Clip size rounding and reload time

[Daft Loon]

Currently several gun-ammo combinations receive a significant benefit or penalty from the need to round to whole numbers of shots. Eg heatsink rounds on a 2 shot gun give 3 shots, +50% compared to its stated +30% and lesmok rounds on the same gun has -50% from a stated -30%.

My suggestion: Increase or decrease the guns reload speed for the next reloading proportional to the difference between stated clip size change and actual clip size change after rounding. This would apply to the gun as soon as 1 shot is fired of that ammo type and end when reloading completes or the gun is destroyed. For example firing a greased round from a mine launcher would decrease the subsequent reload time by 20% while firing lesmok would increase it by 30%(assuming a 1:1 translation from clip size difference to reload time).

I think this would increase the range of useful ammo choices on several guns significantly and potentially add some interesting choices in loadout combinations and reloading choices.

If modifying reload time is too broken/time consuming to implement a simpler buff/nerf mechanic such as modifying rate of fire on the same basis could work.

[MagKel]

I second the proposed amendment.

Exploiting the ammo size increase is a widespread crime against game balance, while "next reload cooldown" requires tactical decisions which is what the game is (partially) about.

None the less this is going to be buried by criticism, i can see that coming.

[Koali]

*Drives up in a dump truck.*

Somebody called?

Ahem. While different reload times would undoubtedly be effective for helping the issue of tiny (and huge) clips, there is the issue of near-instant Lochnagar reload...

Like you're on a heavy flak, you fire off a Loch shot, reload in a second, and fire off two normal shots, demolishing the enemy ship.

[BlackenedPies]

@Koali   Lochnagar means there's only one shot so the suggestion wouldn't affect it.

The suggestion makes sense but I'm hesitant about affecting reload. Then again it would only be for when the math doesn't round evenly. I'd be more in favor of affecting rof, however the mine launcher wouldn't be affected by this. A possible solution would be creating a small delay between when the mine finishes shooting and when it reloads. Rof modifiers would affect this delay.

The suggestion would decrease dps for the popular charged combo on merc, h flak, and h carro. Arguably charged only has real use because there are guns that aren't affected by clip reduction.

An alternative to modifying reload/rof could be creating a reload delay for all guns based on their time to empty clip / reload ratio. Ammo would affect this delay.

[Daft Loon]

The fact that charged would retain its maximized damage per clip would i think keep it in consideration for ammo choice, it would just be less forgiving if one clip was not enough.

[ZnC]

The two biggest problems I see with this suggestion is that player decisions will have less of an effect, and it adds an inconsistent behaviour to weapons.

Clip size rounding is absolutely intentional in how the game is designed. To give an example of what I mean by player decisions having less effect: "Charged Rounds would give damage but also increase reload time, Burst Rounds can increase AoE and reduce reload. Both ammo choices are pretty good, so I'll just use whatever I like."
Instead, players are encouraged to reason: "Charged Rounds is stronger on weapons with low clip size because it doesn't suffer from ammo loss and lower rate of fire as much. Burst Rounds do better on fast firing weapons with higher clip size and AoE because et cetera, et cetera."
Certain ammo types work better with certain guns, certain guns work better on and against certain ships. A well designed game (like GOIO) would make players think about those elements, learn what works better, and consider all the information when making a decision.

Taking the difference in ammo gain/loss and applying it via a percentage-based modifier would really just affect weapons with low clip size (1-3). This gives an inconsistent behaviour for weapons in general and is needless complexity; exclusive rules should always be an element of the weapon itself.

@MagKel: You definitely saw it coming.
I can be pretty antagonistic to many ideas suggested; mainly because I've spent a lot of time measuring and studying GOIO's game design in depth, while also rationalizing and playing competitively.

[Sammy B. T.]

To piggy back on other comments, charged and greased fill the same basic rule, dps increase. Greased however is mathematically better at this with the exception of small clip guns. I worry this change would muddy the distinction.

[Crafeksterty]

Ide rathher have it as an interresting drawback than a buff.
So that engineers atleast would wish they were a gunner.

As much as this is interresting, it doesnt fix the fundemental flaw of the gunner, it just adds a new layer of complexity.
If this wasnt for making gunners usefull, then this fix would make them less wanted. Cus it boils down to what damage they do, not what reload they do. Thats why all the stats, or most of them are within the fundementals of gunning and shooting.

[Daft Loon]

To clarify what I'm aiming for here (not claiming that this suggestion would get us even halfway there by itself though) id like to see more guns act like the mine launcher where a gunner might regret not being able to bring 4 or more ammo types as there are many strong ammo choices each with distinct benefits and drawbacks.

In the case of the heavy flak at least i disagree with the claim that greased and charged could become indistinct, hitting while the armor is down is far more important than average dps so the difference between rapid weaker shots and slower more powerful shots would be a matter of risk and reward. I also don't really see the point about choice, what we have currently is more a matter of picking the 1 or 2 ammo types almost universally known to be best for that gun in most situations or if your captain recommends them to you not even that.

As a way to avoid inconsistent hidden effects what do people think of introducing post clip reload modifiers as a mechanic and using them to avoid gun-ammo combinations with either no drawback or no advantage. I know they already rejected reload time modifiers on ammo but i assume that was due to the difficulties of adding it to guns as you load the ammo in (like using hypothetical greased ammo to load the gun faster then changing to charged at the last second). Remembering that a reload time modifier already exists in the form of gun damage can anyone point out any exploits or likely bugs with reload modifiers as i suggested them?

Or do you think that having some choices that are all benefit and some that are all drawback is just fine how it is?

[ZnC]

Having multiple ammo types would let you optimize your range; this is especially useful for weapons with arming time or longer range. That is the main reason people bring a gunner - to optimize range for weapons like the Mine Launcher.

While you have a valid argument of having more ammo options available, I am unsure if it would be a good thing for the game. There's really no other reason aside from range optimization to have multiple ammo types, unless there are ammo types with special effects like "x1.5 to components" or "pushes the enemy ship". I think that would be pretty difficult to work towards without overhauling a big part of the current gunning system, since it is specifically designed.

Personally though, I enjoy using and observing the effect of strong gun-ammo combinations.

[BlackenedPies]

Personally though, I enjoy using and observing the effect of strong gun-ammo combinations.

Multiple ammos are only viable on two guns: lumberjack (sometimes) and mine. Every other gun only needs one strong gun-ammo combo. Adding new ammos likely won't fix this because there's no way to compete with +20% damage and extra repair (and ship buffs). The simplest and most balanced way to fix gunners is to give them another tool slot. New ammos could then be added and gunners would be able to significantly outperform a wrench buff chem engi in some situations.

Even with an extra tool slot gunners can't necessary outperform a spanner mallet buff. But what's the problem with that. Gunners are for beginners and then you grow up. Being engineer is a ton more fun. It's more complex and much more helpful. There's always something useful to do. Being gunner is lazy. Gunners should be less useful.

[Fynx]

Greased mines OP.