Author Topic: 20 second round start timer  (Read 17602 times)

Offline MightyKeb

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20 second round start timer
« on: April 10, 2016, 06:26:06 pm »
This thing used to be great back in blood and brass. With the meta being so aggressive today in comparison to 2 years ago, the casters need some way to be able to announce loadouts with little downtime. The early movements of a team play a huge factor in how an engagement turns out and this feature would make it easier to manage both, in turn making SCS a better and more educational spectator sport. The only real downside is the 60 second timer + 20 seconds when the round starts.


It also lets teams take the time to see where they've spawned to plan their movements before the action and not lose much time agains't a team already picking pace.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 06:31:40 pm by MightyKeb »

Offline Huskarr

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2016, 06:32:22 pm »
+1

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 02:35:35 am »
The only reason for this rule in B&B was to make sure everyone was loaded into the game. That reason is no longer valid due to introduction of 60 seconds timer. I don't see point in that anymore as a player. I don't know about casting though.

Offline TimTim LaBaguette

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 03:57:59 am »
As I said in stream chat, I like that idea.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 05:37:51 am »
The only reason for this rule in B&B was to make sure everyone was loaded into the game. That reason is no longer valid due to introduction of 60 seconds timer. I don't see point in that anymore as a player. I don't know about casting though.

To simplify it:

For players: Compensate for the fact that you cant view the map while loading anymore and take a second to identify your spawn and decide what to do (spawns also play a factor in games)

For casters: Have enough time to announce loadouts before the teams move, then be able to cast the opening moves of a team

I dont think you read my post carefully, it doesnt matter what it was intended for, it had positive side effects and I would like to see those effects used.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 07:27:27 am »
I wouldn't object to this, but it is worth keeping in mind anything which lengthens the SCS, even by a tiny amount, is likely to be unpopular in Asia and Eastern Europe. There were people with work the next day up past midnight yesterday. Before voicing the obvious response, remember that every new addition always just adds 'a little bit' more time. If nothing else I'd announce it somewhere more prominent as a potential rule change before trying it. I also know from experience that this rule is super, super annoying as a pilot and you want to get moving, I think I broke it in the B&B 80% of the time before my crew yelled at me to move back into position. I'm tempted to suggest extending the lobby lock by 30 sec to a minute (so 5:30 countdown, 1 min locked loadouts) and doing the announcing of load-outs in lobby, as uncinematic as that would be.

Doesn't help that some casters like Daniel or Obvious are super polished at running through the load-outs at speed while others of us haven't got the patter down and loadout announcement is going to slow down towards the end of the SCS whatever you do (making up random stuff and building narratives for 2 hours is more mentally taxing than you might think). And whatever happens there are going to be mistakes like on my cast yesterday covering the final where the loadouts were started late as I brought in a co-caster. Still perfect is the primary enemy of good, so something which makes announcing load-outs a smidge less hectic wouldn't hurt. 20s at the start of the match or extra in lobby would both work for me, I think the benefits ought weigh the costs.

As a side note and not wanting to hijack Keb's thread, folks casting and running the SCS have had a hard time getting in casters / refs the past few weeks, my channel is supposed to be the 'oh crap we don't have anyone or someones aunt is in hospital' fallback of last resort. So if there are folks who look at the casters or the refs and think "I'd like to do that" get in touch with Lueosi. I'm happy to give someone the chance to do some cocasting with me, get in the swing of it and help them set up the necessary software and accounts to get a casting rig set up, and the software you need is all open source.

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 09:57:33 am »
I dont think you read my post carefully
Ye, sorry. I was kinda tired. My bad.

Alright. While I don't really care about my spawn position in a match, and generally don't plan anything until first spots will land, I can see that some players prefer to do that. That's fine. But there were already many problems with keeping that rule in B&B because teams usually didn't follow it and pilots simply forgot to not run their engines. For game like GoIo, where every rule is based upon, how I like to call it "gentleman agreement". There is huge mess when people want to introduce anything new. Referees simply have no power to control everything and, they're only volunteers, which spend their precious time to host the only active event in that dying, forgotten by everyone game. And they usually have a lot of stuff to care about already.

