AN OPEN LETTER: "Return to crew form or rematch?"

[Enochh]

Hi to all, i'm Enochh, the leader of the Ra clan
I've decided to write this letter to share with everyone my point of view about a very burdensome issue.
Many people complain of matchmaking because low-level players often find very unbalanced matches and they encounter ships full of members of the same clan or friends with high-level.
Often these high-level teams, after winning the game, instead of doing rematch, they go for 'return to crew form'.

An example. Yesterday for the first time I could get two ships full of Ra members. I found a game and immediately all opponents left. Only one player remained (whose name I won't say here), and started complaining about the problem I have explained before. He did pressure on us to split up, he pushed for that. I assured him that after that match we would have done a rematch. He could hardly believe it, but in the end we did rematch and all ended up well.
Now, a little premise.
We members of the Ra clan, always try to help the community in different ways: accepting on match lower level players and trying to teach them, we are very sociable in the lobbies, and many other things such as trying to balance the matches (I have seen other clans doing that, for example, the SREP, the DAGZ, the TT). But sometimes I think it's normal for friends, or members of the same clan, wanting to play together for various reasons, including training for the official competitions. I can understand the problem of the players because I was low level too. Everyone here has been low level. I also understand the need to try as much as possible to balance the games. But this can not become a matter of aggressive discussion every time or even become a requirement. It is not our fault if we were put in that lobby. Also the clans sometimes need to be able to practice playing together against other people. I remember that, when I was low-level, those situations helped me more than anything to learn and grow my determination to improve myself in this game.

I thought about it a lot and I came to the conclusion that one of the causes of this problem is this:
I noticed that if I participate in 3 games, I can meet players of about 20 different clans. I think that the ease with which you can create a new clan (as well as increasing the possibility of trolling clans) also contributes to the dispersion of the community. Often these clans have very few members and then often the members play alone. Or often, having all members of that clan low level, it is normal that they have higher chances to be put in an unbalanced match. I believe that it should be harder to create new clan (and remove inactive or with few members clans) to encourage new players to try to get into the most active clans. Within these clans, the low level players will be able to participate to games with more experienced members. That will increase the chance to have more balanced matches and clan versus clan matches.

Then I would suggest the developers to make it harder to create new clans because I think that this will make the community more united and furthermore enhance the education of new players from those with more experience.

I also want to encourage all members of the major clans to try to balance games as often as they can.

My greetings!

Enochh

[Extirminator]

I thought about it a lot and I came to the conclusion that one of the causes of this problem is this:
I noticed that if I participate in 3 games, I can meet players of about 20 different clans. I think that the ease with which you can create a new clan (as well as increasing the possibility of trolling clans) also contributes to the dispersion of the community. Often these clans have very few members and then often the members play alone. Or often, having all members of that clan low level, it is normal that they have higher chances to be put in an unbalanced match. I believe that it should be harder to create new clan (and remove inactive or with few members clans) to encourage new players to try to get into the most active clans. Within these clans, the low level players will be able to participate to games with more experienced members. That will increase the chance to have more balanced matches and clan versus clan matches.

Then I would suggest the developers to make it harder to create new clans because I think that this will make the community more united and furthermore enhance the education of new players from those with more experience.

While having low level players join in on other clans so they can play together and increase their skill level is a nice utopia, you are forgetting that not all low levels are so invested in the game that they want to stay and sharpen their skills. See as proof the giant fluctuation of players between non-sale and sale times. The harsh truth is that most new players are just in for a few matches for a game they picked up on sale.

Another issue with this way of thinking is the assumption that all low levels, want to be associated with a clan that is not their "core-4-players-who-just-bought-their-4-pack", they wanna play with their friends, and until they don't develop any other friendship bonds in-game with other people, I honestly don't see a reason for them to want to join a foreign clan, never mind how active it is. On the other side of the coin here you have the higher skilled players that are oriented with a clan already, that are basically being forced lower levels upon - No one asked them if they want to befriend the foreign people who you just added to their clan.

Ultimately, The system for making new clans shouldn't be harder. It wouldn't stop new players from confiding into their small play groups, they will keep playing with those 4-core-players, only without the clan tag. While I agree "troll-clans" are annoying, the way to stop them wouldn't be to stop them from creating a clan, it would just constrict their level of customization and creativity in-game - they would still be trolling people I assure you. Also, if what you want is only a few core active clans that are available for people to join in on, what would be the requirements for a clan to be a "core clan"? What is it that makes a clan, in this new system you propose stick out and serve as a "core clan"? Is it the amount of players? activity? Commendations? Strong competitive base? because as I see it, there isn't a good way to classify a "core clan" as you call it - All clans deserve to exist.
I would say that if you are going for only a few "core clans" to be in existence, for the unified community, delete all the current clans, and make one clan for each faction. Which is sort of what adventure mode is gonna be. Btw, I think that this clan for each faction deal in skirmish mode is totally idiotic, but a cool idea for adventure mode.


