Author Topic: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes  (Read 112650 times)

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2014, 11:28:53 am »
I never stated we're happy with the system as is. We've had a bunch of meetings on improving the system and some awesome players have even come up with ideas that preserve flexibility while helping the matchmaker see it's thing.  Ie. check out Omniraptor's idea.

Are we happier with this system than with the match list? Definitely. It's statistically better in a lot of ways and conquers a lot of the old issues we had.

Does this mean it's perfect and we're never touching it ever again?  Definitely not.
I mean we're still looking at the change that happened to the engineer with the buff to the flamethrower making chem spray rotations a big part of the game. Nothing is ever "done" we always want to ask ourselves the cause, effect, and a way to improve the game.

If I seem brisk it's simply because "I don't like it take it away" isn't really solid feedback for us to build off of. I can't argue with anecdotal evidence. If you had unbalanced or slow matchmaking experiences, I won't say it didn't happen, but I will say it's not the characteristic experience of the system, especially compared to the old system.

This isn't to say I am not listening to negative comments, but the constructive ones have definitely been given a lot more consideration
To give an example of negative Feedback that I've appreciated:
"I do not like playing with novices all the time because training can be a lot of work."
We went overboard with some time and flexibility options when some players have talked about balance being more important to them
"We want transparency on how the system works (numbers wise)"

Those are the three I remember going off the top of my head and glancing through the posts. Here's the meetings I've had and we talked about those things.
1. More strict novice division from vets. A lv 40 + a lv 1 =/= a lv 20 + a lv 20, no matter the glicko score due to the lv 1 needing to have experience. We spotted some weaknesses behind the scenes on some of the matchmaker logic and we're going to work on improving that.
2.Some flex features may go away or be adjusted to make the system a little stricter on balance to give better matches.
3. A leaderboard was always planned to give you a general idea of where you are, like gold, silver, ect league. It was planned to replace the levels on the side of the lobby, but since the levels were being used in a terrible way they were removed before the leaderboard was finished.

Also if I missed yours it's more because there's a lot of conflicting voices at the moment and frustrating to comb through everything.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2014, 11:57:53 am »
Don't take away my levels damnit.
We like the levels. We've earned the levels. You've already devalued them by unlinking them from the achievements - don't make it worse.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5002.0.html
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 11:59:57 am by GeoRmr »

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2014, 12:50:42 pm »
If I seem brisk it's simply because "I don't like it take it away" isn't really solid feedback for us to build off of. I can't argue with anecdotal evidence.

Yes, I understand that, and I'm aware that mostly I give "feedback" like this. I'm not proud of it, because I let myself being too driven by my negative emotions.

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If you had unbalanced or slow matchmaking experiences, I won't say it didn't happen, but I will say it's not the characteristic experience of the system, especially compared to the old system.

If you like numbers so much, take a look just on the number of players telling you that they experienced such. And take the multiplifier of the fact, that such matches happen not just often, they happen constantly.

When an event happens so often it becomes a clue that such occurences are characteristic of the spoken system. Therefore I must disagree.

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To give an example of negative Feedback that I've appreciated:
"I do not like playing with novices all the time because training can be a lot of work."

For you it's a negative feedback, for us this is one of the main reasons for giving such feedback. It's not like we don't like to teach others how to play, but FFS, not EVERY SINGLE MATCH. And I suppose that after putting GOIO on sell this will be way more disturbing, as an incredibly big amount of newbies will come...

Quote
We went overboard with some time and flexibility options when some players have talked about balance being more important to them
"We want transparency on how the system works (numbers wise)"


Somehow I think this wasn't what they meant, although none shall disagree that you are putting much effort in your game. The thing is, that this efforts go in vain in case of matchmaker working like this. But to be honest - I will stop my argument right here, only because I do not know how many of those you've talking with have spoken here by far.

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Those are the three I remember going off the top of my head and glancing through the posts. Here's the meetings I've had and we talked about those things.
1. More strict novice division from vets. A lv 40 + a lv 1 =/= a lv 20 + a lv 20, no matter the glicko score due to the lv 1 needing to have experience. We spotted some weaknesses behind the scenes on some of the matchmaker logic and we're going to work on improving that.