Summarizing: It will be a mess to introduce and enforce. KISS - That's my opinion on that. Less rules = better game.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 10:29:16 am »
I dont think you read my post carefully
...

Teams didn't follow it because it was new. Fortunately, we humans possess the ability to adapt to anything. So long as this rule keeps getting enforced and enforced, sooner or later everyone will learn to play with it. So with that out of the way...


At best it's a minor nuisance for the referees - which again can be solved by adapting. A feature that appears at the START of a game, BEFORE the game happens, doesn't interfere with the game. You're comparing it to shoving an extra tool in a toolbox but it's more like adding a lid ontop - doesn't conflict with anything, has practical benefits and the only thing bad about it is that you actually need to open it.

Offline Areus

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 03:43:28 am »
Agreed. 20 seconds isn't much to worry about.

Failing that, casters could stand to simply read out the weapons rather than zooming in on the ship to show them, allowing the camera to keep an eye on ship movement even if the announcers aren't talking about it. If people don't know what an artemis looks like, a closeup of one isn't much use to them anyway, and I have a strong suspicion that the bulk of observers are at least casual players.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 06:00:38 am »
Remember that we have to be able to see the weapons to tell you what they are, often we are zooming in for our benefit as well as yours. Could have a co-caster do all the load out announcements, but that isn't going to help if there isn't one.

Offline Jub Jub

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 08:57:25 am »
Typically I don't do much posting on the forums, but 'ere goes~

While I haven't paid much attention to Guns of Icarus competitively anymore, since the topic here is on the opening pause timer that was used in Blood & Brass, something that I helped design/decide, I just thought I'd throw in my input. The timer was originally, and solely, used to allow as many people as possible to fully load into a match to prevent teams who had bad connection issues from getting quickly rushed by the opposing team, which would result in a handicapped engagement. Something that we did want to avoid however, is restricting teams who used the opening soft-cover of a map to change their positions without being spotted as the clouds rolled away, thus giving them a disadvantage. We picked 20 seconds to be as fair to people loading into the match as possible, while also not trying to screw over teams that liked to use the opening cloud cover to make movements. While that isn't such a big deal on quite a few maps, some of the more open ones like Northern Fords and Battle on the Dunes, the opening few moments could be crucial for a team centered around close range builds. At no time in the brainstorming/decision making process were the casters taken into account. Rules centered around making simple things easier for the caster are silly. Competitive rules, matches, tournaments, etc. should be focused on the teams taking part and the players of those teams, not the various people watching.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 10:15:20 am »
Something that we did want to avoid however, is restricting teams who used the opening soft-cover of a map to change their positions without being spotted as the clouds rolled away, thus giving them a disadvantage. We picked 20 seconds to be as fair to people loading into the match as possible, while also not trying to screw over teams that liked to use the opening cloud cover to make movements. While that isn't such a big deal on quite a few maps, some of the more open ones like Northern Fords and Battle on the Dunes, the opening few moments could be crucial for a team centered around close range builds.

You make a very good point, if this is implemented we'll have to see how much this is impacted and whether it needs to be scaled accordingly. On the other hand...

[/i] Rules centered around making simple things easier for the caster are silly. Competitive rules, matches, tournaments, etc. should be focused on the teams taking part and the players of those teams, not the various people watching.

You're right in that tournaments made for teams should be focused for the teams -as aside from the organizers they're the ones with the highest effort-to-contribution ratio in comparison to anyone else that interacts with it, and if it comes down to it the hardest decisions should be made with teams in mind.

However, this doesn't mean we should neglect the spectators entirely. GOIO at it's core is a very competitive game, to this day I continue to be flabbergasted at the devs' lack of appropriate support to this criminally untapped market that could very well boom this game's population to desired amounts. The "simple" things these casters do sacrifice viewtime for an important portion of the game. What would you say to a feature that provided some small benefit to the teams' experience in exchange for making the casters completely unable to stream most of the action? What's the motivation in continously making big tournaments, when nobody is watching it, and less than half a dozen teams join when you could've attracted 4 times the amount by growing in popularity? Let's not de value the subtle support that spectators provide.


