Author Topic: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene  (Read 27662 times)

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 160
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« on: September 21, 2014, 11:24:29 am »
The following is a theory based on personal ideas and experience. It is as to be seen as a theory and nothing more. It is not an attack on anyone, but is only a theoretical thought process of the birth and potential death of Goio’s competitive scene.

The entire topic is open to discussion, further theories on the subject are welcome. Critique and addition is only making the debate better.


Before a brief description of the birth of the competitive scene can be made, I will introduce you to my theory of the current competitive scene in goio. I have named the theory as such: The pillar theory. The name comes from old discussions with various clan leaders, that the community’s active clans each represent a pillar of foundation holding up the roof which represents the competitive scene. It can be visualized as such:
 


A few definitions are needed to be understood before the theory will be explained.

The competitive scene: Is defined by the total amount of events happening currently and henceforth, this is not including inter-clan scrimmages or practices. An event that has happened is in the past and part of the history, and bears no relevance to the current competitive scene.

Active clan: Is a clan that is actively participating in the competitive scene. It does not involve clans that are casual and not participating, or clans that used to participate.

Strong pillar: Does not refer to clans being stronger than other clans, it refers to the amount of events the clan participates in. The more events being participated in, the stronger the clan is in the foundation.

Weak pillar: Does not refer to clans being weaker than other clans, it refers to the amount of event the clan participates in. The lesser events being participated in, the weaker the clan is in the foundation.

Team/clan/pillar: essentially the same in this theory, teams are products of clans or cooperation, no distinction will be made.

Understanding the theory can be simplified by the figure, if the pillars disappear the roof falls to the ground and breaks. The competitive scene survives and is only supported by the clans that are holding it up, each being a pillar of support.
It is also to be understood that pillars hold different strengths of foundation, Active clans that participate more than the other clans, represents a stronger and wider pillar, like the ones seen on each side. While active clans that only participate in some events, and biweekly or even more rarely represents a weaker and thinner pillar.
Together the wider pillars can hold the roof, but the foundation will be weak in the middle, whereas the thinner pillars can hold the roof, but the foundation would be weak from left to right. The former and current competitive scene in goio has had a mixture of both wide and thin pillars, which is what will be discussed in the analysis.
The theory can be summed up as such: The competitive scene is supported by both strong and weak pillars, each making the foundation for the survival of the competitive scene. It is supported from beneath and not from above. Simply: If there is no interest in participating in the competitive scene, it will crash to the ground.

Historic perspective:
I have arranged goio’s competitive history into three parts, the beginning, the expansion and what I call the professionalization. All of goios competitive history can be found here: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,8.0.html starting on the last page is the beginning of the cogs, while for events like claiming the fjords, you have to visit the old forums.

The beginning:
The beginning of the competitive scene was characterized by an overall weak foundation, with uncertainty of the future. A few strong clans was represented, amongst these clans was what we call the Old Gents, the Old ducks and zills merry men/merry northern storm. These three clans were regarded as the best and the strongest. In between then a lot of weaker clans were represented such as Kings Gambit (later Corvus), SMAC, Pastafarians, falconeers, polaris etc. weak clans that hadn’t reached the same level of consistency as the more organized and experienced clans.
The competitive scene itself was a weak roof, based on initial events such as claiming the fjords which was a onetime event, and the cogs which permitted more skilled teams to play regularly while lesser skilled teams were unable to play weekly. This was heavily criticized, and Cogs entered a process of change, to the point where the system in some players eyes were regarded as good, and in others regarded as confusing. Meanwhile the onetime events happening were characterized by a failing amateurism. The cogs were put on ice eventually and that marked the end of the beginning.

The expansion:
As a counter to the cogs the consistent weekly event the Sunday Rumble was introduced, and later the Saturday box special. Both events based on best of three, single elimination tournament style. It was run by Urz who alone scheduled and organized the events, with help from his usual caster staff. The events were set up as the current Sunday community skirmish. Teams signup weekly and then participate only that week, until they sign up again. A slow shift in the pillars happened during this period. The old ducks and old gents slowly became weaker pillars, and eventually disappeared due to no longer participating in the events for various reasons. Zills merry men aswell became a weak pillar, but is still occasionally participating. This however spawned new and stronger pillars in a bigger quantity. Clans like bully boys, glowwater thralls (former corvus at this point), new gents, overwatch and new ducks (the mandarins) all became strong pillars for a long period of time, with weaker pillars such as the flying Dutchmen, the celestial dragons all were weak pillars, and often shortlived teams. The competitive scene in itself became bigger and vaster, needing stronger pillars to hold it up. Eventually interest was lost from different teams, and eventually Urz stopped organizing and left the competitive scene, leaving the pillars left with no roof to support. This marked the end of the expansion.