Also, one last side note -

Often these high-level teams, after winning the game, instead of doing rematch, they go for 'return to crew form'.

From my point of view at least, every time there is a stacked lobby, the skilled side wants the rematch because of the scramble feature. However the low level side have already had enough of it, and they vote for returning to crew. Thus giving birth to an infinite ever lasting cycle of death and terror concluding the end of the glorious times of normal match list.

[Kamoba]

Personally I think the word "Rematch" is what makes new player go for crew form, because as I see it the word rematch suggests keeping the teams the same, especially to new players who don't know the scramble feature, thus encouraging them to select crew form in the hopes of a better match up, perhaps rematch should be renamed to a word more appropriate to scramble than Rematch..

[a DuSt NiNjA]

One of the issue Extirminator points out is one of the most important, and that is the troll clans and core 4 players who dont want to make friends will stlll exist regardless of the system made for clans. Even if they arent in a clan (because many dont figure it out right away), they will still run together. Regarding any changes to the game itself, I think that the "rematch" button could be changed to only appear when scramble is off, and a better word or phrasing used in most public lobbies where scramble is on to imply clicking that option will randomize the lobby. Also informing people of the swap ship and slot functions could be very helpful. One of the biggest reasons this game's community is the way it is is because of the nature of the game itself. Muse made one of the most team-dependent games ever, and it shows at the highest levels and best players to the newest ones. If someone gets the game alone and refuses to make friends, or doesnt find anyone agreeable, they will most likely leave the game. If the "core 4" IRL friends get bored, or one goes inactive, or they all think the learning curve is too high, they will leave. The troll clans leave when they get into serious trouble or when they get bored. I was personally extremely anti clan prior to playing this game, but the nature of the game depends on making friends to play with, online or bringing them with you. Im not sure if there is a solution to this problem, and Im not sure if i want there to be one. I enjoy the small community, and the emphasis on clan team work and competition. But, if I had to make any suggestion for the seasoned Guns players to help the newer ones, it would be this: stomp once and switch. Every vet has the right to play with their clan. Its fun, coordinated, and its great to play with people who are competent and even better than yourself. However, we cant keep complaining/worrying about the community size and quality if we stomp all the time. I am DEFINITELY not for stopping every stomp, but switching things up the 2nd round causes a positive reaction even in the worst bad sports and rudest new players. You get to play AGAINST your own friends/clan members as well, which is always a good challenge.

Just for those who dont want to read all my thoughts, the summary is this. Vet clans should "stomp once and switch" to help new people but still play with their clan. Also, the only change I think would be good to the game is the rephrasing of the "rematch" button when scramble is on to something more related to "shuffle teams".

From Dust

[Extirminator]

I like the proposition of having the scramble visible on the ending screen of the current game, even before entering the new lobby. Simply have the scrambled ships have some sort of indicator on them - hinting how next match should look like and then, if the person is happy with the new teams - he can vote for a rematch of the displayed scrambled teams, or returning back to crew if he isn't happy with it.

[Enochh]

I really appreciate your replies

Some clarification:

While having low level players join in on other clans so they can play together and increase their skill level is a nice utopia,

It's not an utopia, my clan just does it. And not only mine. I can bring you the SREP example, where players with different levels play together.

Another issue with this way of thinking is the assumption that all low levels, want to be associated with a clan that is not their "core-4-players-who-just-bought-their-4-pack", they wanna play with their friends, and until they don't develop any other friendship bonds in-game with other people, I honestly don't see a reason for them to want to join a foreign clan, never mind how active it is.

They could play with their friend anyway, but staying in a bigger clan that can teach and help them too

On the other side of the coin here you have the higher skilled players that are oriented with a clan already, that are basically being forced lower levels upon - No one asked them if they want to befriend the foreign people who you just added to their clan.

Because this is the definition and the true meaning of being a community and being a clan . This is the problem i suppose, that so many "high level players" don't want to play with low levels, even if they are in their own clan, and i saw so many skilled players leave lobbies for that reason or even swapping team.

