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Double Gunner Meta: How bad would it be?
Daft Loon:
A frequent objection to gunner buffs is that it would encourage - particularly among new players - taking double gunner. But what if we made this a feature not a bug?
In part this is inspired by a (somewhat) recent match i played on a double gunner flak-fish (using stamina to get bifecta with the Gatling), I was the engineer and strangely enough it was great fun, more so than being engineer on a standard goldfish. Of course it would have been a different story if we had tried that vs more ruthless opponents but: what if the balance was changed to avoid that situation of hopeless futility. I think that done right a double gunner meta could make both gunner and engineer more fun.
How it might happen:
Buff gunner stamina, reload rate (to 30/40% maybe) and regeneration.
Buff engineer stamina, activation delay (reducing the time between key-press and the effect starting), regeneration and maybe ladder climbing speed.
Add a gun/engine rebuild bonus to engineer stamina.
Add pipe-wrench as default, free tool for all classes.
Nerf buff-kit in any one of several ways. (when used on guns)
Flat buff/nerf to damage/repairs/specific damage types if needed to restore balance. ex if it makes everything die too fast nerf damage 5% across the board.
I can see this causing a few new problems:
How to crew the mobula?
New players taking a while to learn how often/much gunners need to assist in repairs.
People flying 2 gunner fish and failing to attempt the bifecta.
Making everything a glass cannon (requiring the widespread buffs/nerfs above)
And some interesting secondary effects:
The load-out choices for both classes would become a big question that would need answers.
Triple gunner might be viable in some cases.
New weapon combinations in some places with the extra stamina arcs. (forward facing 3x Hades mobula anyone?)
Thoughts, additions, scathing criticism?
Daft Loon:
--- Quote from: Daft Loon on July 05, 2015, 10:53:27 pm ---How it might happen:
Buff gunner stamina, reload rate (to 30/40% maybe) and regeneration.
Buff engineer stamina, activation delay (reducing the time between key-press and the effect starting), regeneration and maybe ladder climbing speed.
Add a gun/engine rebuild bonus to engineer stamina.
Add pipe-wrench as default, free tool for all classes.
Nerf buff-kit in any one of several ways. (when used on guns)
Flat buff/nerf to damage/repairs/specific damage types if needed to restore balance. ex if it makes everything die too fast nerf damage 5% across the board.
--- End quote ---
Edit timed out
Less specifically:
Buff gunner
Buff engineer in a way tailored to solo engineering a ship
so we don't get too carried away with that bit
Kamoba:
Loon, I've always liked your train of thought.
This idea, though, I don't think.is required...
What you're asking for is basically the developers to modify the game to give the role of gungineer (buff hammer engineer) to a gunner and to buff the engineer be able to run around like a headless chicken non-stop.
Either that or repairs would become so broken engineers.would infact be more powerful and double engineer would still hold trumps...
But yeah I like the thinking, but why should more work be put on a small dev team.to cater for the mentality of the newer player base, which very often is not the long term platerbase, as the ones who do force themselves as "gunners only bruh cos.fuck you!" (which is where the problem lies) are the ones who often leave after a short time.
Which leads me to, the issue is not in the game, but in the games marketing and point of sale.
It still sells to FPS gamers, and uses YouTubers who have FPS followings...
MightyKeb:
--- Quote from: Kamoba on July 06, 2015, 07:15:01 am ---
But yeah I like the thinking, but why should more work be put on a small dev team.to cater for the mentality of the newer player base, which very often is not the long term platerbase, as the ones who do force themselves as "gunners only bruh cos.fuck you!" (which is where the problem lies) are the ones who often leave after a short time.
Which leads me to, the issue is not in the game, but in the games marketing and point of sale.
It still sells to FPS gamers, and uses YouTubers who have FPS followings...
--- End quote ---
It's not that he's trying to cater the new players, it's that engineers are stupidly important to a ship to the point where you cant keep up with other ships unless you have ATLEAST two engineers ,and even then some teams take THREE.
The scenario he's trying to strive for is that all classes should be viable enough with just one of their counterparts on a ship.
Pilot is perfectly safe from this due to the nature of his captaining position and class' unique gameplay aspects that generally do not interrupt rest of the crew's performance.
Engineers are good on their own, you could say they're powerful for maintaining a ship but that is really what they were designed to do.
Whilst gunners, if you're playing competitively, are mostly redundant except for a few niche guns and can easily be bypassed by the buff counterpart of engineer.
Basically, "no more than one pilot because only one person on the ship can take the helm and their playstyle generally doesnt interrupt the crew's performance"
"no more than one gunner -IF, IF- you have guns that have several different viable ammo types with their own niches, because it does more harm than good"
and "HAVE ALL THE ENGINEERS"
Seriously, a ship with a Hades, Lumberjack, Mine and formerly Hwacha (rip heavy clip) would function well with three engineers, whilst a gunner on any of these guns in the same ship would do better but still become inferior when the ship is being shot at
Hoja Lateralus:
Gunner is underdutied and engineer is overdutied, especially main engineer. Let's admit, running in circles, cheming and repairing with no shooting isn't 'that' fun.
I like suggestions for improving / adding new mechanics to stamina, I also made some similar suggestions.
I don't like pipe wrench as a "default" tool for everyone. Rather give 2nd engineer slot to gunner and see how most of your problems are fixed. Either that or make ammo actually useful.
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