The professionalization:
When there was nothing in the competitive scene, a few organizers and former competitive players started the Hephaestus challenge. This was greatly supported by Letonator, who came in and brought together the casting community for events like this. This era was marked by a more professional tone, and a shift away from casual handling of events. Teams themselves became obvious to this change and in some way swapped from casual play to a more professional style, in order to participate. Ranking was introduced in the competitive scene and marked a more elitist way of playing. Teams like Ryder, Thralls, Sacrilege became strong pillars holding the foundation with various weak pillars such as now overwatch, mad hatters, the clamour, holy roman army etc. Hephaestus challenge was criticized in various ways, some of them being that no event should take place while the game has problems with bugs and lag. However the competitive scene waits for no one, it is a continuous process if it stops working every pillar becomes irrelevant.
Later in the professionalization the idea of MLG was introduced as the ultimate professionalization of the competitive scene. No longer is it in the hands of the teams to be the ones organizing or discussing what they wanted, but rather an above standing institution would decide the rules and specifications wiping away the former amateurism of organization. Teams are now regarded as participants only, while organizers decide the format. It can be perceived as both a bad and a good change, bad in the way that some teams will find themselves overseen, while other teams are happy that they no longer have to discuss rule sets prior to events. This professionalization marks our current competitive scene.
The following analysis will first be based on how clans act in this game, and why they will or won’t be interested in the professionalization of the competitive scene. Using the pillar theory, if more clans won’t be interested the competitive scene will crash to the ground, whereas if there are more and sufficient teams wanting professionalization, then it will not crash.

Before giving my suggestion of what will happen, I want to briefly discuss and analyze why clans act like they do.
I am using the definition of weak and strong clans, as they are the only relevant clans when analyzing the competitive scene.
However weak and strong clans do not refer to their internal structure or their behavior towards the competitive scene. Some clans like to play casually in events, these clans are usually defined as weak. Other clans like to play with elitism, these clans are usually defined as strong. Between the two kinds of clans, we find a third kind. The third kind like to mix casual with elitist behavior, they compete to do their best, but in the process are casual towards elitist teams, the rivalry to be the best does not influence their mindset.
In the professionalization of the competitive scene, the casual clan will feel like they are not being able to participate and have fun, the weak pillar they represent will disappear. Whereas both casual/elitist and pure elitist clans will have different opinions. They are not alike in any way, they all act differently and shall be seen as individuals. The strong clans will either perish in this professional system, or become even stronger than before. This attitude stems not from participation in events, but a personal decision between each and every clan of what they want.

But why will some clans perish in this system? And why do some clans prevail? Before I give my perspective on the matter I want to stress the importance of: You cannot please each and every one, someone will always feel left behind.  Progress is something that divides players.


The internal clan issues:

Clans on the outside are easily seen as competitive or casual in their way of competing. However when you dig under the surface the clan is a living being of discussion and common goals. Every clan has individuals with different ideals, some want to be elitist while other just enjoy playing. Pressuring each other too much ends with conflict. A clan with many casual minded players will dominate the elitist players and can eventually cause a divide where the elitist players leave the clan to join or create new ones.
Analyzing internal clan issues is a hard process and can only be done vaguely. Member to member relation are an important factor, but the individual inspiration and drive to compete might be the defining factor. Clans that have been competing for a long time will eventually lose interest and inspiration in both the game and the competitive scene; it is a natural process that you cannot play the same game forever. This lack of inspiration or drive can easily be fixed by change in roster, but the nail in the coffin for the clan is when the leadership no longer shares the interest.

The external clan issues:
We are here to have fun! Or we are here to win! It is all perspective. Some players have fun by participating, and some players have fun by winning. What is important is that the player and the clan have fun playing.
I argue that a more serious tone in the competitive scene will take away the fun from the teams that just want to participate; just as well as a more serious tone will cater to the elitist teams and raise the competitive rivalry. It is good entertainment, but the teams unable or unwilling to play up to this level will be left behind.
This problem give thought to both sides, as the progress can be seen positive in an e-sports environment, but also be seen negative as the change can be too sudden and too professional. This analysis does not support a specific side of the matter; it rather states that it is an undiscussed problem. With the analysis in mind I want to discuss the future of the competitive scene, and why this sudden shift might mean its death.

