Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode

[Lueosi]

Hunter's suggestion made me think of an external tool we could use for advanced pick systems. Do you know of any existent pick/ban web solutions not bound to any particular game?

What we would need: pw authentication for team captains (no signup), live updates (draft system is publicly visible and immediately updates when changes are made), customizable system or code access, web space maybe

[Kamoba]

Hunter's suggestion made me think of an external tool we could use for advanced pick systems. Do you know of any existent pick/ban web solutions not bound to any particular game?

What we would need: pw authentication for team captains (no signup), live updates (draft system is publicly visible and immediately updates when changes are made), customizable system or code access, web space maybe

Still trying to find something that fits the bill, but most the stuff I find has only been bracket generators (similar to challonge which is already used for scs)

Though in theory..
Perhaps using something similar to Shivtr.com or Shivtr itself to create a tournament page and forums, using the tools it offers to make something like this...
The home page becomes the webspace, and it is very versatile in its arrangements, just use it for organisation rather than guild hub.. Just a thought.

[Dementio]

External software might be a turn off for people, including people new to the competitive scene, so watch out. There would probably be less turn off for actual big tournaments that want blind pick too.

[Hunter.]

As I said Lue, I wouldn't mind spending a few hours making a Google form with the required criteria for a solution. All I need to know is how detailed you want the form to be. Do you want it to include crew layouts or just ship loadouts?

[Thomas]

Isn't that just a more complicated version of PMing the ref your loadout?

What benefits does this offer over PMing the ref?

How much time is it expected to be used between matches filling this thing out?


Some potential benefits is not having to keep track of refs, which isn't really an issue when they're the ones PMing you the match password. Wait for that then respond with your loadout. Then it's just easier on the ref since they have a reference sheet instead of trying to scroll up in the chat or quickly writing down particular builds. The consistent format would make it easier as well if it includes gun loadouts.

It's going to frustrate a lot of people who just want to play the game and don't want to deal with this kind of thing. Will make new teams less likely to be interested. Might actually take more time between matches to navigate to the form, fill it out, and hop back in.

[Hunter.]

Pros: feels more professional, makes it feel like a "real esport"
Referee inboxes in game can be cluttered due to lots of messages and a "not so robust" messaging system, this removes steam friending from the duties of a ref and allows this organisation to be done from a single link available to all as opposed to having to friend each ref.

Cons: We have to make the form
Filling a form online from a link is more hassle than friending referees for newer players?

Will fix formatting when I get back to my PC, hope it is readable!

[Urz]

The Sky Tournament which I ran over two years ago used Google Forms for blind picks.

I've included some screenshots:
https://i.imgur.com/Ltt4FBF.png
https://i.imgur.com/T7o9xCB.png

I'm of a similar opinion to what Thomas wrote above, in that I'm not sure it would be more efficient or is suitable for the purposes of SCS.

[Lueosi]

I was looking into the Google Forms idea myself and played a little bit around with it. It definitely puts a lot of organizational stuff away from the referees at cost of slightly more interaction of teams. But what I was missing (maybe I didn't find) was the possibility to view live results after the pick stages (and not earlier).

Also I asked the mods to update this topic with a new ruleset for this week's SCS. Since that hasn't happened so far, here is the text template (forum syntax maybe hard to read). Basically as I said before: two stage pick this week (still optional)

[DJ Logicalia]

As a regular point of contact for a regular team, I'd be willing to fill out a Google doc if its what is going to work best for the SCS

[Hunter.]

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_1VwCLXP1-c6DTjulsSSlElcfpJoXlzWpdKGX0bgHEo/viewform?c=0&w=1

Well here is the alpha version of my form, not too complex to fill out quick but shows a full loadout to the ref which is saved and viewable. Also easy to update between weeks to clear the database.

(also reminded me that next week is SCS #69.. get it? 69? teehee)

[Ayetach]

Updated the OP at posters request.

[ZnC]

This is just my opinion, but if the SCS organizers intend to implement 2-stage blind pick, I think it is fine to have it on by default. However, if one team doesn't want to do it, we go back to normal lobby rules.

MightyKeb has brought up a good point that teams shouldn't be forced out of their comfort zone. I think in the end SCS should also be fun and fair for teams who practice one or two builds/styles strongly.

Today's matches were pretty fun to watch, a lot of action and variety.

[BlackenedPies]

I agree

[MightyKeb]

MightyKeb has brought up a good point that teams shouldn't be forced out of their comfort zone. I think in the end SCS should also be fun and fair for teams who practice one or two builds/styles strongly.

This pretty much. Take Predators for instance. From what we've shown so far we love to fly split and fly dangerous. Our first match forced us to adapt to the blindpicks and we tried to do a very loose imitation of gents. Our second match was slow and suspenseful, which we might not have let happen otherwise and on our third match we were so cornered with our options that we took one of the worst ships for our playstyle, the Galleon, while I pretended we were flying the same way as we did before and we ended up getting outplayed. If a team likes to fly a certain way, it should be encouraged for them to master that playstyle. From what I'm seeing there are two extremes in competitive: Playing hardcounters of icarus, and outplaying the enemy through teamwork with well practiced ship builds. The idea of blindpicks seems to be to supress hardcounters of icarus, but in the proccess it just happens to cripple master-of-one teams, which I think are essential to competitive as they add a lot of variety in concept among with several other benefits. In conclusion I just think if the other team doesnt agree it shouldnt be done. The thing that bothered me the most about this scs was that none of the blindpicks were under our control, I much prefer to lose when I have the control and responsibility than to win by a coin toss thanks to blindpicks.

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

I think blind pick is pointless if one team can force it off.  The whole point of it is to prevent the lobby switching and allow a fair ground for both teams to select ships.  The random map selection affects flying split and dangerous more than any ships your opponent takes, and it has not been considered for switching.  Having the option to veto it by a team essentially means going back to lobby switching over again.  We need some sort of structured pick system and having none just doesn't seem like a good option.