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Balance musings

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BlackenedPies:
Moonshine is faster but it's harder to use in combat. Kerosene can be used constantly and repaired with anything.

Moonshine can be repaired with spanner until it has 250 damage and then you mallet. If you repair with just spanner you're losing 28% efficiency because moonshine does double the damage of spanner and 44% more than mallet (67% more than wrench). Wrench isn't enough for the main engine. When your main engine has heavy damage or need to rebuild components then moonshine is not better than kerosene. You end up decelerating with low turning and vulnerable engines. An engine at 50% produces 1/2 thrust and is easy to destroy.

Moonshine is faster but it adds stress and needs attention. With kerosene you have a constant 150% boost at little cost (3/4 moonshine at 1/4 cost). Both have their place and I'm just pointing out why kerosene is the safe choice on goldfish with its spread out repairs.

Dementio:
Just some thoughts:

Is the Mobula OP or are the guns? Is the Galleon strong, but hard to position or are the guns powerful, but none of them have any arcs? The balance of ships revolves a lot around guns too.



Mobula, people thought, was countered by Carronades, which I found to be silly and countered everything that had a Carronade with either two Carronades or even a Mine Launcher, while instant hydro-ing after my balloon is rebuild. The Explosive guns alone will never hit once the armor is down, because vertical mobility. What's left is the shatter damage guns that have limited arc and limited use and are only means to survive the Mobula's superior everything. But then again, a certain Spire loadout (credit to Princess Tutu) used a Carronade (pre-nerf) and Gat/Mortar and I was officially dead everytime that thing started the engagement.

And that is half the game for everything: Starting the engagement. Mobula's have a hard time starting engaments on not so open areas, yes I am purposfully not using the word "maps", because its reaction time is very low when it comes to turning. It has to predict the enemy's position in order to have a chance or it has to bet on survival through vertical mobility, this is why Squids are strong against it. But then again, this is why the Mobula is so strong too, because it is relatively easy to predict your enemy when you have seen him once or not in that specific location, meaning there are only so many ways for them to attack from.

Another thing making the Mobula strong is its kind of high forward acceleration, giving it some serious survival boost and even a good chance of getting into arcs. But without it, it probably wouldn't win any brawl, ever.

If a nerf for the Mobula is in order, I would actually want to see a specific gun slot removed: The one on top of the hull wing. This will severly cripple many multi-range Mobulas, as it would leave the basic Hades (or Merc) and double Art trifecta with only one close range gun in brawls, which might just be a Light Carronade, always. Carronade, double Artemis is still not weak, but kills much slower than my most trusted double Carronade and Artemis combination.

In short: Removing the Mobula's top hull wing gun slot will make loadouts more specialized as sniping platform loadouts will become more vulnerable to brawl, and brawl loadouts more vulnerable to sniping. Multirange loadouts will be left strong in one or the other category, but never more OP than a Spire or Pyramidion could get, anymore.

Nerfing horizontal acceleration I can see as an option, but the other 2D movement stats would have to be balanced around that.

Also, greatest weakness of the Mobula, I still believe, is its engines. Make them easier to be destroyed and you may win fights a lot easier, depending on what you are doing.



The Galleon is strong, because heavy guns usually only need one clip, or less, maybe even only one shot, to do what they need to do. The Galleon is weak, because it has a hard time starting engagements and if it succeeds, chances are the enemy can outmanouver the heavy guns's limited arcs and rotation speed and on top of that, is "easily" disabled and killed by Gat/Mortar.

I would want it buffed, but maybe right now it is as good as it can be, with the other ships being so damn quick and vulnerable too.

Ext and I once talked about how a good buff to it would look like and when mentioning the hull value to survive on buffed and I think normal round, Mortar, the Galleon would never die to disable/control guns like the Carronade, without explosive gun assistance. I honestly almost wouldn't mind that, if it wasn't for your average 4 Hwacha Galleon in pub matches.

A good buff, and I am not joking here, would be reverting the Harpoon back to a state where it actually reeled ships in, for that was the only way a Galleon could quickly and effectively react to quick ships that just casually sit in its blind spot. And it worked, every time, unless it was a Gat/Mortar Pyramidion, because Gatling and Mortar kill everything, regardless.



The Spire experiences a similar issue to the Galleon: Guns are very strong, when used for or against the Spire. It may be more manouverable than the Galleon, but a lot of ships are still more manouverable in one way or another, and that is where it starts to get countered. What's more is that it has more issues than the Galleon, when it faces disable guns like a Carronade, which can stay above it forever with even less effort than against a Galleon, and Hwacha, which threatens to eat its hull everytime even when the armor is at 100%.

I would like to still see a great increase in armor, after all its glass cannon-ness doesn't originate from the stats, but from the design of the ship. Reducing maybe vertical and turning acceleration by a little bit would then balance that.

Basically, siege mode.



And Squids probably have so much hull, because touching anything with exposed armor kills them as quickly as one can blink and thus are extremely vulnerable to Carronades, while also being vulnerable against a little bit of engine disable from Hwacha and Artemis. Thing is though, if you are the Squids target, chances are you will never win! Speed wins and guns are too strong, good game.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: Dementio on November 05, 2015, 07:49:06 pm ---

And Squids probably have so much hull, because touching anything with exposed armor kills them as quickly as one can blink and thus are extremely vulnerable to Carronades, while also being vulnerable against a little bit of engine disable from Hwacha and Artemis. Thing is though, if you are the Squids target, chances are you will never win! Speed wins and guns are too strong, good game.

--- End quote ---


You know the game's changed when we're debating whether squid is OP...


I do agree that 950 is a ridicilous amount of hull. I would like to see squid become an actual hard ship to fly again by taking a hull nerf, and if its too much, give it some sort of mobility buff like turning acceleration to reward pilots even more for flying well with it.

Spud Nick:
When triple artemis Junkers were popular the Goldfish was considered weak and the community wanted it buffed. Shortly after this it became one of the most used ships in competitive play without any changes from Muse. Be brave and try new things.

Fynx:
When I was young blenderfish roamed the skies, being overpowered as they were, and hwachafish was (not exactly rare outside competitive) a thing of beauty, that actually takes some skill to fly.

Things have changed.

Now the hwachafish is slightly overpowered and blenderfish is a rare, beautiful thing.
So since fish is trendy these days everyone's bringing hwachafish whenever possible.

Now, I just wrote that blenderfish is rare. Well, that's not exactly true. You see, it's an excellent disable ship, really nicely balanced (unlike the heavy carronade itself, look at obsolete carro spires and that sad necessity on the starboard of the galleon). But few people actually know how to fly an excellent disable ship such as this. I literally mean few in the entire game.

So, we also have an abundance of blenderfish in Paritan and Canyons, because that's where the kill blenderfish pilots shine (keywords: moonshine, chute vent). Which is also the way that ship should be flown there, sadly.
Most of these pilots are unable to fly it effectively in maps, where blenderfish is an actual disable ship. I am disappointed.

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