Artemis Rocket Launcher

[Machiavelliest]

Then it's a howitzer with less scope and no drop.

Less range, no drop, different damage types and amounts and azimuth travel.  So not really a howitzer.  It can't shred hull.

[The Churrosaur]

There are ways to get out of a repair cycle versus lumberjack and carronade, and there are ways to get out of an artemis disable cycle. It's just not easy.

Agreed, mostly. The difference is however that while a lumberjack disable cycle is relatively easy to break, the disable from, say, a trifecting junker provides a long, vicious, hwatcha-like cycle with the added bonus of range and ease of use. It's just not fun: I played a fjords match between pairs of meta-junkers, it dragged on for forty painstaking minutes of destruction, turtling, rebuilding, repeat by both sides. I even got zuka to rage. I don't want to see the Artemis nerfed back into obscurity, the meta could use some tilling, but the aaaarrrrrrghhhh factor is simply to high: either lower the turning speed/clip size and make it a disabling merc, or lower the crazy AOE and projectile speed to add some skill in destroying components.

my two cents, pardon the text wall.

[Moriarty]

It's very annoying, and a captain or crew that doesn't know how to handle the situation will die every single time. There are ways to get out of a repair cycle versus lumberjack and carronade, and there are ways to get out of an artemis disable cycle. It's just not easy.

Fun story we (in a galleon) had two engines trying to fix a carronade long enough to have it shoot once at a parallel junker, we couldn't keep it up long enough to fire, the experience was eye opening and may and may or may not have contributed to my previous raging on this thread.

With a competent crew the 1v1 scenario might be 'solved' at the moment with art spam.

[RearAdmiralZill]

With a bit of skill, the artemis can quickly disable an enemy ship and pretty much keep it disabled as long as it wants to. While I understand this is quite annoying and hard to come back from, I'm not totally sure how this is different than the lumberjack. Or the carronade, for that matter. With a little bit of skill, a lumberjack ship can disable your balloon and most of your components, and pretty much keep it that way until you die. To a lesser degree, the same with the carronades. It's very annoying, and a captain or crew that doesn't know how to handle the situation will die every single time. There are ways to get out of a repair cycle versus lumberjack and carronade, and there are ways to get out of an artemis disable cycle. It's just not easy.

First, the guns you are trying to compare the artemis to, are heavy guns. They are meant to pack more "umph" than the light counterparts. The fact you have to compare them to make it seem ok is already a red flag.

Second, a lumberjack projectile has arc, and a very small turning radius, so its harder to shoot and hold someone down. And a heavy carronade has less than half the range of the artemis, so you already risk getting in close. Then you have to maintain that range, and out-maneuver your enemy.

With a competent gunner, artemis is simply too good. None of us want to see it get nerfed into oblivion. We just want it balanced.

[Captain Smollett]

I was one of many people who originally asked for the Artemis buff.  I had very much wanted to see such an attractive, well designed and fun to shoot gun enter the meta. I even had envisioned it being able to engine lock a ship.

Unfortunately however it does just seem to be a bit too good. I can't remember the last match I played where a team without an Artemis beat a team who had one.

I don't think it's the high speed, large aoe, decent explosive damage, incredible turning radius individually that make the gun so good but the combination of all three.

The high speed and aoe make it so that not only is it incredibly easy to hit the enemy at range but once you do, you're more likely than not to break a component, and even if you miss, you have another 3 or or 4 shots to make up for it. Once in close range, even if the enemy were to get a gun or engine up, the reload cycle and firing speed make certain that it will be quickly taken back down again and that turn arc makes sure it almost always has a shot.  Add in its explosive damage and some piercing damage from another gun and you can easily kill a ship that can't fight back.

Lastly there is the matter of ease of use.  I was able to achieve all of these incredible results with a gunner who had played the game for less than 3 hours total before joining my ship.

I don't envy awkm's position here since this is clearly not an easy gun to balance, but if I were to try and fiddle with it I'd probably return its original gun arc, reduce the rocket speed in between 1.15 and 1.2 levels and either decrease aoe by 1 or decrease shatter damage. 

