Author Topic: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 24673 times)

Offline awkm

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SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« on: April 30, 2013, 02:24:35 pm »
Everything about ships in v1.2

Just so everyone knows, acceleration and mass was broken ever since the game's release.  There was a bug that was found during another check between calculated speeds and actual in-game speeds.  Previously, all ships had the same mass and accelerated at the same rate.  This is not the case now.  Each ship accelerates very differently on each axis (forward/backward, turning, and ascent/descent), has varying masses (Squid being lightest, Galleon being heaviest), and varying top forward/backward and turn speeds.  Top ascent/descent speeds are all the same at approx 12m/s.

Due to the existence of mass, pilot skills will affect a ship's movement slightly differently.  For example, using Hydrogen on a Galleon will still increase its top ascent speed as well as ascent acceleration, it will not affect it in the same magnitude as it does the Squid due to mass differences.

The Squid's handling may be more sticky than in the previous versions but when compared relatively to other ships the Squid still outclasses everyone else in maneuverability.

So far, there are no planned changes unless something egregious arises here.  I will continue to keep watch.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 02:31:34 pm by awkm »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 11:49:01 pm »
Harpoon Squid matches seem to have been ruined with the new patch. It's practically impossible to land kills.

(not very important, but just saying)

Offline Papa Paradox

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 04:04:40 am »
Harpoon Squid matches seem to have been ruined with the new patch. It's practically impossible to land kills.

(not very important, but just saying)
You killed something beautiful. ARE YOU HAPPY, ARE YOU?!?!!?!?

Hi, I'm Sunderlands anger translater. :>

Offline Kyren

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 04:59:01 am »
I've flown yesterday for the first time with the new patch, and the way the Goldfish handles now is just amazing. Every push on those engines results in a swift and graceful turn, even on full speed the turning rate is now competitive enough to catch a ship flying past fast enough. Compared to the handling before, I've been flying a brick.

All in all, matches seem to go much faster again - After the patch in which the Flak was nerfed, things seemed to go much slower, but now the fights are quick and unforgiving again. My thanks :)


Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2013, 04:12:00 am »
Here is something for you all to chew on. First I thought it was just hydro doing too much dmg that was the problem. Then I tested it right now. Hydro does 75dps to the balloons.

Now, before patch balloons had 1200 hp. I took a screenshot and looked it up to confirm.

So I tested it twice with my squid. Hitting hydro will kill a balloon in 10 seconds. 10 x 75 = 750.

Hmmm...that sure wasn't in the patch notes. A massive nerf to balloon hp and we would have never have known with the new ship loadout screens lacking any numbers. So now it makes sense why carronades were so OP at one time during the tester. With our balloons nerfed they could easily be. Now, what else was changed without being noted?

Offline Phoebe

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2013, 04:43:46 am »
Now, what else was changed without being noted?

The list is kind of growing

Offline Helmic

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2013, 11:22:17 pm »
It's really hard to ram with a Pyra now, even if the resulting ram doesn't result in seizures.  The low turning speed and the penalties to turning and acceleration make it very difficult to get up to ramming speed without help from an item, which in turn makes the turning speed issue worse.  This makes it very easy to repeatedly miss an enemy that's aware of you, I don't find myself landing rams except by surprise or against newer captains.

The Junker's manueverability has been absurdly buffed as well, before it was somewhat difficult to keep it in trifecta but now its incredibly easy to outrotate and outrun ships, particularly the Pyra.  Even if the Artemis gets nerfed, it'll still probably be very strong.    It has no blindspots, high armor, and high manueverability.  The turning speed feels pretty silly, to be honest.  The turning speed felt OK on a Pyra as it made it feel like the "fighter" ship (since the Goldfish has no close range kill guns), on a Junker you've got a broadsider which makes you feel like you're on a propeller on a helicopter.  I'll have to see where it goes after the Artemis is dealt with, but even before the patch the Junker was an excellent Pyra slayer with its larger trifecta and higher armor.

Spires still feel incredibly weak, they can trifecta too now but their armor still sucks which constantly pulls that third crewmember off of a gun and their low mass now makes them even more of a Pyra's bitch.  I think the lower left gun on the Spire should have been the one to be turned, it's closer to the hull and so it'd be easier for the hull engineer to babysit the fragile little thing.

And as for these threads themselves, it's a bit hard to talk about the guns and ships separately.  They're so very much intertwined, a gun's effectiveness depends entirely on where it is on a ship and how well that ship can get the gun in arc.  It makes more sense to have the maps separate but even those will favor certain ships and loadouts, possibly to the point of causing issues (like merc Pyras and lumberjack Galleons on Dunes).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 11:36:12 pm by -Bounty- Helmic »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2013, 11:24:29 pm »
The top right gun is meant for the pilot to use, Helmic.

Offline Helmic

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2013, 11:44:37 pm »
The top right gun is meant for the pilot to use, Helmic.

Or the engineer, a Spire that isn't turning in melee is a dead spire.  Certainly possible to do that with an Artemis but you don't need much of anything working to ram a Spire, particularly one whose captain has decided to man a gun.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 11:55:08 pm »
The top right gun is meant for the pilot to use, Helmic.