Really? I mean - really? You guys really made such claim? Well then I'll say, that even some of the 40 lvl now captains =/= 40 lvl now captains. Rather rarely, it's just the example that even with the most reduced case of the theory such statement is not always true.

Quote
2.Some flex features may go away or be adjusted to make the system a little stricter on balance to give better matches.
3. A leaderboard was always planned to give you a general idea of where you are, like gold, silver, ect league. It was planned to replace the levels on the side of the lobby, but since the levels were being used in a terrible way they were removed before the leaderboard was finished.

2. No offence sir, after recent patch I have the right not to trust you at this issue and I know you are propably forbidden to say more.
3. Leaderboard can endanger the community as it is now - previously players where hunting achievements, after putting leagues in there is a great chance, that the tendency to cursing newbies will be even more harsh to everyone, because if the one part of the command chain is weak, the risk of getting shot down is terribly increased, so it forces a cooperation of sort. I mean - you guys plan things without analysing both sides of the medal (if such proverb in english exists), or even the third or fourth one.

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Also if I missed yours it's more because there's a lot of conflicting voices at the moment and frustrating to comb through everything.

It might be some sort of paranoia, but it seems you guys try to answering only those who agrees with changes of some part. I can understand that. What I can't understand is the feedback of those who do not agree with you, REPORTS WHY we assume the system is broken (or reject those because "our marvellous, divine work makes good job") and try to suggest more or less reasonable solutions.

About hiding levels.
Leave them as they were before hotfix.
All the explanation why was displayed before. If people feel proud of what they achieved, why the blood soaked hell takin' it away? Yes, I noticed those explanations why, but all of those by far seem too far-fetched (I don't mean to offend anyone now, just saying out my feelings) for my sense of logic.

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You've already devalued them by unlinking them from the achievements - don't make it worse.

It may be surprising to you, but I completely agree with GeoRMR. The previous means of leveling where interesting, more requiring alternative to classic experience based leveling. If the reason behind that system was to make level indicator showing some actual earned skill - it was more or less fitting that one. Yeah, of course there were achieve-hunting, but it wasn't very-very-bad in my opinion. It's not like I'm saying that new system is worse but... I don't know. I don't feel getting XPs is so exciting like, for example, getting the third level after your fourth match as a pilot, because you did so well and got those achievements. Just saying.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:57:46 pm by Schwalbe »

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2014, 01:41:19 pm »
@Schwalbe
If you don't trust us, then nothing I say is really going to solve that.
It's not a forbidden to say more, it's more we're looking at it at the moment and I don't want to say we're going to do one thing, switch it at the last moment and do another. I could tell you every thing we're looking at, but I don't really want feedback on the ideas since they're just that, ideas, untested and untempered.  Having an opinion war on everything that goes through the idea pile would be massively time consuming. (We already fight amongst ourselves enough on ideas.)

As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.

As far as the level example it was a snap hyperbole explanation of the weaknesses of novices. As far as lv 40 as the example it's because it was the quickest way to explain it saying 1800 glicko2 score doesn't mean as much.

As for why I don't type back on a lot of the more negative feedback?
Because I don't have anything constructive to say back.


Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2014, 02:36:57 pm »
Quote
As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.

Well, that's the system that you originally made. Why are you now punishing the players who did put that time into it by hiding the progress that they earned?

As a redeeming idea, Why not release a few more profile badges or some other cosmetic element for completionists to display after they finish all the achievements in a class?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 02:40:29 pm by GeoRmr »

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2014, 02:43:01 pm »
Quote
As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.

Well, that's the system that you originally made. Why are you now punishing the players who did put that time into it by hiding the progress that they earned?

As a redeeming idea, Why not release a few more profile badges or some other cosmetic element for completionists to display after they finish all the achievements in a class?

YES!  I'm still attached to achievements and still trying to finish them -- I'd almost completed 125 incendiary kills and 125 fires with flares, and I'll be damned if I let all that work go to waste.  I'm finishing that ****er, and 50 XP or whatever is not the reward I want when I'm already max level.

