I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...

[Arturo Sanchez]

(most of the rant)

What are trying to tell us? How special and unique you are? You are not. But to actually succeed, you have to know how some things work. And I don't mean rules, I mean actual mechanics.

(by which point I knew what meta was because unlike most scrubs I spent all of my novice time in novice grinding every class-and dont forget it was ALL achieve based so I graduated way later than today's pansy ass standards).

It's not like I was whining about the fact, it took me 100+ matches to earn my 3-3-3, learn basics and practice with a sort of... obvious handicap... and then suddenly with one fucking update I was out of novice, for like - 6 months. But I got over it, which I too suggest.
Though none can deny - how little time novices stay in the novice matches due to the current system, and seeing that they actually advice each other to tick-out the certain checkbox in matchfucker's options - is outrageous. Contrary to some opinions, staying in the fucking novice shows you - if not things you should know - at least things THAT SHOULD NOT FUCKING HAPPEN.

So the only way to maintain the stale mate was kill ships as they got near. Of course we eventually lost since kill points weren't a thing back then.

(which is probably the only fucking thing that should stay the same considering CP rules and mechanics)

1. implying rules and mechanics aren't just synonyms in the context of what you're talking about. They both inform each other and I understood very easily. Why? Because I took a moment to THINK and observe what the game by its design is telling me to do. Its not rocket science to do. But apparently its implying I'm special and unique. If doing a little thinking while inexperienced is such a rare thing, then I guess I'm special.

2. the game has alot to teach by simply taking advantage of what it gives you. Very few take advantage and vets should not be expected to teach what is readily available to learn. And learn away and out of the scrutiny of people that can 5-0 with the least amount of effort. If noobs walk in that kind of arena (withtheir superior numbers) then in this game based on teamwork, the player pool has gone down to idiot levels play.

Is it such a goddamn high priced demand to find mid lvl play on a mid lvl mode? I just want to play the goddamn game. Not play teacher and slack picker upper to idiots who are too dumb to appreciate the effort it takes to keep their piece of crap alive or work to keep the ship from danger while they got their thumbs up their asses doing nothing to save it.

3. the point was the bug existed. Old CK as a game mode was fine. Only lost because the bug in anglean was game breaking. In fact old CK was the tits as it actually required PROPER coordination and tactics as opposed to now. The  only good change to CP is kill points. Anything else is debatable.

[Hoja Lateralus]

@Luharis

These, however, weren't novices, nor where they low to mid level, these were veterans with thousands if not tens of thousands of matches under their belt, throwing hissy fits in text chat and captain's chat.

Firstly, there is a handful of players with player count above 10 000 so saying "tens of thousands of matches" is fucking op.
Secondly, annoying vets? Somehow I think I know what clan they are probably from... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I could just as easily point out that due to the poor behavior of the veterans (I actually think almost all of the vets are awesome.  I really hope this doesn't offend any one) that we should kick them all from captaining because they bully lower level pilots/crew.  This is of course ridiculous, but it uses the very same logic that most experienced players use:  Novices are bad, some people who are bad tend to be arrogant, therefore, all novices are  bad and therefore arrogant. Instead of punishing all because of the errors of the few, we as a community must take it upon ourselves to educate this new addition to our player base.

You have some point, but how about this - if you (I mean you, as a supposedly for-the-sake-of-argument-GOIO-Dev) start pissing off vets (more than usual) then who's going to play your game? The sales crowd that vanishes like a fart on the wind after a month? Or non-existant "middle class" of players with 500-1000 matches played. The answer is - no one. It's reasonable for devs to care for veterans because it's them who makes the game what it is, and they are making the community. Sorry for that outburst, if you think now that I'm an elitist shitlord then so be it.

@Atruejedi
Pretty much agree, I used to plea for devs to increase novice lvl cap but I failed (they did some mathematical work, anyway, for players to lvl slower on lower levels, but that's all I know).
Edit: Not even mentioning that in the old system novice lvl cap was lvl4 with max being 15 (so 26,6%). Now it's lvl8 (or even 7?) with max being 45 (17,8%). WITH FASTER LEVELING!

