I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...

[Schwalbe]

Script A.I to be able to fly. Introduce reward incentives for playing with bots. Done.

1. Programming AI to move on 2-dimensional plain can be a pain in the ass at times (2 dimensional - actors move only on certain "floor" or however you call the said plain, even in 3D game), and you want them to code AI controlling an entity and progressing it throug 3-DIMENSIONAL SPACE.
#NotGonnaHappen

2. Oh, yeah. I want to see all those players having excuse to tell other players to fuck off off their ship because #IWannaPlayWithBots.

Also, #HashtagsToEmphasiseHowRetardedThisLookInMyEyes.

[Hilary Briss]

The game is on sale this weekend, so we'll be seeing a player bump for a few days. Does Muse have any plans to actually retain any of these novices? It's a revolving door... it honestly blows my mind they have developed no retention strategy.

I did my 5 hour stint today teaching and so on. I shall be doing the same tomorrow and Sunday. Does it make any difference in retaining player numbers.... Not really, maybe a few here and there. I spend more time teaching than stomping. Even scrub crew who join get an investment off me, do this do that, we all know it is par for the course. The only downside is the payback is rarely if ever there.

You can clan them, make them feel really special and so on. But again it makes little to no difference. I can count the number of players that have stayed to play occasionally over the sheer number of players i have taught only for the never to return. That is one heck of a failed investment.

The game is too hard for the snowflakes. When i first started i was told to uninstall amongst other nice insults. Something i never do. Hell my crew can rage quit if teaching them but i wont.

Players level up far too quickly now and have little to show for their levels. Most decent players or veterans always end up carrying the scrub allies. After lets not forget wasting 5-10 minutes explaining to the Snowflakes what a spanner is for in the lobby.

[DJ Logicalia]

The retention rate to obscenely low. I remember Howard posted some stats a while back about play times. If I remember correctly, the average play time was 14hrs which doesn't sound too bad, but then you see that the median play time is something like 3 or 4 hours. The numbers are totally thrown off by vets and their 4 digit play times. The vast (seriously vast) majority of new players play for a bit and then stop playing.

If I'm honest, I think the game is too hard. It has a high skill cap and a high skill floor. It takes so long to learn the game enough to be just good enough to play it correctly. People don't want to stick around unless they have a desire to work at it, and most people just want to play for fun and not bother with all the nuances of GoI, anD then they get crushed and have a bad time, and they never play again. I have no idea how to fix it, but I do believe this is the major problem

[Atruejedi]

The retention rate to obscenely low. I remember Howard posted some stats a while back about play times. If I remember correctly, the average play time was 14hrs which doesn't sound too bad, but then you see that the median play time is something like 3 or 4 hours. The numbers are totally thrown off by vets and their 4 digit play times. The vast (seriously vast) majority of new players play for a bit and then stop playing.

I brought this up today in the dev fireside chat. Howard did indeed state that the "typical" player plays for like 4 hours and then disappears because lots of people decide the game "just isn't for them." He seemed okay with that, which baffled me! The game is great, but he seems to think it's a niche title! I'm sure it IS a niche title, but it's the best damn team game I've ever played! And people ENJOY the rewards of a good match! That's what keeps me coming back!

The problem isn't that the game is too hard or too complicated... though I will concede that there is a high skill ceiling and floor... it's that no one plays it because they don't know how to succeed. If the size of the player base increased, there would be more matches in which new players could experiment and learn the basics and then have better experiences. But therein enters the Catch 22: we need a bigger player base to keep people playing, but we need people to keep playing to expand the player base...

[Solidusbucket]

Script A.I to be able to fly. Introduce reward incentives for playing with bots. Done.

1. Programming AI to move on 2-dimensional plain can be a pain in the ass at times (2 dimensional - actors move only on certain "floor" or however you call the said plain, even in 3D game), and you want them to code AI controlling an entity and progressing it throug 3-DIMENSIONAL SPACE.
#NotGonnaHappen

2. Oh, yeah. I want to see all those players having excuse to tell other players to fuck off off their ship because #IWannaPlayWithBots.

Also, #HashtagsToEmphasiseHowRetardedThisLookInMyEyes.

1. create a point that the a.i float to.

2. it is a bot match. No human players involved. Same thing as practice.

Also, you're a dick.

p.s: please see DCS World for the shear amount of possibilities and hardships that A.I can create in a 3-dimensional space.

[Schwalbe]

Script A.I to be able to fly. Introduce reward incentives for playing with bots. Done.

1. Programming AI to move on 2-dimensional plain can be a pain in the ass at times (2 dimensional - actors move only on certain "floor" or however you call the said plain, even in 3D game), and you want them to code AI controlling an entity and progressing it throug 3-DIMENSIONAL SPACE.
#NotGonnaHappen

2. Oh, yeah. I want to see all those players having excuse to tell other players to fuck off off their ship because #IWannaPlayWithBots.

