quick question before moving on to the Spire: Have we heard anything about the Junker's turn speed being intentional with this patch?

On to the new Spire. She seems to do well on 3v3/4v4 maps where her allies can tie up foes before her later arrival and mass devastation. Unfortunately, you rarely ever get the opportunity to trinity against a decent adversary. I know as a captain, if I see a Spire I normally crack an evil smile and crack the poor ship in a second. Even moreso now with the angle change to the starboard gun, which extends the rear blind spot slightly more to the right which compounds with the turn reduction on the vessel.

She's definitely much more of a threat, albeit glass by all cards played if attacked by a proper loadout.

[Sammy B. T.]

Quick question before moving on to the Spire: Have we heard anything about the Junker's turn speed being intentional with this patch?

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,767.0.html

I am fairly sure it was intentional as they list the Junker turn speed as the second fastest.

[Chrinus]

So it is . That's somewhat concerning considering it's a common trifecta ship that runs broadside with a low profile hull. You'd think a balloon that size would act as a giant windsail and greatly hamper the turning rate of the ship. Considering you only need about 70-80 degrees of angle compared to other ships, it just feels too easy to keep your guns on target with an inherently efficient combination compared to the 3rd in line's: The Goldfish, which most often runs a role of support ship rather than a brawler due to the odd angle to achieve two guns on target IF her guns can turn far enough to achieve a perpendicular bifecta.

You can see clearly how rugged the ship is from the cogs.. Just look at week 8. I understand that its survival has a lot to do with on board engineers, but also the profile of the broadside hull. From gunning I can say from medium range her profile is quite narrow compared to other ships and I commonly see flak fly between the balloon and the hull touching nothing on what otherwise would have littered the ground with spare parts.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the ship and her capabilities. However, the current state of the ship feels too agile for the firepower one can bring to bear. I think being able to bring 3 guns on target mere seconds after a full blindside is a little too much compared to the closest competitors on the list and their loadout capabilities.

[RearAdmiralZill]

The junker honestly needs that turning to be competitive against a pyra. Keep in mind that performing a trifecta means no one is repairing. Its not something to be sustained under heavy fire.

Also, of your armor goes down on a junker, you better start praying. You could hit a fly and it would take half that hull away.

Further, you have to turn a broadside and get crew on those guns to get the carnage started. For a pyra, you point the ship forward and you have two guys up there ready all the time. It needs that fast (yet slow to accelerate) turn to get guns facing.

For a Goldfish, that heavy gun is the main gun, and itll be doing 95-100% of your dps and killing. Trying to get a bifecta on that is hard, and usually not worth it. The side guns should compliment the front one, so that you can use it some, then finish with the main. That's my way of going about it anyway.

[Machiavelliest]

Chrinus brings some excellent points to the table.  Maybe the Junker needs a makeover, because it seems far too big to turn that fast with three engines.

Trifecta on the Junker is unachievable basically with sustained balloon killers or gat fire, which further reinforces the gat/flak meta.  With the new 5-forward medium gun emplacement ship coming out and recent ballooning depression reductions, and the need to drive at least a third gunner off of the Junker, the gat/flak meta is pretty much here to stay.

[Captain Smollett]

Well, I actually really like where the Junker is with game balance right now but I don't think it would be unreasonable for the Spire to have a bit faster turn speed and a little more acceleration as well.

Now the Spire still turns and accelerates very well, and though I could be remembering this wrong, before the physics changes I recall the Spire being able to turn even faster.  The Spire being the glass cannon currently does struggle (depending a lot on weapon loadout of course) if an enemy is able to effectively close.  Giving it a slightly better ability to dodge rams and scuttle behind cover could help nudge the ship into the competitive meta.

[Captain Smollett]

Don't forget the Junker is vulnerable to all disabling weapons due to its large balloon and concentrated components.  Being ever so slightly extra resilient to the gattling gun and flak due to it's small hit box I believe is well balanced.