@FranckM

One of the main problem I had with novices was that they had voice chat off. Would it be possible to just put a small symbol near the name of people who don't have voice chat activated. By this I mean cannot hear me at all, I don't really mind if they don't have a microphone as long as I know if I need to communicate with text chat or voice chat.

Something like "I can't hear you" icon? ;]

@Ceresbane vel Maximillian Jazzhand
A long time ago I suggested a special tutorial for game modes. Since we lack such, the lvl cap would be a nice thing perhaps.

Also, let's not change this thread into Crazy King shitstorm or anything else

[FranckM]

That would be perfect. If anyone here will be at the fireside might bringing it up?

[Arturo Sanchez]

funny thing about that disaster.

Many games simply don't do that. Unreal tournament, cod, mario kart, outrun, etc.

You just pick the mode and you go. Luckily some of those are offline mode and can easily be carried by a single competent player. But regardless, you just picked a mode and then you go. You learn the mode or you lose the game.

I'm really REALLY getting sick of this hand holding culture that just doesn't encourage people to step up and strive to improve. I mean sure fighting games and mobas are toxic, but guess what? Because of the git good or the get out culture. Players that really want to play come out the wood work. And guess what? People talk about the games obsessively. People are salty and get mad and you get funny crap like that. But when out of the game, they talk tech, they talk strats, they talk news and developments and competitions.

What do we get? A bunch of jackasses that join a game to not play the game.

A player takes on the face of the majority. And if the majority and culture is a bunch of slack jawed idiots wanting to "have fun" by being the most incompetent piece of crap ever. People are gonna think thats perfectly normal, and thats TOXIC for this game. It's been poisoning it for the longest time.





So I beg the question. If we really all did become elitist douchebags or rather if we hold the minimal standard to be much greater than what the noobs can currently be in yet see the next step within reach with a little work... would it actually be all that bad? (also this ain't no street fighter son, we  wouldn't be demanding as much as the fighting game community-dat get good climb is HARSH)

[Atruejedi]

I'm really REALLY getting sick of this hand holding culture that just doesn't encourage people to step up and strive to improve.

I would typically agree with you, but this is a TEAM game... and one bad player effects EVERYBODY in the match, not just that new and/or bad player. If this were Mario Kart or Mortal Kombat, I'd say, "Screw you, if you're awful, that's on you. You're only losing for yourself." But Guns of Icarus is nothing like those games. A hand-holding culture is necessary to improve the game for EVERYBODY. You're being selfish, honestly. And that's fine. But don't expect the game to grow or the quality of the player base to rise. We're all in this together. Start acting like it and do some work. Otherwise, don't complain.

[BlackenedPies]

It's been said over and over but I'll say it again. The vast majority of new players cooperate and want to learn. I've gladly played through every sale and the bad players are few and far between. Your first line of defense against these players is in the lobby by telling them their position and giving recommended loadouts. Avoid assigning new players positions without a gun and NEVER play with anyone who refuses a loadout. Typing isn't enough and using a mic is required through every step.

This game isn't hard to learn but it's not intuitive. Run a tight ship and clearly explain what to do. Constantly look around the ship and give feedback. If someone screws up don't worry and explain why. Getting angry makes you look bad and them feel bad. You're the captain and it's your job to run a tight motivated crew.

It's not true that most new players are hopeless because I run every ship with competitive tactics and two buff hammers (one on mobula). Brand new players buff guns better than many vets and every mechanic in the game is dead simple to learn. They'll screw up and you might lose but so what. The true mark of a captain is confidence through defeat

[BlackenedPies]

It's often overlooked but the best ship to train new players is the mobula. It's the most versatile ship in the game and the simplest to repair. Put your trusted engi on the left, the less experienced on the right, and swap out the top gunner position. As captain its easy to see the whole ship and you can quickly call repairs and remind them when to stamina. Its reputation as a hard ship is solely from a captain's perspective who isn't used to the slow turning response. Once you're accustomed to it you'll see why the best mobula pilots don't bring phoenix claw.