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2014, 02:46:25 pm »
I could definitely see a "completed all achievements" badge.  Something awesome and rare for the players who put in the time and effort.  I'll check with the team and see what we can do.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2014, 02:49:19 pm »
If it means I'll have to play engineer or finish the teaching achieves I'm still gon be mad. ^^

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2014, 02:51:56 pm »
If it means I'll have to play engineer or finish the teaching achieves I'm still gon be mad. ^^

if it means I have to pilot or finish the teaching achieves I, too, gon be mad.  The rewards should be class-specific imo.

Offline shaelyn

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2014, 03:06:32 pm »
agreed, class-specific, and one for completing all achieves across all classes for any completionists in the community as well.  overkill, maybe, but they'd have earned it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 03:08:20 pm by shaelyn »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2014, 07:17:55 pm »
Idea: A player who has completed all achievements shows up in-game as solid gold. Unfortunately the weight of their ego also makes the ship sink uncontrollably.

Offline Yukiko

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #116 on: October 30, 2014, 05:42:38 pm »
Wow you guys. This went from being about missing ranks and a match making system which destroys the community aspects of the game to wanting more badges. Nice.

I was playing a match the other day. It was a horrible match, painful. Level 1 captain who didn't know how to turn right. The crew did the productive thing, complained in chat.

"This match is so painful!"

To which a MUSE replied, "But it's balanced!"

Hell, it was balanced. At 0-1 and ten minutes in, it must have been one of the most balanced matches I'd ever played it. And it sucked. Whats the point of balance if the captains selected run full stream ahead into a mountain and don't believe in turning? At least an unbalanced game doesn't last long.

People who have played less than 50 matches should be barred from captaining in experienced matches. How about a vote that allows a crew to pick their captain?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 05:56:54 pm by Yukiko »

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2014, 07:06:22 pm »
I recently experienced how voting looks like. It's rather bad idea, and this might be even more frustrating...

But yeah, I must agree about the balance... it's tough to bare quite often...

I'd even say, that players with less than 50 matches should be banned from being captains at all. But honestly - will it REALLY help in anything? I suppose not.

Well in fact, our rage won't do a thing, because nobody's listening. My friend ragequited today, saying that he can't stand it.
I remember times, when I could go with more or less experienced crew, have fun in a lobby with silly people. Now most of those prematches things seem so quiet. Now I play only with my friends, because every fucking time matchmaker does it's job, it crew me with people running around, having no tactic nor skill.

I do not call this fun, and that's why I stopped going on novice matches at some point, coming back on them only for my first matches as a captain.

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #118 on: October 31, 2014, 04:10:34 am »
There's four main things that i dislike with the current 1.3.8 and hotfix. It's a very drastic change and we have been accustomed and used to the old system and adapted to it but it's not fully possible to adapt to the matchmaking because it does not give you all the options to do so. While being in more or less a "wait and see" mode with the main big additions (pve and adv mode) being postponed, a change like this is tough to deal with.
1. The social change of the game. Lobbies turned into queing and timers in lobbies while players change are a disadvantage for ships that want to try organise their crews and team. I feel teamwork and cooperation is more difficult now than before. Teaching gets tiresome and moods get irritated. Yes, the lobbies are still there but the small changes in how they work don't benefit the social quality.
2. Balance. Like keyvias mentioned also, so i'm glad devs might have ideas for a fix to it. If players need to work their way up i'd still like to see that a player/real friend could be invited to any game.
3. Freedom of choice. We aren't given match alternatives to choose from (yes i know friendslist is there but the focus should be on public matchmaking without friends online from a "outside primetime" and "no friends online" perspective). I think the xp addition is ok, especially for those that don't focus so much on achievements.
We have lost too much of our choice so if the matchmaker is improved for better quality games it would compensate some of it.
4. Control. Please don't strip options and flexibility. Rather add possibility to name lobby, more than 3 maps to vote for and things that give us more control to help make the matches more enjoyable. I'm sure many ideas have been posted, mailed and put forward in some way or the other.


Offline SaintR.L.

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2014, 05:25:02 am »
I see many walls of text. Criticism, varied. Good points brought up.

I have a few ideas but I am not exactly sure whether it's just a passing thought to post in critical post or make a whole new topic for. If this isn't applicable or I have missed something important I will withdraw this; it would not be really important then.

Question: Would the development team ever consider having 2 types of lobbies?

I'm not quite sure where to post this. I'll put down my ideas elsewhere but if it's related to this patch I would rather put a link here.