Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Hull and armor system overhaul
Mezhu:
squid op pls nerf
RedRoach:
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 10, 2014, 11:13:26 am ---Well, you just confirmed how ridiculous "squid tanking" can be. His armor can be rebuilt in less than 2 seconds (2 engies) and then repaired to full HP. That's 230 hp in 2 seconds with a very small window to deal some real damage and no "cooldown". Or 0.75 seconds if the whole crew does it. Ridiculous isn't? Even though Squid can't fire back at this time it should not be treated as "balanced".
--- End quote ---
I never really looked at squid tanking like that. I always looked at it as "If everything's shooting then something's going to sneak in" and "We've got a free disable!"
For me, squid tanking seems absurd. Then again, haven't encountered one, but hey, life's a b----- and it'll come round to me eventually. It just feels like sacrificing mobility, firepower, and outright movement (in increasing order of people on hull) isn't the way to go. Again, if everything's shooting at it at the same time, explosives can do damage with their damage. Flame can make all the guns go to crap (and considering most pub gunnars have a wrench) and unsuable in case of tanking. Hades cannons can do a number on armor and hull. A goldfish pointing it's Hwacha at the enemy is still deadly because try blocking a 20 rocket barrage while under gat fire. Which actually brings me back to the other thing I want to talk about. Hwachaaaaas! Breaks your engines AND your guns AND your hull at the same time!
...okay maybe not so much engines, but still. Take a galleon with a merc sniper (which to my memory is a long-range piercing wep) and the same hwachas.. maybe with heavy to keep the accuracy, and badam, you've done a number on that approaching pyramidion before they've had a punch.
Back to the system, this would empower all the heavy weapons (some with lesser, some with more) the power of punching through a hull. Can you imagine the bypass? All the heavy weapons with the ability to damage a hull? That's the point of the thread though, isn't it...
Anyway, I'm gonna stop talking about the guns. I'm satisfied there. The other thing I'm going to focus on is regeneration. The hull recharging is a bit expolitable. This makes a squid's (albiet now proven to be large) hull to be a problem. If it can take quite the amount of damage, then fly away, good luck finding it if it decides to say "Screw you, I've got 125 health left" and begins flying around. Fun? For both teams, no. Will it happen? Let's look at something also involving in staying as far away from enemies as possible. Called... you guessed it, lumberjack/merc sniping. I've read several threads (some funny some pissed) about how people got bored in competitive matchess just sitting and wating for one to pop out of the clouds of Dunes. If they do that, what's not to say that tar-squid-bolts will be a problem? We've already distinguished that a squid has high hull and it's fast as hell. Trying to catch up to it in anything but? Especially if it's burning moonshine and pooping out loch mines at you? No thanks!
Wundsalz:
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 10, 2014, 11:13:26 am ---Indeed, the best way you could convince me is to find a logical argument that i won't be able to counter. So far the only thing that i wasn't able to answer is the "no need to change anything" protective behaviour.
--- End quote ---
Yeah... right. By now I'm fairly sure any attempt to convince you the "problems" you want to "fix" are game mechanics which work well and as intended is futile due to your tendency to either outright ignore arguments or to "counter" them by trying to sell bullshit as fact. Pretty much the same goes for the criticism of your system.
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 10, 2014, 12:43:07 pm ---For me, squid tanking seems absurd. Then again, haven't encountered one
--- End quote ---
Me neither.
Van-Tuz:
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 10, 2014, 12:43:07 pm ---I never really looked at squid tanking like that. I always looked at it as "If everything's shooting then something's going to sneak in" and "We've got a free disable!"
For me, squid tanking seems absurd. Then again, haven't encountered one, but hey, life's a b----- and it'll come round to me eventually. It just feels like sacrificing mobility, firepower, and outright movement (in increasing order of people on hull) isn't the way to go.
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Back to the system, this would empower all the heavy weapons (some with lesser, some with more) the power of punching through a hull. Can you imagine the bypass? All the heavy weapons with the ability to damage a hull? That's the point of the thread though, isn't it...
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The hull recharging is a bit expolitable. This makes a squid's (albiet now proven to be large) hull to be a problem. If it can take quite the amount of damage, then fly away, good luck finding it if it decides to say "Screw you, I've got 125 health left" and begins flying around. Fun? For both teams, no. Will it happen?
