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Double Gunner Meta: How bad would it be?

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Daft Loon:
By way of clarification the novice double gunner thing was mostly just a point of reference, the main inspiration being that I think I (and hopefully 1 or 2 other people) would have more fun with these changes.

What im aiming for:

Make most gunning roles use the gunner class. I think it's more fun to gun as a gunner.

Make a second gunning role viable in more cases/on more ships.

Have the main engineer run around like a madman.
Yes that is more or less the intended effect because i think headlesschickengineer would be more fun then the current main engineer. Simply by virtue of not having time to get bored.

From all my experience (even excluding complete novices) the popularity of engineer for its effects is far greater than the popularity of engineer to actually play as and this is a problem. If we can change this while making the game more fun for the remaining engineer (which i think is possible), rather than making no one want to be the engineer, I think it would be worth doing. If you think not enough people would want to be gunner or that solo engineer would inevitably be terrible to the point no-one wanted to do it that is very much what needs discussion here.

Pipe wrench vs extra slot:
Thinking about it this seems to reduce to "should gunner have access to spanner-mallet", which i dont think they should, it would make them too good at repairs.
The effect on engineer would be minimal - free spanner/extinguisher for buffkit, free (mostly useless) wrench for main.
The effect on pilot probably doesn't matter.
It could be just for gunner but the point is to try sell it to muse as the equivalent of normal ammo.

I think the option of wrench + probably anything but mallet for gunner would:
A- Make for very interesting loadout choices.
B- Give us something to bash the "cod 360 no scoper kids" with. Gunners who know when to pile on to repairs and rebuilds (or at least keep thier own gun up) would become a huge advantage.
C- Take a little bit of the pressure off the headlesschickengineer without reverting the game straight back to triple engineer with 2 of them happening to be called gunner.

Kamoba:
Game balance wise, yes I do like the idea, and can think of builds that would benefit from it..
My problem is not with the suggestion, but with the frame of mind of many players...

But Daft you're right, there is a a train if thought where people don't like to take engineer because they assume they have to repair, thus they like to play gunner as they feel the role allows them to shoot more..

Gunners need a little more love but honestly I have had so many bad experiences, regardless of how nicely and how genuinely I explain to the players, it still ends up the same. So that's why I'm not backing down on the fact, its a great idea, but the majority of arseholes would make it so damn painful that too big a mechanic change would only make it worse...

Last night for example against two Dagz ships with a low level pilot as my ally, I had two guys refusing to even consider engineer, one outright ignored me and the other insulted me, but I wanted to play with the Dagz lobby, so I loaded up a ship with guns that require gunners, an all mine mobula.
They didn't even shoot the guns when needed, the one engineer was the first to leave when he got sick to death of being the only one even trying to repair as the two idiots ignored repairs and one even claimed "I'm a gunner I don't fix stuff cos I'm better than that" my reply obviously to remind him that he was shooting like shit so he has no right to say he is better than anyone.. By the third death our ally rage quit after realising the reason I was explaining inability to help was that I had two trolls on my ship.
Five nill and one of the two gunners left with some comments about how my ship was crap and how I'm a whole lot of words.
The other gunner went engineer and stayed in the lobby with us, two matches later me and him have a gunner and a second gunner joins, the first thing he says "Oh god not double gunner again!"
So at least one of two trolls learnt from it..

But this is a daily thing for me if I don't play with friends, the sheer volume of idiots is immense. I want gunner to get more love, IF the player base were to be more aware.
Otherwise I'd stop playing with random crews, which in turn stops me, as a CA teaching newer players.
Not something I want to give up too soon, because despite the volume of trolls and idiots, the rare gems should be sought out and embraced.


Gunner needs more balance, but the internet and people on the internet need to be fixed first.

Daft Loon:
I can understand that pain and I'm wondering if i have to agree that this would make it worse.

On the one hand they would see say 1/4 or more of ships taking double gunners and be more likely to want to do so themselves, they wouldn't see that the gunners on those ships were fulfilling their small but important repairing roles as well as shooting and would likely not do so themselves.
They would also likely not make much use of the buffed gunner abilities.

On the other hand there is the question of whether its just the same sort of people who won't get any better/worse or more/less numerous whatever happens. Additionally it would make it marginally easier for the remaining engineer to cope and the second gunner tool might make it easier to persuade that gunner has some repairs to do (admittedly this somewhat contradicts the first point).

Its a question of whether "You are gunner, you can mostly shoot but you have to do some repairs or the engineer can't cope" will be harder or easier to sell than "Two of you are gunner, one of you needs to swap because one engineer alone can't cope, you can still shoot sometimes as engineer" ('shoot sometimes' can be 'mostly shoot' on some builds which can help a bit), admittedly the second has the advantage of being somewhat easier to do in the initial lobby while explaining repairs as gunner might have to be done in game which is harder. I'm not sure of the answer.

On a related note have muse definitively objected to giving the captains control of the classes their crew take? (the inclusion of the no button for load-out recommendations shows they wont give that much power but just class not load-out maybe?) It wouldn't help explain repairing if you wanted to take double gunner unfortunately. Ideally I'd want to see the current recommended load-out setup UI with options to lock slots to class and make recommendations visible (so people can see it before you have to send it), I'd probably want more saved load-out sets to go with that since i currently have mine as 1 load-out for 2 engineers and 2 options for the 1 gunner in several cases.



edit: A possible problem (or solution I don't know) with the idea is that the pyramidion would get all the benefit of the gunning buffs and almost none from the engineering buff and become rather more of a glass cannon.

Kamoba:
Muse have said that recommended is as far as they'll go, giving captains the ability to force loadout could cause too many issues, especially if you think of the people who take offence at Rec-loadouts...  :-\

Obviously if the gunner was changed, then potentially it could be less painful to have double gunners, but only as much as triple engineer proves more useful, to crews who know what they're doing...

So changing the mechanics to such a large extent i still think not good...
Because unfortunately there are people who think if they're gunner, they should not be subject to the "inferior" job of repairs, and these people are not rare...

Replaceable:
I haven't been in this forums for a while, and lo and behold people are still whining about gunners....


Great.

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