Communists in GOIO

[Hoja Lateralus]

Hello there

Recently I had the "pleasure" to play the game and notice that russian clan uses communist symbol (sickle and hammer) in their clan tag. I reported the player from that clan and I would like ask you all to do the same. Communism was a regime responsible for the deaths of millions of people and it is not right to use its emblem (I think it's actually against the law in many countries).

Hope you understand

[Omniraptor]

Says the guys with a freaking mushroom cloud on his profile picture...

[Hoja Lateralus]

Are you serious?

[HamsterIV]

Every major Nation and ideology has blood on its hands. You might as well be reporting people for having an Anarchist's A, the Muslim Crescent or the Star of David. I think we draw the line at the swastika because some really nasty people are still using as a banner to do nasty things under in western culture.

Palistinans could argue the same thing about Israel, but nobody really seems to care.

[ZnC]

Are you serious?

We're supposed to be asking you that I think...

From Wikipedia:
"Because Marxism-Leninism was used to establish a variety of regimes around the world (such as Cuba, China and North Korea) and claimed leadership of the communist movement, and the portrayal by anticommunists of such regimes being an example of communism, in mainstream usage communism has come to be incorrectly regarded as equivalent to this ideology and these regimes."

[c-ponter]

I agree that a game is not the place for promoting political ideals or beliefs, however I also do not see the need to persecute others for said beliefs. Obviously I do not agree with the way that many communist countries have gone about reaching those ideals (Russian Stalin being the prime example) but at the same time he did not commit nearly as many murders as he is given credit for, many of his apparent 'slaves' were a actually normal Russian citizens who volunteered to work in camps in the hope of a better Russia at the end of it all. Personally I agree with the communist ideals that all are equal and everything is divided among all, unfortunately they are just ideals and cannot happen in reality. I would almost say Stalin did succeed in that he did turn Russia from one of the most backwards countries in the world to a great superpower in roughly 10 years, an achievement which has only been recently matched ( that I am aware of, and I realize this will not be a popular statement) by Hitler. The Nazi idea in itself does not persecute Jews or any other religious or ethnic groups, Hitler simply used them as a political tool to gain power and for those not persecute d in both Russia and Germany under said leaders life generally was a huge improvement.
I guess what I mean to say is I dont think they should use political symbols for a clan tag but ar the same time I dint have anything against it, if they are abusing the perception of what communism is then report them but until that point I don't see any real reason to do so.
Of course all of what I have just said us void of there is a rule I missed about political links In clan names XD
(Disclaimer: nearly all of what I have just said is out of history textbooks from school so if you do disagree and have sources feel free to link them/state what they claim, I am always up for a discussion on this rather interesting topic)

[Queso]

Alright, let's take a step back. Communism is an ideology that in itself is neither good nor bad. The symbol is thus neither good nor bad. Many people have used the symbol politically, much the same as other groups use the five pointed star politically. They are symbols that represent different things to different people.

The line we as a society draw with the swastika is interesting because it was so strongly tied to an ideology that almost everyone agrees was "bad". The symbol stood for Nazism, an ideology explicitly involving eugenics and murder. We don't draw the line at a hammer and sickle because it is a symbol of communism. It was conceived by workers as a symbol of the proletarian struggle against an oppressive upper class. It was a symbol to unite them. People then used communism and it's symbology to justify murder, but that's very different from saying communism is an ideology that encourages murder.

HOWEVER, there is no perfect line to be drawn in the sand. That is the nature of language and symbolism. Different words and icons have different meanings, different impacts on different people. I implore you all to respect each other's differences in this matter. However in regards to the clan in question, if they are not causing other issues, they have not as of yet violated the community standards, and are allowed to continue to play the game as is.

Feel free to continue to discuss here, but I will be keeping an especially close eye on this thread and will lock it if necessary. Please be respectful of each other's personal feelings and beliefs.

If you have any problems with the actions of myself, any player, moderator, CA, or employee, please contact abuse@musegames.com

[c-ponter]

The symbol stood for Nazism, an ideology explicitly involving eugenics and murder.

Any chance you c ould link /give me the name of a source or 2  claiming  this? As I previously stated I am rather interested in the debate in this area and as far as I was aware the Nazi ideology itself did not permit murder/persecution, this was just a tool used by many of its famous representatives that has given the ideology a bad name. I would like to know if I was mis-lead about this but every source I can find either supports my view or more often ignores the ideology  completely in order to focus on the negative connotations surrounding Hitler and other leaders

[Schwalbe]

The symbol stood for Nazism, an ideology explicitly involving eugenics and murder.