...
Trying to catch up to it in anything but? Especially if it's burning moonshine and pooping out loch mines at you? No thanks!
--- End quote ---
It is indeed very close to absurd. But this absurd has happened to me many times giving enough time for a third person to repair the central engines. Then i could move and drop a tar cloud or something. Some damage indeed sneaks in but not too much. It's something you have to experience yourself to believe.
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Not exactly. Heavy carronade and Lumberjack won't be affected at all. But all light guns with explosive damage would.
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1) Don't let it escape. Harpoons (reworked, i hope), engine disable etc.
2) Goldfish can (40 vs 47 m/s) chase Squid for quite some time. Mines are mines but a good Hwacha barrage and it's stopped.
On the other hand, escaped Squid leaves his teammate alone. Also, in case of CP mode you don't have the luxury of unlimited time.
--- Quote from: Wundsalz on October 10, 2014, 02:00:06 pm ---Yeah... right. By now I'm fairly sure any attempt to convince you the "problems" you want to "fix" are game mechanics which work well and as intended is futile due to your tendency to either outright ignore arguments or to "counter" them by trying to sell bullshit as fact. Pretty much the same goes for the criticism of your system.
--- End quote ---
Ahem... I'm trying to answer every more or less logical argument. Please point me to the ones that i've missed.
redria:
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 10, 2014, 02:45:25 pm ---Please point me to the ones that i've missed.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: redria on October 02, 2014, 01:41:32 pm ---
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 02, 2014, 11:43:28 am ---Do you have anything to say in its defence?
--- End quote ---
It gives me a way to fight back and validates the efforts of the pilot, gunners, and engineers.
[...]
Nothing is worse than feeling helpless. In the current system you can always escape through skills and excellent play. The proposed changes here would take away that capability and leave damaged ships feeling helpless.
Consider - you are an engineer rebuilding the armor. You finish rebuilding it and hit it with your mallet. Would you rather know that you just bought your ship several seconds of immunity from permanent damage, or would you rather watch your permahull continue to drop despite the effort you just put in?
--- End quote ---
It is an interesting thought experiment, but I would basically refuse to play main engineer on any ship ever. The main redeeming quality of main engineer gameplay (for me) is the moments you save the ship. This change would remove that option.
Additionally, I guarantee that a weakened ship could and would hide for as long as it took to heal up before entering another engagement. There are no time limits, no outside factor urging players to engage. A weakened ship has nothing to lose by hiding for 30 minutes (okay, even just 5). Pick any map and if you want I can give you the run-around for 30 minutes.
Some of the resistance you are meeting comes from the tone you take in many of your posts, stemming from experiences you have had that many on here have not had, or disagree with. It is hard to calmly enter a discussion when you start off by denying that a tactic regularly used by many posters here doesn't currently exist (retreat).
What you did post that got drowned out was something interesting:
--- Quote ---But inexperienced teams would not be punished so hard for the imperfect performance.
--- End quote ---
You sort of poke this once in a while but for the most part you leave it alone, even though it is something that has been discussed in other threads and is an open discussion.
Currently if I pay attention to my armor and hydro out of a situation every time my armor starts to get low, I can go a match against an inexperienced pilot without taking any permanent damage. This is cool for me, but probably discouraging for the other team.
Your system would change that so, assuming I didn't hide to fully repair after every engagement, I would probably be slowly whittled down over a match and killed, though this doesn't change the outcome of the match at all.
As a tool to balance the skill level between teams, this is interesting, but only if I ignore logic and don't ever hide and repair. So now instead of a quick 5 minute 5-0 match it becomes a 20 minute 5-0 match with lots of time spent staring at a wall in a corner.
You have recognized a problem and proposed a solution, but it wouldn't actually change any of my matches against less experienced teams for the better. Personally it would make the matches less fun and more drawn out. I can't imagine it being more fun for the enemy team.
Look at it from a different perspective. There have been a lot of criticisms of different factors of your system. What changes could you make/implement in it to neutralize some of those criticisms? If you think you are on to something but everyone disagrees, maybe there is a middle ground that actually has a solution?
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