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Newbluud:

--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 14, 2015, 01:57:41 pm ---I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

--- End quote ---

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

Arturo Sanchez:

--- Quote from: Newbluud on September 14, 2015, 06:30:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 14, 2015, 01:57:41 pm ---I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

--- End quote ---

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

--- End quote ---

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 15, 2015, 04:19:36 am ---
--- Quote from: Newbluud on September 14, 2015, 06:30:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 14, 2015, 01:57:41 pm ---I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

--- End quote ---

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

--- End quote ---

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

--- End quote ---

First of all, we're talking tactics here. At any point a viable strategy can arise from what New described above.


And secondly, this is about AI magically seeing you through clouds. I don't care if you shouldn't be doing X and X, they are not supposed to do that and that's basically /thread.

Daft Loon:
The AI cloud shooting is partly unfixable without massive improvements to the client-server cloud disconnect since the AI will always shoot through the 'cosmetic' clouds that block sight for players but not spotting (if you suspect and spam-click the clouds).

Arturo Sanchez:

--- Quote from: MightyKeb on September 15, 2015, 05:35:27 am ---
--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 15, 2015, 04:19:36 am ---
--- Quote from: Newbluud on September 14, 2015, 06:30:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Maximillian Jazzhand on September 14, 2015, 01:57:41 pm ---I've never seen a successful ambush that's so slow that the few seconds of being shot stops it dead in its tracks.


Ambushes involve kero, ram and losing of arcs and completely out of control of ambushee to counter unless countered by setting up their own trap (common AI clan tactic is something we like to call tag eight).
By the time a target has reached 500m of you, the ambush is already in motion.

and if that "ambush" is in direct arcs of the ship's primary guns (AI dont shoot targets not in arc), then that my boy is called an idiot calling his suicide an "ambush."

--- End quote ---

I disagree. With proper communication, it's often a good idea to keep within the clouds, allow the enemies to be weakened or turned away from you by your ally, prior to you going all out stamina+kero+fire at will. Thing is, you position up, your ally has to distract etc, but your flanking position is already given away by the AI firing gat at a ship that is invisible to all human players. I'm not talking about charging into the main arcs of a ship willy-nilly. Don't patronise me to think that I'm that stupid. It's a case of being disallowed to bide your time within a cloud waiting for the opportune moment as enemies turn to focus your ally as they commit. 

Ambush vs people that camp pipes is one where this is valid. Especially when running kill squid, my current favourite ship to fly, there's that element of being selective with my engagements and disengagements. A good ambush can be started and finished with a very small distance compared to the more sluggish ships. I've had AI crew ruin this by tipping the enemy off to our position prior to our engagement. This means my ally's commitment becomes an obvious ploy to get me the kite+kill and the entire set up was pointless, thus I can be suppressed and the campers get to camp away.

It's a tiny thing, but it's happened a couple of times. It's enough to annoy me when it happens, but not enough to be game breaking. As said before, real matches don't have AIs as part of them.

--- End quote ---

You either initiate an ambush or you don't.

You bide your time from a safe distance (way out of range), but if you are in effective range you have two choices, run or commit.

I'm more of a goldfish pilot than a squid pilot but the principles are similar. You move out of enemy arc and blast away to either make a pilot turn your direction or be seen in plain sight to kite them into a waiting ally (or immobilise them for the kill, but thats more a goldfish tactic since puny squids are puny). Shooting them while hiding in a cloud is either done as a sniper ship hiding 1km away or at the very LEAST 500+m away. Or you're a mobile ship in transition to position into blind spot of a less mobile ship, whereupon hiding in said cover in effective range is a moot point as you have the speed to rapidly get out of arc by rapidly retreat or flying straight by the enemy ship. And in either action you wouldn't be shot that badly before you get into blind spot giving you time to recover.

Whatever the case by the time you're in effective range you're already committed into combat because any vet worth their title knows to not let you escape unscathed and won't be that easily tricked when you're hiding in plain sight using clouds as cover while in effective arcs and range of the guns.

Don't just hide in clouds assuming you won't be seen and shot. None of us here are dumb enough to fall for such a flimsy trick.


when given a choice of approaching the front while in clouds or in plain sight from the rear. The latter is much safer in the first place.

--- End quote ---

First of all, we're talking tactics here. At any point a viable strategy can arise from what New described above.


And secondly, this is about AI magically seeing you through clouds. I don't care if you shouldn't be doing X and X, they are not supposed to do that and that's basically /thread.

--- End quote ---

charging from the front with a ship that isn't meant to do it isn't a "tactic." Nothing new will come of it besides what scrubs have always provided, free kills.

and tactics and strategy are two different things.


In the long run it balances out. AI can't hit for crap at 500m. They don't shoot at all at 500+. At 200 they can actually hit a hull. By which point an "ambush" should have started at 300. And with kero the "ambushing" ship can reach a blind spot in less than 8 seconds (barely enough to break a hull with gat).


If you die in 8 seconds, then your ship is a failure. The whole cloud aimbot crap is entirely a pointless talking point.

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