A common mistake with new crew is that captains put too many artemis on their mobulas. Artemis is a great gun but it's only effective if you hit components and it kills slowly. It's the least potent explosive gun with 38.3 hull dps. The banshee is a good easy gun that can both disable and kill. It does 61.7 hull dps with 220 armor damage and 350 balloon damage per clip in 3.1 seconds plus a ton of fire. If you want an artemis then an effective loadout is top artemis and bottom light flak. Artemis is used for longer range and then the burst light flak with its huge 121.9 hull dps.

The easiest mid range mobula loadout is hades with left side top banshee bottom gat and right side bottom banshee. The top right gun is exclusively for the gunner and can be a flame or banshee. I switch the bottom right to light flak but banshee is a safe choice. For longer range with hades you can use the artemis-flak left side with bottom right lesmok gat and top right banshee. These two setups are effective for all levels of play. Mobula is the easiest ship for new crew

[nanoduckling]

Blackened, you say your experience with novices is great, I'm glad you are enjoying it, I really am.

If they are so great though, why are you so dead set against running a goldfish with them? If novices are keen to co-operate and want to learn why would bringing a ship where they have minimal shooting duties and can focus on the fundamentals of engineering be a problem? Doesn't being being keen to co-operate mean you put the needs of your team above all else?

If novices are keen to co-operate and want to learn why would they always need to be assigned a gun? Again, doesn't being being keen to co-operate mean you put the needs of your team above all else?

Why would you need to point out that we should avoid players who refuse a loadout? I mean those novices must be rare if you appraisal of them is correct that should hardly bear mentioning, unless you have to do it frequently. If novices are co-operative and keen to learn wouldn't they want the experienced player to teach them the best load-outs?

I can certainly see how your filters might improve the quality of novices you get. If you primarily pilot, remove folks who don't accept loadouts and the folks who wont switch from gunner. But you have a serious sampling bias.

[BlackenedPies]

I don't give new players full repair jobs because they want to shoot a gun. If you tell them no you can't shoot the guns then they'll be disappointed at the least. When you trust them bring a goldfish but don't start with one. Goldfish is viewed as the least fun ship to engi on and if I have to make them full repair then I feel bad. For most players engineering is an acquired taste while shooting is the attraction

There are players who don't want to cooperate and it's usually first apparent in the lobby. I can't tell you why but I can say that it's uncommon. It is common for players to not accept a loadout the first time but after you explain why we need the loadout most players accept it. It's more common for players to leave as soon as I open my mouth to welcome them than it is to repeatedly decline a loadout

I can't comment on players that don't speak English or have sound. They're rare but occur. My point is that if you run a tight ship with clear instructions and make it fun then players will cooperate. It's a sampling bias and it's more reasonable to suggest others should do the same than it is to bash novices as a whole due to the few bad ones who are easily filtered out

[Arturo Sanchez]

I'm really REALLY getting sick of this hand holding culture that just doesn't encourage people to step up and strive to improve.

I would typically agree with you, but this is a TEAM game... and one bad player effects EVERYBODY in the match, not just that new and/or bad player. If this were Mario Kart or Mortal Kombat, I'd say, "Screw you, if you're awful, that's on you. You're only losing for yourself." But Guns of Icarus is nothing like those games. A hand-holding culture is necessary to improve the game for EVERYBODY. You're being selfish, honestly. And that's fine. But don't expect the game to grow or the quality of the player base to rise. We're all in this together. Start acting like it and do some work. Otherwise, don't complain.

I point your point to the MOBA genre and tell me again if hand holding culture is necessary. The game is PVP, by nature the game is get good or gtfo.

Hell team sports in general. No one wants that short fat kid.

[Lu Lu]

Now, I might sound a little naive here, but maybe the problem isn't letting novices pilot (As this thread was originally created to address), the underlying issue here is just a lack knowledge in the new player base.  Forgive me if I'm wrong here (I probably am) but it seems like the argument has gone a little like this:

Novices shouldn't pilot without prior experience

It's not their fault, they just don't know any better, if you teach them, they usually are eager to learn

Even then, some just refuse to learn and are terrible team players

Well those are a minority, we shouldn't let a small group taint the batch

So, they're ruining the online experience and wrecking the game for everyone else

Everyone has to start somewhere, even the best of today's vets were noobs at some point

Well, I  learned really quickly and was a great team player

That's what everyone thinks initially, in truth, we all suck but like to believe we're good

In all honesty, this is what it seems like the entire argument has broken down into 3 main focuses:

A:  Whose job is it to educate these players, the tutorial, experience players, or just in game experience

B:  Do we really need to level lock features and options

C:  Even if these novices are bad, is that really the issue, or is the issue just the sudden surge of them all at once

This is all just my analysis of the situation at hand.  I only posted this because I felt like we were starting to veer off track of the initial discussions of this thread. 