On the other hand, part of the reason I came forth with this idea was not just because it had benefits for the casters and spectators, but also teams aswell. I've already stated some of the team based benefits, but I'll bring back some for the earlier argument:

Assume two teams are planning to rush out of spawn. One team plans assuming they'll spawn in a singular place, but ends up spawning in another. This disorients them for a moment before they're able to formulate a plan of action again in a moment's notice, but all the while, the team that opted to rush with no sense of direction, caution or consideration wins the rushing war, thereby taking more ground and forcing the other team to play defensively.


Now you have 10-20 seconds timer after the game starts. Within 10 ,even 5 seconds, teams can determine where they are, plan their moves and get moving. The team that doesn't use this resource well is the one that is countered and the team that is is the one that controls the early game.

My point is that in this instance, adding the timer would encourage and reward intelligent play and consideration of the map, two skills you already need in competitive play - essentially raising the pilot skill ceiling by a marginal amount, which resonates with my earlier small-benefit-to-experience example, yet without the crushing downsides and infact, an upside for both fronts.


Offline nanoduckling

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 10:49:48 am »
Thanks for the context and insight Jub. As you say, rules geared towards the sole benefit of casters to the detriment of participants would be pretty asinine, at least in deviation from what we currently have. That said lets not kid ourselves here, the SCS casts have order of magnitude 10-40 viewers at peak times, and a very large fraction of that are participants. Its a service for the players with some side benefits as an educational tool, it is not the Yogscast. The brass tacks question here being asked, at least from my perspective, is "do participants reviewing footage benefit more from having available the first 30 seconds of movement when weighed against the disadvantages of these proposed rules". Keb enthusiastically says yes. I'm a qualified yes, bordering on meh. Guras says no. We're talking here like we are wearing a bunch of different hats ('audience member', 'caster', 'organizer', but I think the truth is what you have here are 4 SCS players debating how much benefit that extra 30 seconds of footage is worth to us. The extra hats just colour our judgement a little bit and add a little bit extra weight to our arguments here and there.

Keb I suspect you aren't going to get your way here, but what I might try is changing how introductions are done, using the 30 second lobby lock to give in depth ship details and then providing a quicker summary at the match start to see if that improves the cast (A quick 3 second zoom on each ship with team, pilot and ship summary, "We have the Ryders with a Brawl mobula pilotted by Daniel"). Should shave a few seconds off the intros.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 01:39:03 pm »
Keb I suspect you aren't going to get your way here, but what I might try is changing how introductions are done, using the 30 second lobby lock to give in depth ship details and then providing a quicker summary at the match start to see if that improves the cast (A quick 3 second zoom on each ship with team, pilot and ship summary, "We have the Ryders with a Brawl mobula pilotted by Daniel"). Should shave a few seconds off the intros.

That's an interesting one. If anything I'd like to put all these ideas into a cycle and see how each of them work out before making a judgement. The big flaw in your idea however is that competitive youtube channels like Communityesports have been using the same system for years now, and that is to upload the game footage only with no stream backdrop, as the loadouts are already announced. I think this worked when everybody ran sluggish pyras everywhere or took mercs and camped their own spawn. If your idea is implemented, the current tournament uploaders will have to change their uploading style to include the first 2 minutes of stream or however long it takes to announce the loadouts which, depending on the length, could actually be to the detriment of the spectators on video uploads.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: 20 second round start timer
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 04:05:14 pm »
Hrm, yeah the extra two minutes at the start might not be worth it. The stop gap I suggested wouldn't necessarily have that problem since a quick sweep round the ship will allow folks to visually identify the ships detailed load out while the audio provides a summary description, so the 2 minutes of footage in lobby can be cut off to minimal detriment since you can always just pause and look at the ships if the detailed gun load outs are of interest.