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Minor Squid Buffs

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BlackenedPies:
Fix the hull so players don't get stuck. Slightly increase turn acceleration.

Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on July 23, 2015, 07:07:47 am ---...

--- End quote ---
Fair points and more or less why i only suggested 10 degrees though its a fair argument for 0.
Wasn't around to see the old light flak but i can agree that its in a fairly marginal niche these days.

Dementio:
All of the game's unique features like guns and ships are unique, because of their niche-ness in application.

Lowering the engines would make it easier to engineer and survive on a Squid, which is often said to rely purely on its speed. Considering the massive use of Hwacha and Artemis, which will probably not decrease any time soon, I would say it is a fair buff.

The hull, I think, used to be directly next to the stairs at the spot where people now get stuck at when they want to go up. It was moved forward, away from the stairs so the hull isn't to close the opening on the side anymore. That was done, because when you went towards the hull from the helm you could repair/rebuild it from outside. Repairing stuff and mounting guns from below is one thing, but apparantly Muse doesn't like it when you can ignore physical objects in the way.

Rotating the Squid's side gun for a better bifecta has been discussed on the Forum before, in this thread if anybody is interested: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2129.msg36694.html
Although that thread is old, the basic arguments still apply for today's Squid.
I like to say "Mobula OP" and I believe a Squid to be its best counter. If the side gun was angled more forward then I would change my mind.

By the way, if you don't like the Banshee on your Squid, a Light Flak inside arming time still does a decent amount of damage. If you are skilled enough you can happily sit outside arming time range and kill ships for your team. Sometimes people forget, but you don't always have to be within touching distance to do damage.



An offtopic opinion to what Gilder posted:
If you want the old Light Flack on your ship then use the Banshee. If the Light Flack didn't have arming time it would make Mortar and Banshee redundant. In the old times the Gatling's range was much larger and with the old heavy clip you would be guaranteed to hit with it. If we still had the guns of the old times then there would be even less variaty in ship loadouts than in today's competitive scene. Gatling and Flak would rule every range when it comes to killing ships.
Long range is overrated anyway. Most engagement don't even start above 1km and close range always wins, so the mid-ranged Light Flak has to deal with problems similar to any other long range gun in the game and in practise often doesn't get sniped until it is in a range where it could fulfill its purpose to its maximum potential.

BlackenedPies:
I wonder if the top engine repair hit boxes could be extended slightly downwards rather than physically changing position.

I think the light flak is ok. Mortar does 126 hull dmg and 126 dps while flak does 112 dmg and 118 dps. Damage could be shifted from secondary to primary for example from 50-30 to 60-20, but it serves its purpose well enough and I don't think shifting damage or changing arm range is necessary.

Heatsink is great on light flak and is similar to burst in terms of dmg. Burst is -15% rof +20% clip while heatsink is -17% dmg +20% clip (due to rounding). I think the problem with the light flak is its limited range being only 1k. It could use an extra 200m.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Gat/flak only ruled until people learned Gat/mort. Before then mortar was rarely used because it was deemed difficult to use. Heck I flew during that time and often used flak over mortar because newer players couldn't hit the broadside of a Galleon even if it was right in front of them. The best time for both builds was when Muse had them both balanced. Believe this was in 1.3. Think early to mid 1.3. Later in 1.3 Muse added arming timer and ruined the gun in favor of providing an ultra niche gameplay that some in the community were pushing.

Remember, Flak also had spread. This is why Heavy Clip became meta. Using HC with Gat/Flak was necessary. But it could be beaten with mortar. During this time all 3 guns had meaning and purpose. Mortar was more in your face and deadly. Flak was faster with more finesse. Banshee on the other hand was the bastard child that would bounce between decent and crappy constantly.

Teams used Gat/Flak, Gat/Mort, quite often. Banshee was the only gun people didn't really use much in competitive since it was more of a long range flamer thrower than it was a killing weapon.

So your argument about them being redundant if LF had arming removed is not based on any historical evidence. In fact I flew during competitive when flak and mortar were both on par and while everyone flew mortar, I flew flak still. There were teams who flew Gat/Mort and teams who flew Gat/Flak. I won with it over Mortar because flak was more optimal with evasive pilot styles where you needed more accuracy on a ship that rarely stood still. Because it could hit past mortar range and gat had a longer range back then, it could effectively tear up a charging vessel before it got it's mortars to bear. Something that Hades/Flak struggles to do.

Long range play was only really good in the merc days or the art buff days. That was when 1-2k+ engages happened frequently and you just could not approach anyone. This was largely due to 1.2's huge slow down effects. Ships just were not fast enough to attack a sniper before being torn up. To fix this, Muse again employed a roundabout gun nerfing regime which set them in a year+ long constant balancing battle. Instead of rebalancing the ships, Muse messed with weapons which brought about more balance problems on top of other problems.

Current Banshee on squids is viable but I honestly am more prone to use LF, even with arming, than I am Banshee. Simply because Squid pilots who sit still too long, become dead squids. I'd rather unload 4-5 shots of LF than unload 8+ of Shee. Simply because LF is faster and can exploit armor drops better. You aren't going to beat Goldfish or Squids with mortar or Shee unless their crews are braindead. Time to kill a goldfish with a gat/mort squid is often about 4+ armor break passes if they are tanking. Sure if they aren't tanking and you catch them you can bring it down in 1-2. Banshee is can be even more. In fact with banshee you are likely to not even hit all your shots before armor is back so you are doing even less damage than mortar. Both mortar and shee, even with greased, fire too slow for quick rebuild ships. Banshee only has an advantage in lack of travel time on shots. Mortar has the dmg output. So if you score 2-3 mortar hits before armor up, it'll often be better than scoring numerous shee hits.

LF was the balance between these both. It traded dmg for accuracy and attack speed. Mortar captains would often scoff at it, but they couldn't forget about it like they could the banshee. You could be very consistent with getting a majority of hits to strike and on time too before armor goes back up. It had it's role, and as Mortar gained recognition, LF became more popular with ships that didn't have the luxury of sitting there bombing a target to death.

Ideally what I'd like to see is banshee return to being the more range weapon, mortar remain CQC, and flak slot back into that space between. Hades play wouldn't be affected too much as you rarely see hades/flak kills out past 500m anyways. Either that or Muse needs to invent a new gun to fill in the old LF's role. Which is what I suggested since they don't seem interested in going back on arming timers anytime soon.

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