Or the engineer, a Spire that isn't turning in melee is a dead spire.  Certainly possible to do that with an Artemis but you don't need much of anything working to ram a Spire, particularly one whose captain has decided to man a gun.

The captain can freely fire the gun if you're sniping or if you've disabled their engines, both of which are likely to happen if you have an Artemis.

Offline Helmic

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 12:09:25 am »
Certainly possible to do that with an Artemis but you don't need much of anything working to ram a Spire, particularly one whose captain has decided to man a gun.

Offline NikolaiLev

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 02:24:56 am »
It's really hard to ram with a Pyra now, even if the resulting ram doesn't result in seizures.  The low turning speed and the penalties to turning and acceleration make it very difficult to get up to ramming speed without help from an item, which in turn makes the turning speed issue worse.  This makes it very easy to repeatedly miss an enemy that's aware of you, I don't find myself landing rams except by surprise or against newer captains.

The Junker's manueverability has been absurdly buffed as well, before it was somewhat difficult to keep it in trifecta but now its incredibly easy to outrotate and outrun ships, particularly the Pyra.  Even if the Artemis gets nerfed, it'll still probably be very strong.    It has no blindspots, high armor, and high manueverability.  The turning speed feels pretty silly, to be honest.  The turning speed felt OK on a Pyra as it made it feel like the "fighter" ship (since the Goldfish has no close range kill guns), on a Junker you've got a broadsider which makes you feel like you're on a propeller on a helicopter.  I'll have to see where it goes after the Artemis is dealt with, but even before the patch the Junker was an excellent Pyra slayer with its larger trifecta and higher armor.

Spires still feel incredibly weak, they can trifecta too now but their armor still sucks which constantly pulls that third crewmember off of a gun and their low mass now makes them even more of a Pyra's bitch.  I think the lower left gun on the Spire should have been the one to be turned, it's closer to the hull and so it'd be easier for the hull engineer to babysit the fragile little thing.

And as for these threads themselves, it's a bit hard to talk about the guns and ships separately.  They're so very much intertwined, a gun's effectiveness depends entirely on where it is on a ship and how well that ship can get the gun in arc.  It makes more sense to have the maps separate but even those will favor certain ships and loadouts, possibly to the point of causing issues (like merc Pyras and lumberjack Galleons on Dunes).

As a Bounty who's potentially become infamous by now for his exploits on a ramming Pyramidion, I have to wholeheartedly disagree here.  I always felt the Pyramidion was Too Good at just about everything.  Now, it actually needs to give thought to its build, or it simply must use ramming to be effective.  The horrible turn speed just makes sense, as a ramming ship with fairly good weaponry and forward speed.  It has drawbacks.

The Junker was horrible before.  Now, it's actually potent.  As for Artemises, I'm actually not sure they're as bad as they're made out to be, as they don't seem to have the raw DPS to make them dangerous.  It's the same deal as the Hwacha; they're commonly used, and obnoxious to deal with, but not actually very deadly.  It's possible the Junker was buffed too much, but the fact the Junker is a "Pyra slayer" isn't a problem in itself, as long as it's not an "Everything slayer."

I've been seeing lots of people making horrible use of Spires, charging in with lumberjacks or even hwachas mounted on the front.  They're a kiting, long range ship, meant to destroy an enemy before it even gets in range.  They should be using a Lumberjack or Flak at range, combined with a Field gun and Artemis.  That makes them ridiculously deadly.  Of course, they'll be outmatched in a close-in map, but the same can be said for a Galleon.  I could see a close-up Carronade loadout working on the Spire, actually, given the change to its top right weapon.

I definitely agree with you on your last point.  The balance between Ships and Guns is linked intimately.  That said, I feel the game's balance has never been in a better spot; all the problematic things are relatively mild, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:39:38 am by NikolaiLev »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 07:21:18 am »
Certainly possible to do that with an Artemis but you don't need much of anything working to ram a Spire, particularly one whose captain has decided to man a gun.

Yup, because they'll definitely be ramming you with no engines.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2013, 09:29:45 am »
Quote
As for Artemises, I'm actually not sure they're as bad as they're made out to be, as they don't seem to have the raw DPS to make them dangerous.

You don't need that much dps when you're destroying every gun the other boat has, thus just letting you slowly murder them.

I do agree with NikolaiLev's assessment of the Pyra and Junker. I think the only reason you see so many Junkers right now is the new artemis. You can get a trifecta so easily with them that its becoming the new meta missile boat.

Offline awkm

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Re: SHIPS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2013, 12:57:37 pm »
For the record, it's very hard for me to respect comparisons to how things were before because things were just broken before.  The way I look at the ship balance now is that it's NEW and we're working with a clean slate.  Therefore, handling of ships now is completely different.  Metas for each ship are only just beginning to shed light.

It's fine to talk about guns here.  There are separate threads to keep me sane.  I know that anything mentioned here is specifically about ships and that's already very helpful for me.