Also, #HashtagsToEmphasiseHowRetardedThisLookInMyEyes.

1. create a point that the a.i float to.

2. it is a bot match. No human players involved. Same thing as practice.

Also, you're a dick.

p.s: please see DCS World for the shear amount of possibilities and hardships that A.I can create in a 3-dimensional space.

1. ...this is a little bit more difficult than that if you want to make an enjoyable experience.

2. Ok, you've got a point there. I misunderstood the concept, taking back my words.

Also, thank you, I'm trying my best.

p.s: We are talking about two different things. You are talking about how great the concept is, while I do not contradict that - I only say it's a pain in the ass.

PS: Also, what did you expect me to understand from a statement like this:

Script A.I to be able to fly. Introduce reward incentives for playing with bots. Done.

People don't usually own crystal balls nor possess clairvoyance enough to see what do you mean if you do not express it properly. And by properly, I mean: elaborate enough to avoid misunderstanding and general dickery.
Cheers.

[Solidusbucket]

You could have asked for more elaboration if you did not understand.

I do not understand programming. I dont know how hard it would be to do. I do know its been done before. I do know its possible. If tbey can create this entire game im sure they could make semi competent ai to float around.

It does not have to be overly complicated. BF2 had a.i fly. They flew routes and attacked targets. They seemed dynamic because of their response to targets but it was fluff. They just flew a preset pattern and attacked when somethig was there.

You dont realize how much i would personally enjoy bot matches. Sometimes i just wanna practice basic stuff on real targets.

[Schwalbe]

You could have asked for more elaboration if you did not understand.

I did understand what I did understand, that's my point. I didn't even had a clue, that's my only point, sorry if I got too harsh on words. Stuff like this just piss the everliving hell out of me.

I do not understand programming. I dont know how hard it would be to do. I do know its been done before. I do know its possible. If tbey can create this entire game im sure they could make semi competent ai to float around.

No worries, most people don't unless they really have to write some complicated, big chunk of code, which requires to be functional both in terms of doing certain job and - perhaps - possible to reused and understandable, clean for others. I actually don't know how regular AI works in GOI - I presume it's based on path nodes aboard the ship, and list of critical sections (parts/guns) with a heuristic - way of assesing priorities - to choose from when in action.

If that's the case, this not VERY complicated model for AI handling. The only problem is, that's only good in cases where you can simplify a scene to a plain, and that's the case of the ship, because all the path nodes can be placed on the said plain, and when assesing the priorities AI calculates the route to current highest priority using path-nodes, processing only points on plain.

To append it to 3-dimensional task of piloting, you'd probably have to either rewrite it from scratch, if the code is shit, or get a headache reconstructing classes to make it functional - and by that I mean not causing utter mess in existing code. The third option, adding fuckload path nodes for ships is, I presume, out of question.

Notice I mostly speak about algorithms here, I don't know the implementation they have. Also I'm not an expert, I have an experience - to a degree - in simple AI coding and much more in having my ass bitten by messy shitcode (which taught me enough to improve it ever since).

Also, the matter is whether they can allow themselves to invest time, due to aforementioned reasoning, for implementing such AI, because as I said - it might be a real pain in the ass.

It does not have to be overly complicated. BF2 had a.i fly. They flew routes and attacked targets. They seemed dynamic because of their response to targets but it was fluff. They just flew a preset pattern and attacked when somethig was there.

I see. I'm not entirely sure how it would work in skirmish though. This game have... a little different approach.

You dont realize how much i would personally enjoy bot matches. Sometimes i just wanna practice basic stuff on real targets.

Don't assume I don't, would you kindly. Bot matches, and by those I mean - 4 captains in a lobby only, are very enjoyable and are test to your skills. Almost everyone can get away with most atrocious decisions with highly skilled and experienced crew, flying with AIs only may prove a nice challenge.


Sudden realisation: As far as I know they have some sort of flying AI in Alliance... I actually wonder how it works, and if that's possible to implement in skirmish, or is it not possible for whatever reason...