Ultimately, The system for making new clans shouldn't be harder. It wouldn't stop new players from confiding into their small play groups, they will keep playing with those 4-core-players, only without the clan tag. While I agree "troll-clans" are annoying, the way to stop them wouldn't be to stop them from creating a clan, it would just constrict their level of customization and creativity in-game - they would still be trolling people I assure you. Also, if what you want is only a few core active clans that are available for people to join in on, what would be the requirements for a clan to be a "core clan"? What is it that makes a clan, in this new system you propose stick out and serve as a "core clan"? Is it the amount of players? activity? Commendations? Strong competitive base? because as I see it, there isn't a good way to classify a "core clan" as you call it - All clans deserve to exist.
I would say that if you are going for only a few "core clans" to be in existence, for the unified community, delete all the current clans, and make one clan for each faction. Which is sort of what adventure mode is gonna be. Btw, I think that this clan for each faction deal in skirmish mode is totally idiotic, but a cool idea for adventure mode.

About the clans troll: if you make it more difficult to create the clan in comparison to the possible satisfaction being trolls, the troll clans would not exist
About the way to classify, we can help the Devs to find some reasonable selection criteria like some that you have gently already said.


My best regards

Enochh

[HamsterIV]

Having been on the receiving end of clan pub stomps for a while, I sympathies with the other team walking out of the lobby when the other team looks stacked. Even before the clan system was implemented this was a problem, so I don't think making it harder for new players to form a clan will have much of an effect of things. In fact the bloat of newbie players forming their own clan makes taking on a team filled with clan tags less intimidating.

Hiding levels has gone a long way to helping matches get started because the newbies don't quit the lobby the moment higher levels join the game on the other side. However this means they quit after the victory screen when the levels are revealed. I agree having the game be a bit more transparent about what the teams for the next match will look like will go along way to keeping newbies from rage quitting in the presence of high level players.

[KitKatKitty]

Ahhh match making and crew formation. I topic that has been widely debated.
This problem has become much more prominent every since match making/crew formation was implemented.
There is a minimum requirement of 5 players to keep a clan active. Granted that is a low number but even the largest clans started out small. If the clan does not meet the minimum number of players after 5 days they lose the tag.
Also, there are novice matches for a reason. It is to give new players an area to stay in order to learn the game and gain skills before being put into the larger community. The problem is that a large majority of novice players leave this area and join the normal queue which leads to the "complaining" that we all know too well.
Muse also probably did not think they needed to add another UI that stated that the lobbies are shuffle lobbies since all non-custom lobbies shuffle so it seems redundant, but I understand your point.
Now to address clans. Overall, most clans will try to prevent stacked lobbies or will do as you stated, rematch and then the lobby shuffles them. BUT there are some clans that for various reasons "stack" lobbies but not because they are being mean or stomping noobs. It could be because they want to try new pilots out together, or training for competition, or seeing how potential new members work with their clan, or and this isn't a bad reason, they simply just want to play with their friends. Just because players have been in a clan for a while or players have been in the game a while, doesn't take the basis of players wanting to play with friends. Most clan members become very close friends with each other and there are only certain times that certain players can play which leads to what many call "stacking".

While having low level players join in on other clans so they can play together and increase their skill level is a nice utopia, you are forgetting that not all low levels are so invested in the game that they want to stay and sharpen their skills. See as proof the giant fluctuation of players between non-sale and sale times. The harsh truth is that most new players are just in for a few matches for a game they picked up on sale.

This is such a true statement that it is painful. Many clan do not want to just add new players off a whim and will require that they play with the clan for a set period of time because they do not want those players that are only there for a couple weeks times then leaves the game. When you add a new member to your clan it takes time to introduce them to all the older members, introduce them to rules and how the clan rules, getting them set up on things like the clans steam group, any forum pages the clan may have and things like teamspeak or mumble. So many clans don't want to just continually add members if they are not going to stay.
 

Ultimately, The system for making new clans shouldn't be harder. It wouldn't stop new players from confiding into their small play groups, they will keep playing with those 4-core-players, only without the clan tag. While I agree "troll-clans" are annoying, the way to stop them wouldn't be to stop them from creating a clan, it would just constrict their level of customization and creativity in-game - they would still be trolling people I assure you.

No matter how "hard" the clan system is there will always be trolls and a influx of trolls during sale time. This will never change. Period.

Also, one last side note -

Often these high-level teams, after winning the game, instead of doing rematch, they go for 'return to crew form'.

From my point of view at least, every time there is a stacked lobby, the skilled side wants the rematch because of the scramble feature. However the low level side have already had enough of it, and they vote for returning to crew. Thus giving birth to an infinite ever lasting cycle of death and terror concluding the end of the glorious times of normal match list.

