Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Hull and armor system overhaul
HamsterIV:
I feel a bit of the rage Milevan expressed every time I see this thread. I have refrained from doing a similar angry post on several occasions because I do not want to feed the OP's ego.
Milevan Faent:
I apologize for my angry rant. I was upset at other stuff and it kind of bled into this. That said, I still feel like this suggestion isn't a very good one.
RedRoach:
If you guys want to go on a complete "This system is bad" rant, that's okay, but make sure you have evidence to support it, and that you stay civil. I really don't like screaming, especially in a nice community like this. Anyhow, the squid's armor is still bad, bad enough that a mortar clip or two of concentrated fie could destroy it. [Proof on both ends of high hull and crap armor: http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ ] But that doesn't justify having high hull hp.
--- Quote from: Sammy B. T. on September 30, 2014, 10:53:58 am ---Assuming 100% accuracy, unbuffed mortar using normal rounds and discounting air time delay (the mortars begin hitting the moment armor is down
Pyramidion 700 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
Squid 850 Perma
7 shots, 3.3 seconds
Junker 500 perma
4 shots, 1.65 seconds
Goldfish 1100 perma
9 shots, 4.4 seconds
Galleon 1400 perma
12 shots 6.05 seconds
Spire 750 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
Mobula 700 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
--- End quote ---
Bit of a blast from the past, but to my point, instead of showing TTK it shows how many shots could land on a ship in a given amount of time. Ignoring accuracy of course. (Tis a biggy, I know, but bear with me) A spanner can repair at approxximately .75 seconds. Multiply by 4 because squids need 4 whacks... 3 seconds. Able to pass the TTK it is. However, keep in mind, squid's horrible armor. Rest of clip, maybe continuous fire still going on from some heatsink gatling on the other pyra gun, and boom, ship just said bai. Now, let's factor in the occasional miss or so, and say the other ship was doing one of two things.
1.) Pilot booked it after armor went down and up with moonshine, or 2.) Everybody got a spanner on that thing!
1.) Pilot now has to deal with a lowered hull armor. This is the one ship where "Armor can easily tank shots" does not do fair play, and they have to be more careful now.
2.) Everybody except/including pilot can't do anything but repair. Again, more people, less opportunity to strike, but what if both engies weren't rebuilding? A squid needs it's engines, and a proper disabling blow makes a squid a sitting duck. (No offence Sammy) What if 3 people are rebuilding? No guns, can't defend, can't repair engines, such probs. 4? Damage everything on the ship. Engines, balloons, guns... because all excess damage from those goes to the armor as well. More excess damage = more chance of damaging something that isn't moving. Not to mention look out if a "slow squid tank" gets in the way of a hwacha barrage on low armor (lord have mercy if greased, but then again, who would do such a thing) , at least 3-5 rockets are going to slip past the rebuild.
Again, my view is "What ideas can we find from this?" It is not agreeing with changing, just a simple "How would this work?"
Squidslinger Gilder:
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 10, 2014, 12:00:02 am ---If you guys want to go on a complete "This system is bad" rant, that's okay, but make sure you have evidence to support it, and that you stay civil. I really don't like screaming, especially in a nice community like this. Anyhow, the squid's armor is still bad, bad enough that a mortar clip or two of concentrated fie could destroy it. [Proof on both ends of high hull and crap armor: http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ ] But that doesn't justify having high hull hp.
--- Quote from: Sammy B. T. on September 30, 2014, 10:53:58 am ---Assuming 100% accuracy, unbuffed mortar using normal rounds and discounting air time delay (the mortars begin hitting the moment armor is down
Pyramidion 700 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
Squid 850 Perma
7 shots, 3.3 seconds
Junker 500 perma
4 shots, 1.65 seconds
Goldfish 1100 perma
9 shots, 4.4 seconds
Galleon 1400 perma
12 shots 6.05 seconds
Spire 750 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
Mobula 700 perma
6 shots, 2.75 seconds
--- End quote ---
Bit of a blast from the past, but to my point, instead of showing TTK it shows how many shots could land on a ship in a given amount of time. Ignoring accuracy of course. (Tis a biggy, I know, but bear with me) A spanner can repair at approxximately .75 seconds. Multiply by 4 because squids need 4 whacks... 3 seconds. Able to pass the TTK it is. However, keep in mind, squid's horrible armor. Rest of clip, maybe continuous fire still going on from some heatsink gatling on the other pyra gun, and boom, ship just said bai. Now, let's factor in the occasional miss or so, and say the other ship was doing one of two things.
1.) Pilot booked it after armor went down and up with moonshine, or 2.) Everybody got a spanner on that thing!
1.) Pilot now has to deal with a lowered hull armor. This is the one ship where "Armor can easily tank shots" does not do fair play, and they have to be more careful now.