Future prediction:
As with any part of the competitive scenes history strong pillars become weak or eventually disappear. The current foundation for the competitive roof is weak as a whole; there are few strong pillars and not many weak pillars holding it up.  The Hephaestus challenge was placed at a time where a lot of players were on summer vacation, and thus had more time to play the game, however the professionalization continues even after the vacation is over. The old guard from the expansion is slowly dwindling. Former strong teams like SIR, OVW, DUCKS, SAC are no longer consistent and has become weak pillars. There has been only a few new teams entering the team, and of those teams only one has shown current potential to become a strong pillar.
I argue that the disappearance of the strong pillars and the lack of new strong pillars entering the scene, ultimately leads to the death of the competitive scene. If a new guard was created it would survive, but be at the brink of crashing. I do not know what the future holds, but there are not many new teams participating in the competitive scene. New teams usually go two ways, they either become a weak pillar, or they disappear before they even stated themselves as a foundation.  The professionalization can be too much for them to handle, when the skill level is as high as it is. So they rather not play, than being beaten over and over, because there is a lack of equal skilled teams on all levels currently.

Conclusion:
The competitive scene no longer has the same strong pillar foundation as found under the expansion era. The professionalization is a sudden change amongst both new and older teams. Where older teams can be defined as the old guard is losing interest in the game, while newer teams find themselves unable to participate. The professionalization poses a current threat with lack of newer teams’ unwillingness to participate, as the old guard is slowly dwindling away. It is uncertain if this change will be positive or negative, but concerns towards the latter have been analyzed and discussed with the use of the pillar theory.
There are more intricate factors that could be relevant to this topic, however the vague analysis of the clans and teams are not giving a definite explanation as to why there are lesser teams today, or even if this will lead to the death of the competitive scene. However I presented a theory and analysis for future discussion.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:38:47 am by Skrimskraw »

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 160
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 11:39:12 am »
xemko made me observant on a inconsistency in the history, I have edited that.

Offline Replaceable

  • Member
  • Salutes: 84
    • [Rydr]
    • 19 
    • 45
    • 24 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 06:02:26 pm »
I'm certainly very new to the competitive scene (not a very integral part, either aha) but anyways, here is my 2 pennies worth.

I would love for some newer teams to come in and shake things up a bit, currently in sunday rumble etc. i seem to be seeing the same old teams week in, week out. If these teams die out then well, there's nothing supporting the competitive scene.

I have a couple of ideas why there is a lack of newer teams. Newer less experienced clans may lack the organisation to get 8 consistent members for practice and events. Less experienced/newer clans may feel intimidated. Less experienced clans may be put off by being curb-stomped my a highly organised and experienced team, casual teams may feel the same way too. Well because who likes to have the floor wiped with them.

This is a bad situation because everyone will try their best to win, so why shouldnt a highly experienced team go all out to win, this is competitive after all, this however still results in an upset newer/casual team. Which may put them off competitive all together. We're kind of stuck with it being like this in my opinion. Especially as the skill gap between newer/older teams is so high. And you cant tell people to go easy on newer teams in competitive (unless a handicap is implemented somehow?? [yeah, no])

Another potential reason for a lack of newer teams may also be due to the fact many newer teams may lack information about the competitive scene, and how to get involved etc. You cant compete in something you dont know exsists. Perhaps in game 'advertising'? And also, I think casters already do, but if not during a stream casters could talk about how to get involved.

I also would love to see some of the 'old guard' come back, the stories I've heard about 'the old gents', 'the old ducks', old school OVW, Zill's merry men, etc. The return of these teams would be very exciting :D

But even if this did happen with no new teams coming in competitive might get stagnated after a time, and subsequently die. 

Skilled players, beat the newer players who are put off and don't improve as they have a lack of desire to fly competitively, as a result they will not really/necessarily take the place of the skilled players when they retire from competitive.  Thats how I see it.

The question therefore is, What can we do about it?
(I typed a lot more and that took me a long time, as a result I likely havent seen other replies, if any.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 06:04:58 pm by Replaceable »

Offline Hoja Lateralus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 135
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 23 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 06:37:22 pm »
Firstly - great post.

I think there are less players in competetive scene because there are less players at all - http://steamcharts.com/app/209080#All
This shows we have a new low of player count. This is really disturbing. This also shows that many people came to goio but then decided to leave it - which is some indicator of game flaws. Imagine a restaurant where 90% of customers who happened to eat there never come back - what would you think about it based on that data?

Suggestion from top of my head - maybe we need to make competetive tournaments especially for less experienced players? I'd see the "Junior League" for players <1000k matches and "Senior League" for players <2000k matches - it could be just Hephaestus Challenge variations. More players at all would play competetive and therefore more people would be interested in and motivated to grow and learn.

Offline Dementio

  • Member
  • Salutes: 135
    • [Rydr]
    • 43 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 08:10:50 pm »
Another potential reason for a lack of newer teams may also be due to the fact many newer teams may lack information about the competitive scene, and how to get involved etc. You cant compete in something you dont know exsists. Perhaps in game 'advertising'?