I agree with Extirminator on this one. The majority of the time it is the lower level players that return to crew form not the other way around.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I'm not going out of my way to make people who rage quit happy. In fact if I see known rage quitters I'll give them a real reason to rage quit. They do more damage to the community than any other player right now. Constantly leaving unless they're against complete idiots. Even if their ally is trying their hardest, they leave him to die in a 2v1 all so they can find an easier match.

No, I will not feed these people. TBB will not feed them either. When we run our practices, we do it together. Of course they'll see it as stacking lobbies but it is a clan's right to play together if they want to. If they don't like it, they can form their own clan or join us. Stop being lazy. If they don't want to do that, fine, ragequit, requeue...90% chance MM will throw them back into the lobby anyways. Either way I'll mine them, problem solved.

[Richard LeMoon]

The most lobbies I see returning to crew form or emptying are the ones that have one high level ship, and three lower. The ship the high skilled played with votes to return to crew because they don't want to face the ship that just helped them win, and the other team knows they only have a 50% chance of getting on the same team as the skilled ship.

[Extirminator]

The problem is that a large majority of novice players leave this area and join the normal queue which leads to the "complaining" that we all know too well.

Btw, about that -



If you start a match with a novice player, that's what happens with the low amount of players in Match Making.
I assume that it's enough that a few novices will be funneled to normal matches, and then you start lacking in novice players for said matches. Lacking in novice matches keeps feeding the problem that was faced in the first place. Ending up with a bunch of novice players around normal matches.

While I understand that this sort of feature is needed to actually get those novice players into any sort of match, it's feeding a different problem, and there is no way around it.

[KitKatKitty]

The problem is that a large majority of novice players leave this area and join the normal queue which leads to the "complaining" that we all know too well.

Btw, about that -



If you start a match with a novice player, that's what happens with the low amount of players in Match Making.
I assume that it's enough that a few novices will be funneled to normal matches, and then you start lacking in novice players for said matches. Lacking in novice matches keeps feeding the problem that was faced in the first place. Ending up with a bunch of novice players around normal matches.

While I understand that this sort of feature is needed to actually get those novice players into any sort of match, it's feeding a different problem, and there is no way around it.

+1 agree.

[Dementio]

Also, there are novice matches for a reason. It is to give new players an area to stay in order to learn the game and gain skills before being put into the larger community. The problem is that a large majority of novice players leave this area and join the normal queue which leads to the "complaining" that we all know too well.

Not only are there not enough novice matches with the current low playerbase, but there are barely any novices. I am not sure if tutorial achievements still have you level up, but if they do than novice that play the tutorials are halfway there to get rid of the novice status. Have them play 10 matches max and they are already lvl 15 or something.
Another problem is that after one match in the novice lobbies, novices might not want to stay there. A few reasons would be, no gamemodes other than deathmatch, only two maps, only three ships with questionable predefined loadouts and a bunch of, well, noobs. With nobody knowing what the hell is going on, who is going to win? I can only imagine the frustration novice pilots give each other.

Muse also probably did not think they needed to add another UI that stated that the lobbies are shuffle lobbies since all non-custom lobbies shuffle so it seems redundant, but I understand your point.

I believe there is a scramble symbol right under the map imagine when in lobby to show that teams will be scrambled, in all lobbies.

[Omniraptor]

TLDR the worst part for both novices and vets is the limited number of rematches, if I'm teaching a novice or just playing with people who are good company I want to play with them for a while.

I understand that muse's philosophy is "everyone should be in matchmaking queue all the time" and kind of get it, because they believe matchmaker does a good job of, you know, matching people up. However GOI is very much a social game and if I meet a random team I enjoy playing against, I want to keep playing with them for the whole session regardless of MMR differences. Our perception of a 'fun and balanced' match is only loosely correlated with MMR.

Sure if I see this good opponent I can and have added them to friends, but it creates a lot of UI friction (compared to crew form) by having to make a custom lobby, invite them, invite the crew that people don't often do it. Used to be more common iirc.

P.S. It would be interesting to see some data or at least stats about skew of MMR distribution.

[Hoja Lateralus]

What is the purpose of novice matches anyways since matchmaker is 'suposed' to make balanced games, hm?

Hint: it doesn't

About the novice being novice really short thing, it's simple maths, even WITHOUT achievement bonuses:
Before the Antichri... I mean, Matchmaker came, the 'out of novice' level was 4 when lvl cap was 15
Now it's lvl 7 I think (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm positive that it's below 10) with a lvl cap of 45. Which is around old lvl2.

I also pledged to raise the novice lvl cap 'at least' to level 10...