[Hoja Lateralus]

If I'm honest, I think the game is too hard. It has a high skill cap and a high skill floor. It takes so long to learn the game enough to be just good enough to play it correctly. People don't want to stick around unless they have a desire to work at it, and most people just want to play for fun and not bother with all the nuances of GoI, anD then they get crushed and have a bad time, and they never play again. I have no idea how to fix it, but I do believe this is the major problem

You know what other games are hard to get any good? Counter Strike, Dota, Starcraft... You're getting my point?
I've said it before but I can say it again - GOIO is "hard" in a way*, but isn't the problem. The problem is that it can't offer enough for its hardness. GOIO is just not that appealing gameplay-wise. And I'm not even talking like from high horse about the "pro mlg 720 lgbt qwerty" crowd, but even the regular people. Most times when I go back to GOIO I feel I could've been having more fun with other games at that moment.
Also, there is much waiting involved, and I'm not even talking about the lobbies. Let me provide an example:

A) Good design (Rocket League):
I turn on the game
4 seconds of logos
Menu, I press "enter" 3 times and I'm in queue
Usually in match (including loading) within 40-60 sec from desktop.
B) Well... GOIO:
I turn on the game
fucking loader, CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK
logos, ESCAPE ESCAPE ESCAPE ESCAPE ESCAPE
phew, menu, two clicks and in queue
[elevator music]
[lobby time, I don't even mind]
And theeeeeeeeen I have to wait (almost always) a whole minute for map load.
Finally, match.

So yeah, people just get bored. We all hate those "c'mon guyz rdy up m9" kind of guys, BUT THEY DO HAVE A POINT, DON'T THEY?

GOIO has this unique mechanic relying on teamwork and truly being a part of bigger machine. It is unique but I think it doesn't let create good stories. We all know that one damn clutch feeling from CS:GO or that pentakill from LoL, but GOIO don't have any stories to create and/or tell really. "I've managed to hit the hull in the last moment" doesn't count as a story.

Also, just saying "program AI pilots" is so easy, isn't it? But we know how Muse works and we've been through much more important issues with much easier fixes not being dealt with, so we know that this kind of project is not going to happen. Perhaps it 'potentially' could if it was just ready code from Alliance (and there are 'some' kind of ships piloted in some way by AI) to put in Skirmnish, but making that from scratch? Damn, son.

*IMO "hard" isn't the best word, I'd say it's overcomplicated at the beginning, when you are supposed to learn like 8 types of ammo at instant but then you figure that for every weapon there are no choices, just 2-3 types that 'do something'

[Schwalbe]

GOIO has this unique mechanic relying on teamwork and truly being a part of bigger machine. It is unique but I think it doesn't let create good stories. We all know that one damn clutch feeling from CS:GO or that pentakill from LoL, but GOIO don't have any stories to create and/or tell really. "I've managed to hit the hull in the last moment" doesn't count as a story.

Because you are an old, grumpy fuck, my friend.

Although there are rarely any possibilities for GOIO to have such moments, when they finally happen, they're just fucking glorious - I for example still have kind memories for the last match I played before exam campaign, the one against Admiral Obvious and Atruejedi. Or I still remember my first won match as a captain, and how wonderful my crew was. Or moments like kicking some really good captain's arse with bunch of low level guys you trained from the very beginning.

So yeah, I believe it's the matter of perspective, though understandable - the "older" you become in this game, the less glorious things seem to be.


The only stories I had with CS:GO can be encapsulated in two words: "cyka blyat", or "Jebałem twoją matkę", said by some fucking retarded 10 years old cuntfaces. The only match I git gud, and I carried a team, and I was supposed to feel good - I was utterly LIVID. It was PATHETIC.

[Solidusbucket]

This game is labeled as a simulator. That means studying and learning by reading, asking questions, analyzing, and observing. Simulators do not attract huge audiences. That is the reality of it.

[DJ Logicalia]

This game is labeled as a simulator. That means studying and learning by reading, asking questions, analyzing, and observing. Simulators do not attract huge audiences. That is the reality of it.

What? A) I've never seen or heard of GoI being labeled as a simulator, and B. Simulators are pretty popular right now.

Also, what?

[Solidusbucket]

Yea, You're right.

I have no real point. I just try to find excuses why this game has few consistent players. My excuse was the typical "its a niche game" disguised with other words.

[-Anakin-]

There's already AI designed to fly goio ships and it's actively at work in alliance, just sayin'

[MightyKeb]

Here's the problem I see with AI pilots: In alliance, you always have some sort of objective. Deliver this, kill that, etc, and AI spawns and reacts accordingly assuming you attempt to complete these actions, because if you suddenly decide not to then that's an easy win for them.


In skirmish, specifically in deathmatch, you fight to kill specific ships that are alive, conscious and can constantly adapt to new strategies. Anything can happen at anytime and anywhere, and the amount of situations is simply impossible for a human to completely record into an AI's programming. It sounds like a workable option in Crazy King and even useful if AI were given the ability to calculate whether or not they need to go for the point or move on to the next one, but in Skirmish I think the closest one could get to the implementation of AI pilots is to give their ally the ability control them similarly to how you can control AIs with F1-3 and voice commands. You could have them charge at an opponent, sit by in their position, follow you, and some other basic stuff, and the reason why this would work better than the simple idea of AI flying around by themselves in skirmish is because at it's core, the control is still at the player, and the player is an evolving being who is able to evalulate countermeasures to all sorts of situations, it just has to face it once.