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Oh boy, another gunner balance thread

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Indreams:
Gunners do need a tweak. Because gunning is about the most static thing in the game.

* A ship will almost always have one gunner.
* That gunner will almost always be told to man the heavy guns.
* If there is no heavy gun, the gunner will almost always be told to man that one gun (that usually faces front).
* The gunner will use heavy on hwacha and carronade
* The gunner will use lesmok on flamethrowers and other range-limited guns.
* The gunner will use one ammo that they like on long-range guns (lesmok/charged/lochnagar) and never find a reason to use a different ammo.
* Greased will work with almost all guns.
* If the gunner is GeoRmr, the gunner will insist on heatsink, and do a really fine job.  :PThat's about it. One gun, one ammo for most of the game. And a lot of gunners (including myself) forget about loading the gun and runs with normal ammo.

My belief is that the solution lies in making Gunner more complex. Add more guns, add more ammos, or modify how ammos work. Anything that makes gunning more dynamic would be a good fix, in my humble opinion.

Ayetach:
Just a crazy thought but lets say nothing about the gunner changes except that, unique from the other two classes, the gun they sit on reloads about... lets say 10-15% faster than any other class does. That could be a game changer in that their ability to keep shooting makes them more important especially for certain guns that suffer long reload times. I don't think that would make them too overly powerful and it incorporates a hint of the stamina system elements in the role yes?

Therefore buffs don't have to be touched and ammo types don't have to be touched. Just a simple characteristic suited for that class; And to be perfectly fair to those arguing against the idea, one can also say that piloting is unique to the other classes as they control the ships movement, as much as an engineer has uniqueness applied to their control over rebuild/repair/fire fighting simultaneously, contrary to what the other classes can do in that area.

Lanliss:
Each class is unique, but all of them can do the others jobs. None as well as the class meant for that job, but well enough to get by. The only problem is that gunner has such a simple job, and there are so many various guns, that an engie can do almost as well as a gunner in any weapon, and a buff engie can do better than a gunner in some. Also, Muse does not want something that makes each class a "unique butterfly" so gunner getting a bonus 10-15% on reload speed is not too likely.

If the different ammo types were adjusted a bit, making more applicable to multiple situations, a gunner would be more useful. The current issue is that you can get three engies, give them all the separate ammos you want them to have, and they can replace the gunner. Really, you could do the same by giving three gunners separate repair tools, instead of default pipe wrench.

Crafeksterty:
And this is why gunners need a bit of attention.

We only have 3 classes, 2 of which are requiered (Pilot and engie) and an optional gunner.
This is not a good balance. What we want is to have the gunner up in the level of pilot and engie. That way, all classes (except pilot) are optional.
Having the gunner be as usefull as maybe wanting to bring 2 gunners should be a thing because then we have options and flexability amongst the classes.
Both engie and gunner need to be deemed optional in the sense of how you want your ship prioritized.

Some captains bring themselves as Engie, why wouldnt we want the same flexability happen with gunner? I mean highly unlikely, and the reasoning to it is pretty shallow :P
But a captain need to want to bring a gunner on all ships. Or more... But because of how static ( see above ) gunners are to the guns, they will always only or mostly be for heavy weapons like the HF, LJ, Mino and Barely hwacha.

The only other light gun which the gunner excells at is the minelauncher just for the sake of playing with its range.

Ayetach:

--- Quote from: Lanliss on March 11, 2015, 07:23:31 am ---Each class is unique, but all of them can do the others jobs. None as well as the class meant for that job, but well enough to get by. The only problem is that gunner has such a simple job, and there are so many various guns, that an engie can do almost as well as a gunner in any weapon, and a buff engie can do better than a gunner in some. Also, Muse does not want something that makes each class a "unique butterfly" so gunner getting a bonus 10-15% on reload speed is not too likely.

If the different ammo types were adjusted a bit, making more applicable to multiple situations, a gunner would be more useful. The current issue is that you can get three engies, give them all the separate ammos you want them to have, and they can replace the gunner. Really, you could do the same by giving three gunners separate repair tools, instead of default pipe wrench.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, the main problem that exists with gunners from my observations is that each class has at-least 2 ammo types; They can use 'standard' and whatever secondary ammo they wish to bring (sure more ammo types *might* mitigate that but I'm skeptical) - gunners just happen to offer two more slots beyond that. The problem is mainly centered around that - most guns won't need more than one ammo type if you want to benefit from engineering as well.

There are select guns and ship loadouts that require a gunner because their ammo type helps enhance the performance of more than one gun or augment those few guns that stand to benefit (i.e. mine launcher or lumberjack) - beyond that most other guns can be handled by the other two classes because although its nice to have a few different ammo types to choose from, one is generally satisfactory enough to do the job. Observing this disparity, a gunner is further gimped by the fact that they only offer one repair tool and so generally most players see this as the optional third class if it suits their design.

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