[BlackenedPies]

Now, I might sound a little naive here, but maybe the problem isn't letting novices pilot (As this thread was originally created to address), the underlying issue here is just a lack knowledge in the new player base.  Forgive me if I'm wrong here (I probably am) but it seems like the argument has gone a little like this:

Yes you're on point. First off brand new players shouldn't play their first matches as pilot in pub matches. The only way to prevent this is Muse and they will be opposed to any sort of restrictions. Even the requirement to graduate from novice would probably be too much. That's why I'd propose a low requirement like reaching level 3 or by first piloting in novice matches. Any requirement that sounds remotely restrictive will be rejected by Muse. (For those who are new I'm stating this from the community's experience with Muse)

Having vets teach new players is impractical. The current tutorial isn't enough and I doubt a simple update would change anything. The best learning tools are videos but there are no accessible videos for this game. Search Guns of Icarus on Youtube and you'll find nothing but pubs guessing. There have been past attempts to make tutorials but in my view they're not practical. The best way to make tutorials accessible is to feature them in-game which would require approval from Muse

[Red-Xiii]

I'm really REALLY getting sick of this hand holding culture that just doesn't encourage people to step up and strive to improve.

I would typically agree with you, but this is a TEAM game... and one bad player effects EVERYBODY in the match, not just that new and/or bad player. If this were Mario Kart or Mortal Kombat, I'd say, "Screw you, if you're awful, that's on you. You're only losing for yourself." But Guns of Icarus is nothing like those games. A hand-holding culture is necessary to improve the game for EVERYBODY. You're being selfish, honestly. And that's fine. But don't expect the game to grow or the quality of the player base to rise. We're all in this together. Start acting like it and do some work. Otherwise, don't complain.

I point your point to the MOBA genre and tell me again if hand holding culture is necessary. The game is PVP, by nature the game is get good or gtfo.

Hell team sports in general. No one wants that short fat kid.

This is exactly the problem this thread was started on.  This isnt a moba.  PVP doesnt mean "git gud"  Its just the culture thats been created in other games.  This game should be ABOVE that.  Thats the point.  These statements youre making are toxic.

[Dutch Vanya]

I'm really REALLY getting sick of this hand holding culture that just doesn't encourage people to step up and strive to improve.

I would typically agree with you, but this is a TEAM game... and one bad player effects EVERYBODY in the match, not just that new and/or bad player. If this were Mario Kart or Mortal Kombat, I'd say, "Screw you, if you're awful, that's on you. You're only losing for yourself." But Guns of Icarus is nothing like those games. A hand-holding culture is necessary to improve the game for EVERYBODY. You're being selfish, honestly. And that's fine. But don't expect the game to grow or the quality of the player base to rise. We're all in this together. Start acting like it and do some work. Otherwise, don't complain.

I point your point to the MOBA genre and tell me again if hand holding culture is necessary. The game is PVP, by nature the game is get good or gtfo.

Hell team sports in general. No one wants that short fat kid.

This is exactly the problem this thread was started on.  This isnt a moba.  PVP doesnt mean "git gud"  Its just the culture thats been created in other games.  This game should be ABOVE that.  Thats the point.  These statements youre making are toxic.

Just like every statement maximillion has ever made.

[nanoduckling]

I'll play with the polite short fat kid, I don't want the asshole be they short, tall, fat, thin, adolescent or adult.

Well, I  learned really quickly and was a great team player

I didn't learn quickly and I'm still a bloody awful engineer. I still follow orders though. This isn't about good vs. bad, except maybe for Ceres, who I think everyone can agree (including Ceres) is probably best not put with most novice players. This is about playing a cooperative multiplayer online game cooperatively.