2.) Everybody except/including pilot can't do anything but repair. Again, more people, less opportunity to strike, but what if both engies weren't rebuilding? A squid needs it's engines, and a proper disabling blow makes a squid a sitting duck. (No offence Sammy) What if 3 people are rebuilding? No guns, can't defend, can't repair engines, such probs. 4? Damage everything on the ship. Engines, balloons, guns... because all excess damage from those goes to the armor as well. More excess damage = more chance of damaging something that isn't moving. Not to mention look out if a "slow squid tank" gets in the way of a hwacha barrage on low armor (lord have mercy if greased, but then again, who would do such a thing) , at least 3-5 rockets are going to slip past the rebuild.
Again, my view is "What ideas can we find from this?" It is not agreeing with changing, just a simple "How would this work?"
--- End quote ---
As I've stated many times, the squid's hull HP and such was tweaked after 1.2 in response to how crappy 1.2 made the squid. In 1.1 it was a beautiful advanced vessel with the perfect balance of speed, mobility, and weak armor/hull to make sure it would never be OP unless in the hands of the most skilled pilots and even then they'd have to work hard. When the retooling of weight happened, the squid wasn't rebalanced back to where it was before. There is even some who note that the engines were swapped out with weaker ones. I'm not 100% sure cause I didn't take pictures of the old ones to tell but the vessel is much weaker.
Now in response to this, Muse slapped on more hull HP hoping it would make folks happy. Then over the course of the year there have been minor tweaks which have improved it slightly but most of these were not direct tweaks but just general game tweaks.
Muse has stated they are happy with how the game is balanced. If they're happy, we've got no hope of seeing a great game again. We've got multiple ships which are a mess atm along with the squid, but they are happy. Arming timers on everything, but they are happy... This is just one of those love/hate moments with Muse. They are great people, I love supporting their product, but then theres times like this when I wish there was another game like GOIO to get into. Just goes to show that for how broken GOIO is, there is no title like it.
Van-Tuz:
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 10, 2014, 12:00:02 am ---If you guys want to go on a complete "This system is bad" rant, that's okay, but make sure you have evidence to support it, and that you stay civil.
--- End quote ---
That's the point of view that i respect. I salute you for that.
Indeed, the best way you could convince me is to find a logical argument that i won't be able to counter. So far the only thing that i wasn't able to answer is the "no need to change anything" protective behaviour.
--- Quote from: Dementio on October 09, 2014, 03:29:38 pm ---If the enemy manages to kill both of your ships, than it often takes far longer than 2-3min. to get into an engagement that is adventagous to you, which means not a meat grind. It takes even longer when the enemy moves back.
--- End quote ---
It took me 1:15 min to meet with the other team in the canyon Ambush. Galleons from both sides. Just an example from random game.
I also expect the respawn system to be tweaked a bit to make this time more concistent. It's needed for the current system too. Right now the only situation when you could exactly predict how much time it would take for reinforcements to arrive is the CP game mode.
--- Quote from: Dementio on October 09, 2014, 03:29:38 pm ---"-Hit and Run would be improved because every shot would deal some long-term damage."
But how is it some long term damage if it is repairable?
--- End quote ---
"Long-term" damage means it can't be repaired quickly. For example a gun could be rebuilt in less than 10 seconds. That's a short-term damage. For a game a few minutes is quite a substantial amount of time.
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 09, 2014, 05:20:53 pm ---I personally consider heavy weapons to be specialized disabiling tools.
I feel like if a gun with high shatter and explosion goes nuts on a ship, not only is the ship now taking considerable hull damage, but now all the guns are broken. From (albiet limited) experience, Hwacha's specailty is saying nope to "Shoot back" tactics, so I can envision all Hwacha galleons unleashing broadside after broadside to not only disable their opponents, but kill them as well.
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But I like my opinion of Hit and Run tactics more, which is piss off the enemy enough with minor disable and damage, and let your teammate with that weird dual-mort build and gats on the side obliterate them while they're busy trying to repair things like balloon or guns or engines or...
--- End quote ---
I don't think that it's a bad thing. Galleon can be easily outmanoeuvred and if you disable his engines (which are exposed when broadsiding) he turns into a big stationary target. So Galleons can be outplayed in a number of ways and i don't see a reason to make staying into his firing sectors a safe thing. Right now Hwachas on the right side of Galleon are like fireworks. It burns but it's not lethal.
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The "disabling hit and run" tactics is a valid one and nothing about it is supposed to be changed in my system.
But i have responded to Milevan Faent's message. He's complained that damage that his Squid dealt in the attack would be repaired. But he forgot that to deal some permanent damage in the current system you have to break trough armor first
--- Quote from: RedRoach on October 10, 2014, 12:00:02 am ---...
Again, my view is "What ideas can we find from this?" It is not agreeing with changing, just a simple "How would this work?"
--- End quote ---
Well, you just confirmed how ridiculous "squid tanking" can be. His armor can be rebuilt in less than 2 seconds (2 engies) and then repaired to full HP. That's 230 hp in 2 seconds with a very small window to deal some real damage and no "cooldown". Or 0.75 seconds if the whole crew does it. Ridiculous isn't? Even though Squid can't fire back at this time it should not be treated as "balanced".
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