[HamsterIV]

I enjoy the wide gun arc and hope that does not get reduced in the next patch. Ever since the flamer nerf there was a need for a gun with a wide turning arc and decent disabling to enable the Squid Difecta. It did not need to be as long a range gun as the Artimis, but the squid needed something capable of holding wide sweet spot and putting the enemy on the defensive. I was personally for a wider turn arc on the mortar, but I can see how that would be OP in the hands of certain captains.

[Captain Smollett]

While I agree with you Hamster that the squid really benefits from a wide turning arc gun, I personally believe it really aught to be a close range weapon; that and the old arc of the Artemis is still quite large and more than capable of making the squid bifecta.

[naufrago]

I think that the main reason that many people consider the Artemis OP now is how it's relatively easy to cripple all of a ship's components and KEEP them crippled. I don't see anything wrong with it being useful for precisely disabling components, but it's not much fun when you can keep everything disabled indefinitely. Basically, it should keep its ability to snipe components in the hands of a skilled gunner, but it shouldn't be able to permanently cripple them.

I think the best way to balance Artemis is to drastically increase its reload time. I'd also like to see its damage lowered a bit and its magazine increased by 1 - 3 shots. Basically let it do the same damage per magazine (or perhaps a little less), but over a longer period of time. It would give the enemy crew a little bit of time to react to the incoming damage. It would still be useful for sniping components, but not be overwhelming. It would also make it harder to kill a target with pure artemis launchers.

EDIT: You could also make the Artemis slightly more inaccurate, so if you want to accurately snipe components from range you could be forced to use Heavy Clip.

[NikolaiLev]

While I agree with you Hamster that the squid really benefits from a wide turning arc gun, I personally believe it really aught to be a close range weapon; that and the old arc of the Artemis is still quite large and more than capable of making the squid bifecta.

If it's going to be a close range weapon, then it needs its maximum range to be reduced, possibly with the addition of a heavy arc.  It's inherently problematic to allow a disabling weapon to be good at extreme range and close range simultaneously, because there's no counterplay against the weapon.  It's why Heavy Flaks were a problem, and why they're not anymore.

I don't want them to necessarily receive an Arming Time, but they just don't need a wide arc to do what they do, so that needs to be nerfed.

It doesn't help that the AoE is so large.  It doesn't take a lot of skill to make use of, this is another good avenue of approach when dealing with the weapon.

I think that the main reason that many people consider the Artemis OP now is how it's relatively easy to cripple all of a ship's components and KEEP them crippled. I don't see anything wrong with it being useful for precisely disabling components, but it's not much fun when you can keep everything disabled indefinitely. Basically, it should keep its ability to snipe components in the hands of a skilled gunner, but it shouldn't be able to permanently cripple them.

I think the best way to balance Artemis is to drastically increase its reload time. I'd also like to see its damage lowered a bit and its magazine increased by 1 - 3 shots. Basically let it do the same damage per magazine (or perhaps a little less), but over a longer period of time. It would give the enemy crew a little bit of time to react to the incoming damage. It would still be useful for sniping components, but not be overwhelming. It would also make it harder to kill a target with pure artemis launchers.

I think I'd rather see a slight damage decrease instead of a reload increase.  The latter would push it more towards the Field Gun and that's something we ought to avoid.  We could nerf its DPS by reducing its damage (this would also have the effect of requiring multiple hits on a component, thus further increasing the skill requirement).

Disabling weapons should have burst disable potential, or good sustained disabling.  Not both.

[naufrago]

I think that the main reason that many people consider the Artemis OP now is how it's relatively easy to cripple all of a ship's components and KEEP them crippled. I don't see anything wrong with it being useful for precisely disabling components, but it's not much fun when you can keep everything disabled indefinitely. Basically, it should keep its ability to snipe components in the hands of a skilled gunner, but it shouldn't be able to permanently cripple them.

I think the best way to balance Artemis is to drastically increase its reload time. I'd also like to see its damage lowered a bit and its magazine increased by 1 - 3 shots. Basically let it do the same damage per magazine (or perhaps a little less), but over a longer period of time. It would give the enemy crew a little bit of time to react to the incoming damage. It would still be useful for sniping components, but not be overwhelming. It would also make it harder to kill a target with pure artemis launchers.

