Info > Release Notes
Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Lanliss:
Muse, I want to let you know, though I am sure you already do, not everyone thinks the game is now ruined. I like the update, and can see the reasons behind the changes to spectate swapping. I loved the new tutorials, and foresee them helping a lot. Of course, all of this is coming from a guy who only ever solo queues. I occasionally used the swapping, for noble purposes of course, but I can live without it, and don't really understand the rather violent reaction to it.
Have not tried VIP, but look forward to it, although I wouldn't mind the ability for a team to vote for who gets VIP, or for someone to volunteer as the VIP.
ZnC:
So I played VIP with the Gents last night and thought it was a fun yet competitive mode.
For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?
I discussed this with a comp pilot and we noted a few things:
-In the current rule set, escort ships are expendable
-The only incentive for VIPs to be aggressive is to kill the enemy VIP
-Most of the time VIPs are too busy trying to stay alive against expendable ships
If VIPs score 1 point by killing an escort:
-Escorts are no longer expendable
-It would be more efficient for the VIP to be a kill ship
-This creates a dynamic where action is focused on assisting the VIPs
-In 2v2, a one-sided engagement can potentially be 3-0 (VIP kills VIP, then kills escort)
-Thus, games might end in 2 engagements without giving opponents chance for a comeback
-However, it can also potentially go 2-1, 2-0, 1-1, or 1-0
-Needs testing to see if victory condition needs to be increased
Atruejedi:
--- Quote from: Zanc on May 24, 2016, 06:32:56 pm ---So I played VIP with the Gents last night and thought it was a fun yet competitive mode.
For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?
I discussed this with a comp pilot and we noted a few things:
-In the current rule set, escort ships are expendable
-The only incentive for VIPs to be aggressive is to kill the enemy VIP
-Most of the time VIPs are too busy trying to stay alive against expendable ships
If VIPs score 1 point by killing an escort:
-Escorts are no longer expendable
-It would be more efficient for the VIP to be a kill ship
-This creates a dynamic where action is focused on assisting the VIPs
-In 2v2, a one-sided engagement can potentially be 3-0 (VIP kills VIP, then kills escort)
-Thus, games might end in 2 engagements without giving opponents chance for a comeback
-However, it can also potentially go 2-1, 2-0, 1-1, 1-0, or even 0-0
-Needs testing to see if victory condition needs to be increased
--- End quote ---
I just got done with a VIP dev match in which I was the VIP as a Squid. I cheesed my way out of combat and off the map the entire game. We won 1 to 5 after losing 0 to 1 at the beginning. This map mode is extremely open to abuse so I emailed Muse about it, but then I figured I'd demonstrate. How do I propose we fix it? I'll paste you what I emailed Muse yesterday...
--- Quote ---5. VIP scoring is awful. I tried to help my allies get VIP kills for the beginning of the game, but when I realized they weren't really interested in helping, I just flew around the map the entire game, evading and dodging hwatcha and artemis fire. I lived. I ruined the match purposely by refusing to fight, but I know how to fix it. After countless allied deaths they eventually whittled down and killed the VIP enough for us to win. And that's stupid. We didn't deserve to win. We had no team work. How do you fix it? Easy. EASY.
[This is based on a 3 vs. 3 match]
Make killing the VIP worth 3 points.
Make VIP on VIP kills 5 points. [and please refer to my previous email where I address kill-stealing]
Make killing non-VIP ships worth 1 point.
Set the winning score threshold to 15.
These numbers basically align to your originals, i.e. 5 vanilla VIP deaths will still end the match. But now it won't stalemate because of dicks (like me!). Seriously. Easy. Fixed. Fun. Now I can't avoid the fight for the entire match and still win. I only did it to prove it's going to happen all. The. Time. For 4 vs. 4, you could just change the winning threshold to 20 instead of 15. And I still say get rid of 2 vs. 2 VIP, but you could make that threshold 10. Most people I talked to tonight did not enjoy it***. I mean, it can't hurt keeping it in-game, but the frequency has to be lowered or restricted to custom games. [also, please refer to my previous email about more lobby-creator control in custom matches; Chaos needs to be able to CHOOSE maps and map modes if we're going to keep this fresh; we'd love to have half VIP and half normal matches, but we need to be able to select very specific maps and modes in sequence; please? This benefits everybody! Also, please add names to lobbies again [like the old days] so players know if they've joined a stacked lobby that was opened to the public but is actually a custom lobby.... those bastards).
--- End quote ---
***I wanna point out that I was saying most people didn't seem to like 2 vs. 2 VIP, but it's popping up constantly. People seem to like the larger VIP modes; I love 3 vs. 3 VIP, and 4 vs. 4 would be wicked cool as well, but we've got to address scoring.
Richard LeMoon:
We had a talk about Rabbits (runner/hider VIPs) and what to do about them if it became a large problem. It seems that it can be abused (as expected), but is it worth putting in extra mechanics to prevent the practice of a boring win? What percentage of VIPs will end up rabbiting?
Since VIP, to me, still seems like an arranged honor fight more than a chance encounter, there really should be more of a penalty from running away and hiding. Once again, using capture point mechanic may be feasible. If one team's VIP leaves the capture area (much larger than the current areas) for so long, they give the enemy a point. If both VIPs are MIA, no points are granted.
On the other hand, perhaps a VIP killing an escort might remove a kill rather than gaining a point. Though this would not prevent rabbiting, it would prevent unearned grind wins. Granting a point removal may be too much, though. Perhaps VIP would gain permahull for killing escorts. Once again removing the grind win. The only sure way to prevent rabbits and grind wins would be to make only VIP on VIP kills count, though that sounds a bit miserable to play.
And most certainly remove 2v2 except as a custom lobby option.
KitKatKitty:
--- Quote from: Zanc on May 24, 2016, 06:32:56 pm ---For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?
--- End quote ---
The initial VIP that we created had rules to try to prevent rabbiting, the Sweep Win. Granted, having 2 ways of winning like this was would be a nightmare to create and is understandably why there is a simpler version Muse went with. But having some way to include escorts kills or buff VIP for killing would decrease rabbiting.
--- Quote from: KitKatKitty on March 26, 2015, 10:02:11 pm ---- 2 ways to win: 1) 4 Kills on the enemies VIP ship
OR
2) Sweep Win: The VIP ship kills the enemy VIP two times and the other 2 ships - one time each. Making a total of 4 kills.
--- End quote ---
However, rabbiting can not be completely eliminated. Some people will want to hide and no amount of game mechanics will prevent that. Just like in Death Match, some people just like to run and/or hide. There was quite a bit of discussion on different ways to reduce rabbiting or changes to the Muse VIP found HERE and HERE.
For the majority, I am pleased with this patch and the way they implemented VIP. I agree with Richard on this:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 07:25:26 pm ---And most certainly remove 2v2 except as a custom lobby option.
--- End quote ---
This is something I've recommended a few times...2v2 VIP just doesn't really work well and is why we never would host a 2v2 VIP lobby when hosting these event.
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