Author Topic: Problems with matchmaking  (Read 153937 times)

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2014, 02:13:36 pm »
What redria said.

Remove friends' MM lobbies from custom lobby list, remove linking custom lobbies to MM, remove taking exp or achieving stuff in custom lobbies. Make all custom lobbies visible to everyone. Then custom lobbies are turned into what you want them to be. Places for casual fun that anyone can join and do not affect the rest of the playerbase.

Offline GreenBreeze

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2014, 02:24:25 pm »
If it is going to be split into two systems or a hybrid system I still feel you will need to have a match list of all the custom games running and waiting. If you split it so that only custom games are advertised to preserve the balance that MM attempts to achieve that would probably be sufficient. The lack of a feature to view lobbies is one of my main complaints about the new system. I don't want to add every person in the game to my friends list to retain functionality I had before. I have seen other games where MM is the default method for finding a match but they still give you the ability to view all the matches and you can join one manually if you desire(Hawken comes to mind). This doesn't seem to break anything in those games, but GOI is unique with it's small community and heavy slant towards teamwork. There aren't really a whole lot of equivalent games to compare it to.

Offline shaelyn

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2014, 04:30:08 pm »
hang on, hang on.  I think we're all suggesting the same thing with a few tweaks, am I right?  split custom matches from matchmaker ones, and games made from the matchmaker only get filled by the matchmaker and maintain balance.  after that, it's just a matter of custom matches and what those that would use it want out of it.  am I right?  just as long as the balanced matches the matchmaker makes don't get touched.

so if we want, since it wouldn't hinder matchmaking, there could be a match list for just custom games.  there could be slot swapping and friend join and everything we want.  and possibly, matchmaker could have a selection on it to fit a person to custom games as well as balanced games (priority: speed, and give a chance for custom games to be filled), or balanced games only.  but none of that would touch the matches that the matchmaker balances.  matches created by the matchmaker can have all the restrictions.

I still question whether we're big enough to split the player base like this.  but it's something Muse can try, if they want to?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 04:33:22 pm by shaelyn »

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2014, 05:05:16 pm »
Entering custom games through matchmaker kills the point of custom games. Custom games should be custom games, ones for the people that cant live without their 4 harpoon mobula and their friend join oh-so-important functions, apart from the rest of the matching system.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2014, 05:05:26 pm »
Even with that CG system there should be a option in MM to fill custom games. You can't fill everything from advertisements because people come and go all the time. You need steady players able to replace ragers. In LFG queues in SWTOR there is an option you have to select to join Ops in progress. It isn't on by default. You just click a box and boom, you are now queued for other groups.

I propose a similar system. Add a button on the MM screen for CGs. People who make CGs can also have a button to accept MM players. So both sides get the choice.

Now lets add another layer to help this. In SWTOR's queue system, you can see the group make up and who is in it before you accept to join. For GOIO CG we do the same. MM finds the CG and the title of the CG game is displayed in a popup box with two buttons, "join match" "return to queue." That way if you don't want to join Farticus's Poontacular match, you don't have to. You just return to queue and look for the next.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2014, 06:01:58 pm »
Features that hurt balance
Rematch
Crew Form
Friend Join
Ship/slot swapping
Spectator swapping
Lobby leaving without penalty
Custom matches
Server Location
Speed of matchmaker

btw, the WANTED minigame is missing here, since if joining on people is against balance and will be removed then the WANTED minigame can't be executed or can it?

Offline B'Elanna

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2014, 08:30:00 pm »
fuck it. just add everyone to your watch-list, and have all the costume matches.
then let's just request a separate (consensual) friends-list and have them be a different colour.

that's the only way to cheat yourself match lists back.

just give us a separate friend-list and i will get off your back. promise.

Offline B'Elanna

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2014, 08:32:42 pm »
AND STOP MAKING THE BOTTOM LOOK LIKE FACEBOOK

Offline shaelyn

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2014, 09:44:23 pm »
Entering custom games through matchmaker kills the point of custom games. Custom games should be custom games, ones for the people that cant live without their 4 harpoon mobula and their friend join oh-so-important functions, apart from the rest of the matching system.

...if you have a custom game and need to fill it, it absolutely does not kill the point of custom games.  if you don't want your custom game open to the matchmaker, don't open it to it.  if you do, then open it, and the person using the matchmaker to find a match also has the option of searching within custom games as well, or filtering them out.  advertising for a match in global is not easy and does not give good results, and it doesn't hurt any of the balanced matches to do this, so why not, if other people want it?

Offline Dev Bubbles

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2014, 12:20:54 pm »
Hey everyone,
Let me chime in real quick.  In the case of match balance, if we are to ensure balance, and that's the number one overriding and over arching goal, then we will need to remove everything that goes counter to and hinders the match maker's ability to balance a match.  These items are:  friend joins, crew form, allowing people to leave pre game lobbies without penalty, having a pre game lobby, slot swaps, ship swaps, wait time, scrambling, rematches, display of cosmetic levels.  I'm new to this thread, and if this has been mentioned before, I apologize for repeating it.  If we slightly modify any of these elements, they can help, but if you guys want balance to be perfect for every single match, and expects the match makers to attempt to achieve, then what we'll need to do is to start taking a lot of the social features away. 