I think I'd rather see a slight damage decrease instead of a reload increase.  The latter would push it more towards the Field Gun and that's something we ought to avoid.  We could nerf its DPS by reducing its damage (this would also have the effect of requiring multiple hits on a component, thus further increasing the skill requirement).

Disabling weapons should have burst disable potential, or good sustained disabling.  Not both.

I agree that disabling weapons should pick between burst and constant disabling, but I don't think increasing reload time would make it too similar to the field gun. Basically, I'm suggesting the Artemis be useful for keeping a ship crippled (not necessarily disabled) by lowering its dps, and the point of increasing the reload time is to make it so that you can't keep everything offline 95% of the time (since that's no fun for anyone).

[awkm]

Hot fix applied:

-Artemis
--Decreased upward pitch angle (-35 to -10 degrees, skewed towards downwards aiming)
--Decreased rotation speeds (100 to 80 pitch, 120 to 30 yaw)
--Decreased zoom (3.5 to 2x)
--Slightly decreased muzzle speed (750 to 675m/s)
--Slightly decreased rate of fire (0.67 bullets per second to 0.625)
--Slightly decreased AoE (5 to 3.5m)
--Slightly decreased reload speed (5 to 7s)
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)

Please point any suggestions or complaints (not theory crafting) in the Guns balance thread.

[N-Sunderland]

My job as an engi just got about twelve times easier.

[JaceBoojah]

the side to side angle is the same so it will not change some ship builds.  I think this was a smart change.

[Ofiach]

I'm sorry but the gun is pointless now.

- 3 direct hits to cripple components. unless you're using charged.
- no more ranged use since it blows up at just beyond a grid square. (measured that on dunes)
- miss a component and you might as well be tickling the enemy ship.
- the gun doesn't shoot up, Period. if an enemy is level with your balloon hes too high for the arc
- moves too slow to really be viable in Close quarters. 
- Slow rate of fire means it's extremely easy for a a gunner to hop off his gun and whack it with a mallet before you can put a follow up shot on his gun.

Farewell Artemis it has been a fun week! I know alot of work goes into balance and I don't mean to be a total dick.... but this is what everyone was afraid of and didn't want to happen! Back to gat flak all day every day.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I'm sorry but the gun is pointless now.

It certainly isn't.

- 3 direct hits to cripple components. unless you're using charged.

Probably because the AOE was reduced, and you missed. I used it last night on the junker and still killed components handily with burst, though not as easily, which is the point.

- no more ranged use since it blows up at just beyond a grid square. (measured that on dunes)

Haven't tested that, and could easily be fixed with a tweak to the actual range to make it longer again. That is an advantage to this gun and I could see giving that back to it to give it that edge over mid-range.

- miss a component and you might as well be tickling the enemy ship.

Same goes for howitzer once the armor is down. If the armor is down and you are hitting it with artemis, it will do good damage.

- the gun doesn't shoot up, Period. if an enemy is level with your balloon hes too high for the arc

I didn't notice this but never really paid attention. I did notice it on my carronades though, and it adds more to the point keeping a boat in an advantageous position. It's the pilot's job to know the limitations of his guns and to compensate for the guns he chooses.

- moves too slow to really be viable in Close quarters. 

It was always meant to be a long/mid range gun. The arc is unchanged so it's just a level of gunner skill to keep it on target.

- Slow rate of fire means it's extremely easy for a a gunner to hop off his gun and whack it with a mallet before you can put a follow up shot on his gun.

Well this too is based on gunner skill to hit his targets. Damaging a gun lowers its effectiveness, and that gunner has to hop off to repair it, so hes not firing. You don't have to completely destroy something to lower its effectiveness to 0.

The reason people like gat flak, it its ease of use, and ability to get kills. Problem with it is, that's all it does. You're forgoing disable power for straight kill power. And if you aren't the first one firing, you have a problem. It's not overpowered. It does what it's meant to. But careful strategy can win over brute force all day long.

And don't take the separation of your post personally, I just wanted to keep my points tidy.