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Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker

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BlackenedPies:
I don't think mobula should be turn nerfed. If ya wanna nerf it give it junker speed. Complicated changes wont be implemented.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on September 23, 2015, 10:29:55 pm ---I don't think mobula should be turn nerfed. If ya wanna nerf it give it junker speed. Complicated changes wont be implemented.

--- End quote ---

A vertical god like the mobula should have weak turning, considering it's meant to be weak to flanks and nothing can follow its' hydro. Nerfing the top speed would actually make brawbula worse- there's a reason why junker metas are all long range.

Mean Machine:
I don't remember anyone complaining about mobula when pyra was dominating skies. So mobula back then was fine, but suddenly it's op now? This is a same pattern I see in pretty much every online game, people always have something to complain about and they always want nerfs instead of looking for buffs. Why not look at the ships that are not used a lot and why is that and how we can fix that? Even though I don't really think any ship is OP or underpowered at the moment. I just think that people are simply flying certain ships more so they have more experience with it and thus they perform better with it. For example I can't fly galleon or junker well, not because they are not on par with mobula or whatever, it's simply that I don't fly them often in pugs, so I can't really get the hang of it. I don't trust most of the players I get in pugs to shoot long range guns and engineer on galleon/junker, because it's not as easy as on pyramidion or goldfish, so that's why I rarely fly them and don't have much experience with them.

We have seen some successful galleons, junkers and even spire in competitive, which means it is totally doable, but you just need to put an effort into it. You can't expect to master all ships in same amount of time playing. Most pilots will learn how to fly goldfish properly way faster than galleon for example. Same for the crew. They will learn how to crew fish faster than galleon. So, if you don't see as many successful junkers in competitive as mobulas, that doesn't mean mobula is op. (Sorry Daniel :P)

If you engage in the open and start chasing squid while turning your broadside to hades/arty mobula then ofc its op, because you did a fatal mistake.
Same as if you let squid get behind you or in your blind spot. That doesn't mean any of these ships are op. You just have to think what is the strenght and weakness of each ship and how will you exploit that.

Does anyone think Quad hwacha galleons are op? Yes, I know hwacha is pretty effective now, but if any experienced player thinks quad hwacha galleon is op, then they are nuts.
That didn't stop us in last SCS to get absolutely wrecked by that 4-hwacha galleon. But not because it's op, it was because enemy was smart and chose the right tactics. Squid was baiting and retreating to his ally galleon because they knew we don't have much choice with two short range ships.

Honestly I think that junkers and galleons are very strong ships, but they might be the hardest to master. I think all ships that have good or decent mobility like goldfish, squid, mobula and old pyra are fairly easy to pilot and crew on. Ships with good mobility can position, ambush, retreat, dodge, support, follow, get in combat way easier, while galleon for example needs to be more carefull about positioning, because there is a good chance once he's in combat he won't be going anywhere. You either kill them or they kill you. By "not going anywhere" I mean he can't really retreat if he gets in trouble. Same goes for junker.
Goldfish or squid can often just run away. Don't like engagement? Back off and try again, which ultimately allows for some small mistakes.

So, to sum it up, I believe all ships can perform very well if crew is experienced with it, but not all ships are ideal for eaxh map or against each opponent/builds.
A ship can seem extremly powerful if you let it do what it does the best.

Only balancing thing I agree on would be to increase armor on Spire.

Lieutenant Noir:

--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 23, 2015, 09:53:55 pm ---Increasing angular drag on the mobula alone as a way to reduce its maximum turn speed. Its neater than changing the engine stats which would change acceleration and linear movement as well.

I'm not aware of a way to see the drag stats for ships, i may be wrong about the way things work and turn speed etc are arbitrary but i think the speed, acceleration etc stats that are visible are derived from engine thrust, engine position, drag and mass.

--- End quote ---

Okay, I've been looking through the wiki and previous old forum posts from the old forum for stats on Ship specific Drag stats.
I've also been looking at the very first update patches.
Are you making this up?
or are you suggesting adding increased drag specifically for one ship? Cause I would honestly think it would be simpler to change it's Max turn speed if you were going to nerf it.

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--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on September 23, 2015, 10:29:55 pm ---I don't think mobula should be turn nerfed. If ya wanna nerf it give it junker speed. Complicated changes wont be implemented.

--- End quote ---

-I did kinda think about decreasing it's top speed originally to make it more like a turret, but I think the Spire should have that kind of turret role.
-I really liked Byron's post about switching the stats of the Spire and Junker because the way the Spire is designed with so much exposed armor and open platforms for increased situational awareness makes it a pretty good turret. It also has the firepower to make up for its weaknesses in exposed components. You would decrease the ability of chasing that Brawl Spires have but make the ship more able to tank as well as encourage more gun shooting/less repairing.
-The Mobula has a big balloon at the bottom that hides components. The Balloon at the bottom also works against the upward arcs of the Carronades as well as projectile drop of Lumberjacks. I don't think a turret should have these kinds of advantages.
-Not to mention, the Mobula features many claustrophobic compartments which decrease situational awareness when firing guns.
-I believe a turret should be vulnerable on all angles while having high armor, firepower, reactivity, and situational awareness to make up for it's lack of top Speed and vulnerability.

-Also a decrease in top speed would decrease its advantages in controlling distances. I think this advantage is what gives the Mobula its greatest strengths in Multi-range engagements because you can better control the types of guns (be it long or short range) you want fired as well as keep them firing because they'll still be in arcs.
-While you could argue a decrease in turn speed would do this even more, only certain ships have capabilities in circling the Mobula (Junker, Squid, Goldfish). The rest mostly rely on more firepower, ambushing and killing the Mobula before it can get arcs with its high turn speed, or hoping that the Mobula is in a position to get surrounded/Flanked.

-I think the forward facing guns, the forward mobility, and tunnel vision design of the ship should play towards the ship's strengths in controlling distances. I think the key to flying a ship like the Mobula should be to always have multiple enemies in front of the ship to avoid being flanked due to slow turn speed. When I used to fly a MinePyra (before the Nerf) and I was being double teamed, I would always fly to have close range capabilities with mines and long range capabilities with an Artemis on both enemies to avoid getting surrounded. I didn't turn once, I just relied on always being in a position to have the guns in arcs by backing up.

-I think the current Mobula is too forgiving in positions where it is being Flanked or surrounded and I think Pilots should be more punished for carelessly being in those scenarios considering you have guns at the Front where you can directly control distance.

Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 24, 2015, 06:59:50 am ---
--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 23, 2015, 09:53:55 pm ---Increasing angular drag on the mobula alone as a way to reduce its maximum turn speed. Its neater than changing the engine stats which would change acceleration and linear movement as well.

I'm not aware of a way to see the drag stats for ships, i may be wrong about the way things work and turn speed etc are arbitrary but i think the speed, acceleration etc stats that are visible are derived from engine thrust, engine position, drag and mass.

--- End quote ---

Okay, I've been looking through the wiki and previous old forum posts from the old forum for stats on Ship specific Drag stats.
I've also been looking at the very first update patches.
Are you making this up?
or are you suggesting adding increased drag specifically for one ship? Cause I would honestly think it would be simpler to change it's Max turn speed if you were going to nerf it.

--- End quote ---

I'm assuming on the basis of the helm tools that claim to change drag that it exists as a stat in its own right. It makes sense in a way since having maximum turning speed etc set directly still leaves a need for a stat to determine how the ship acts when drifting, hit by a harpoon etc whereas a ship with mass and drag can react to force from engines, minotaurs, rams etc according to the same rules for all of them.

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