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Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
Dr Brobotnik:
Hello. This is a thread intended to provide feedback about the recent patch. Everything posted herein are my personal opinions and does not reflect what the developers should do - merely what I think they should do, and I shall argue for what I think they should do.
Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
Now, I have been discussing this a lot with my GoI pals, and several suggestions were made about the Pyramidon. One idea was to reduce it's turning rate instead of it's armor, or it's lifting power, basically a slower ship. However, the real problem, as I see it, was always the two guns at the front of the ship, which resulted in a gatling-mortar/flak combo that was really hard to defend oneself against. Basically, the gatling gun ate up the armor too fast and the mortars/flaks blew the hull up faster than it could be repaired. But since switching the gunports might require a redesign of the ship at large, an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
Those are my thoughts about the patch. Feel free to post your own ideas.
Thanks a lot - Dr Brobotnik.
Hoja Lateralus:
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
--- End quote ---
So much this. I think both squid buff and pyramidion nerf should be restricted to speed, acceleration and turning.
Regarding Minotaur - it's extremely annoying for the one on recieving end and it slows down the game more often than not. It's silly that I can rotate enemy ship by 90 or more degrees with one clip. I have an impression that the ship buffs/nerfs and new gun weren't playtested enough.
DJ Logicalia:
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
--- End quote ---
I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
--- End quote ---
The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.
I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way
DrTentacles:
It's a lot easier to evade a Hwatcha than a Minotaur, however.
Dr Brobotnik:
--- Quote from: DJ Logicalia on February 25, 2015, 08:41:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: DJ Logicalia on February 25, 2015, 08:41:37 pm ---I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed
--- End quote ---
It is however my experience that the nerf is a bit too heavy.
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm ---As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: DJ Logicalia on February 25, 2015, 08:41:37 pm ---The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.
--- End quote ---
However, hwachas can be disabled pretty quickly with two guns.
--- Quote from: DJ Logicalia on February 25, 2015, 08:41:37 pm ---I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way
--- End quote ---
I disagree. Nerfing the durability of a ship made to go into the thick of battle makes no sense. There are other avenues you could have taken.
--- End quote ---
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