I think the suggestions by Shaelyn and Gilder are really good ones, and we can definitely do that, and they could help.  However, in looking at the data that we collected over the last week, if we want to optimize balance, the first thing we probably should do is to not allow people to leave pre-match lobbies.  Right now, that is by the looks of it, the #1 offender of imbalanced matches (as we also implemented a delay to not put people who left back into the same match right away).  The reason why we allowed people to leave was because of consideration for trolling.  But this is leading to imbalances.  The matches that the match maker actually balanced were at times disrupted or upset by people freely bailing out on matches.  If you guys want, we could implement a real penalty for leaving pre-match lobbies, and that will help match balance.  Another thing that we've seen from data to cause balance to be affected was crew forming by high(est) level players.  This coupled with leaving was the number one reason for match imbalances.  If you guys are willing to forego crew form into match maker for the sake of balance, we could allow crew form to be only for custom games.  But this is going to be a hit for the social aspects of the game. 

The bottomline is, we had to made concessions to make the match system flexible for you guys to foster, expand on, or retain the social, community, and custom features.  These unfortunately impact the match maker's ability to balance matches individually and in totality. 

We can't take complaints about lacking social features and lacking perfect balance at the same time, and be expected to achieve both.  We are trying, and will continue to try.  But being totally honest, to have all the social features you guys want, and to to achieve perfect balance for every match is impossible, as these are opposing forces tugging at each other. 

Also, with the level system, please keep in mind that they are cosmetic by in large.  Perceived imbalance arose when people look at crewed formed high levels and decided that the match was imbalanced at first glance.  So there is also a perception difference between what a person may perceived as balanced or imbalanced, versus what in reality may or may not be balanced.  This is why we removed the display of levels in the prematch lobby, as your levels by in large only tells you how much you've played, but not how well you've played.  The underlying system of the match maker factors in not only how well you've played, but also how well the team as a whole should be playing. 

Personally, I don't want to take away social features if I can help it, as they are what makes our system different and potentially greater and more powerful.  So the 2 things we would like to try are to cap rematches, so that the match maker queue will have more pop in queue over the long run.  The second thing we will try is handsomely reward (and perhaps achievement track) people for staying in lobbies generated by match maker and fight (even as underdogs).  This reward could have impact on leveling as well (as in giving more leveling bonuses).  In adherence to our spirit of positively reinforce the community wherever possible, I would rather do this than to punish leaving. 

Another point is, B'Elanna is right.  The more friends you add, the more the friend match list becomes the old match list.  The way of tech is headed towards friend curation and filtering, and so are we.  I think it's the right way to go. 

On the point about not allowing custom game to pull from match maker, yeah we can do that.  We had it designed like that initially, and changed it because we took feedback from player testers that they would like help filling matches.  If the vet custom game creates and fine with recruiting players not from match maker, we could easily revert back to not allowing custom games to pull from match maker.  But I don't want to keep changing back and forth though, so if this is the majority will, we can do that. 

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2014, 12:39:39 pm »
The last thing I'd do is queue for a match via matchmaking without crew form, especially as long as it doesn't put me in with a captain I feel comfortable crewing for..

Offline Dev Bubbles

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2014, 01:04:58 pm »
Hi Mezhu, I know what you mean, and this is why we allow for crew form.  Yet, crew forms tend to be the worst balanced cases in the match maker right now, both substantively and perceptually, especially in edge cases where our best players crew form into them and there aren't enough novices to form a novice match.  I just got another report of this, and once again, it was a crew form match.  Herein lies the dilemma for us.  A feature like crew form is great for social interaction and community building.  Yet, it hurts our ability to balance the games. 

This is what we are struggling with and are up against.  We've tightened narrowed our match making criteria for both novice and rating balance, and hope that can help a bit.  But fundamentally, if we want to keep crew form, we might not ever have a perfectly balanced match system.

It's tough is all I'm saying.  We'll keep working and improving though. 

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2014, 01:23:48 pm »
Which is why I'm suggesting for the MM system to treat these crews differently, look for other similar stacks even within running games and attempt putting them all in the same lobby sooner or later, even if that means some of them having to wait a bit longer.. Of course that would also require no rematching but instead throwing everyone back to the queue once a game's over.

But anyway, not allowing players to queue up with their friends because they're 'too good' or 'too new' doesn't seem like a legit solution

I think that's in everyone's best interest. Experienced players who stack up together don't do it for the sake of pubstomping, they do it because that's how they're enjoying the game and, more often than not, are looking for a challenging game. And that's when they're dangerous to lobby balance- when solo queuing they're not as a significant factor in determining the lobby's balance and thus don't require any special treatment by the MM.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 01:27:03 pm by Mezhu »

Offline Replaceable

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2014, 01:43:02 pm »
Muse: "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

That is all.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Problems with matchmaking
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2014, 01:44:37 pm »
^ So we have to go back to 1.3.7 I gues...