Any chance you c ould link /give me the name of a source or 2  claiming  this? As I previously stated I am rather interested in the debate in this area and as far as I was aware the Nazi ideology itself did not permit murder/persecution, this was just a tool used by many of its famous representatives that has given the ideology a bad name. I would like to know if I was mis-lead about this but every source I can find either supports my view or more often ignores the ideology  completely in order to focus on the negative connotations surrounding Hitler and other leaders

Wanna borrow Mein Kampf?
Actually, I and Disaster are from the country which had it's spirit destroyed by both communist and nazi regimes.
If it's just an ideology, then go ahead and say that "well, ISIS's Jihad is just an ideology, nah".

Oh, by the way. My grandfather survived one of those "volunteer" camps. Do you want me, to diminish you to broken animal the same way? Oh sure you WANT.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Using such logic the swastika was a symbol of hapiness in India and Nazis just "stole it", just as Roman Salute and other stuff. But we all know that most people use swastika regarding the Third Reich and its ideology. The same goes with hammer and sickle - which people mostly use with regards to Soviet Union and other communist regimes. If someone is bragging with the same symbol that people wore when exterminating whole peoples (ever heard of Great Hunger (Holodomor) on Ukraine? massive murder of Polish officers in Katyn? resettling thousands of Poles to Siberia? countless women raped by Red Army soldiers? 60 milion people worked to death in gulags 'only'?). Communism was "just an idea" that killed tens of milions of people.
Someone said that history is written by winners. That's why swastika is hated in the world but sickle and hammer are somehow "okay". Those symbols represent regimes similar as well in scale as in the amount of horror they brought into whole nations. They just changed in the way the wanted to created ideal society - Hitler believed that ideal society can be created genetically and Stalin believed that it should be created by "sociological" and political process.
I think the reaction to such symbols excisting in society shows something about the community. Especially such showed here on the forum. And yes, I will be reporting every communist symbol I will fall into while playing the game.

[c-ponter]

Mein kampf is an autobiography written by Hitler in which he even states that his view is extreme, historically speaking it is so biased it cannot be used on its own to gain a balanced opinion. And I did say I do not agree with the way he went about enforcing the ideology.
At no point did I say all were volunteers, just a larger percentage than people realized.
Finally my  great grandfather also survived a WW2 Labour camp (though Japanese, not Russian or German) so plz don't try pulling  family.
I sincerely apologize if I offended you, I was simply stating facts as I believe them about two political  ideologies, in no way was I defending the monsters who used them to justify their actions and am sorry if it came across that way.
I cannot comment on current ISIS events as I know very little about them, but to the best of my knowledge they are Islamic terrorists using the Islamic religion as a cover up for the crimes they commit

[Crafeksterty]

I cant belive people dont notice this.

The swastika that of nazis is crooked. While swastikas that of ancient times or positive uses of today arent. I havent seen any swastikas that are crooked and meant for good while crooked swastikas was always coming from the nazi flag.

Think of it in a way of reversing the christian cross as a way to showcase a polar opposite of its meaning. you know, antichrist.


In anycase, Omniraptors first comment pretty much sums up the whole topic.
As much as the negative use of swastikas does present and remind people of the second world war, communism does not and did not, it was part of the war but it wasnt in the symbol of cleansing people they dont want out of the world. Seriously there is a huge difference.

Communism mostly symbolised the work of the people rather than an ideaology as radical/extreme as the nazi. Communism as old as it is, did have bad history but that isnt solely based on its negativities and isnt meant that way either. In the times of nationalities it was important for all countries to classify allies and axis. Because nationality pride i donnu...


And again, it is ironic seeing someone with a nuclear profile pic talk about taking away negative symbols.

[HamsterIV]

@Schwalbe
Did you just play the German card? (it is like the race card if you are black)

[Queso]

I'd actually like to apologize for my previous post. In my previous post I was speaking both of my opinion on the subject and as a moderator, which could easily be misinterpreted. There is merit to this discussion that I don't intend to quell by imposing my opinion as the way I moderate. I will not be removing my post since it's already part of the discussion, but I will likely be avoiding further discussion or moderation of this topic, since I am too involved in it.

[c-ponter]

Mr disaster while I agree that those events were horrific and should be treated as such, by that theory Christianity should be illegal due to the crusades, Muslims should be punished for their countless Jihads over the years, Egyptians should be persecuted for their enslavement of the Jews ect... Though none of these events are justifiable in any way shape or form in my opinion there is no point dwelling on what a symbol or ideology was used to represent by one or several prominent members, as a general rule every ideology would work in theory but none of them can in reality, there will always be people who  use and exploit religion or politics to justify their actions, but does that really mean all religion and politics should be outlawed?