Muse has tried giving attention to events through the "Event List" in the "Community"-tab.


The question therefore is, What can we do about it?

For example: TimmyB Tournament.
Get 4 people that fly under one teamname and you can join the tournament, even while it is already going. It is also a different mindset from other tournaments: Play for fun, instead of victory.
Compared to the Hepheastus Challenge people can join in middle of it and leave in the middle of it without feeling like they "lost" or getting "kicked out". You wouldn't have to keep 8 people going, but instead only 4 people and you get to know some of the other players in a more organized manner compared to the chaos of a pub lobby, may these players be competitively active or not. TimmyB is  also a rather short event per day, 3 matches instead of ~8 per casters the scs features, which could sometimes lead to a team dropping out because it gets just too late.

Less organized versions would be the Iron Fork and the Dev Matches (although you actually want to win the Dev Matches because of the cosmetic reward).


I wonder if it were possible to put a TimmyB like tournament parallel to a Hepheastus like tournament. The teams that want to play competitive, to win or just want a really skilled enemy team would probably join the Hepheastus like tournament, while others that want to play for fun or just can't afford to have a consistent 8 people team would probably join the TimmyB like tournament.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 08:19:37 pm »
Actually Summer was also pretty bad for some. I saw less people on during the summer than I have in the past. For some reason a lot of people either had work hours increase or they took vacations. Not only here but also in my SWTOR guild. We went into summer with close to 16 solid for Ops. Then by August we were struggling to pull even 8. Having to funnel friends in to fill. Now we're back up to swinging 16s but we did reach the point where we had a guild discussion about moth balling it till later if the Conquest expansion didn't boost numbers. Thankfully it did but at the same time, work schedules stabilized again and people seemed to come back from vacations.

This is common over the years. I've seen some summers get good populations but most tend to be lower. When I first proposed Red Skies event, I proposed it for summer for that reason. Knowing pop numbers might plummet, a 2v2 Aerodrome would function better. Interest and voice actor availability was horrific so I canned it and it eventually turned into Retribution.

A league approach is an idea, however the big problem is not that competitive is too hard, it is player involvement. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink," is the epitome of GOIO noobs. There are lots of clans in game which are huge that have no idea competitive exists.

I propose to increase awareness, there needs to be a highlight reel stream in game. Something that is in the face of a player where they can see highlights from a competitive week. Maybe even some tips n tricks videos. A GOIO TV sort of thing. Problem is, this takes work and time to maintain. You have to have folks dedicated to doing it and Muse would have to program the functionality in which might be problematic. Dunno how Unity would respond to a video stream page in game. But if Unity could handle it, then it is just a matter of someone recording, commentating, then Muse posting. Likely would be more than one person and from doing Aerodrome I can tell you, you better have a committed team doing it. Deadlines would need to be set and maintained. It wouldn't be a sort of thing you could just slap together when you feel like it.

Offline Piemanlives

  • Member
  • Salutes: 155
    • [Cake]
    • 20
    • 16 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 08:31:05 pm »
Suggestion from top of my head - maybe we need to make competetive tournaments especially for less experienced players? I'd see the "Junior League" for players <1000k matches and "Senior League" for players <2000k matches - it could be just Hephaestus Challenge variations. More players at all would play competetive and therefore more people would be interested in and motivated to grow and learn.

That's a rather 2D way to look at experience, though I guess the numbers could be adjusted.

In any case people come and go all the time, we may have less players because they have no reason to stick around, they simply aren't as invested anymore, it may be because they could never get into competitive or maybe a collapse of their friends list, having no one to play with is always disheartening. But there are other reasons, work, life taking hold etc. you can't expect someone to play the game when they're dealing with poverty.

But GoI has always had terrible retention, it's been stated over and over again in just about every form, massive discussions and all that jazz.

Now getting people to participate in competitive is another issue, I know that not every play actually checks the forums, this is a major issue I wish was not true as a lot of important things happen here. So let's take Gilder's suggestion, a video based announcement in game would go a long way to actually advertising events (such as major tournys and weekly casual events) as well as simple notices such as upcoming patches. Yes it would take a while to implement and while I wouldn't want them to take time away from co-op I do feel something like this is extremely important.


Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 02:20:21 am »
Could move the links more to the main screen with some text advertising but people clicking links in game and checking forums out doesn't seem to work that well. Heck people still don't check tutorials or read tooltips.

Hmmm...could develop it with a little GOIO world flare to it. Would need someone to dress up in a GOIO style outfit. Maybe put a green screen behind them with a looping image of somewhere in the world. Maybe on board an airship. Could film that easily with FRAPs in game then just run it in the background. Course would need someone who has experience with that stuff and the software to...wait a min, Halo has a degree in film production. Wonder if he might know...I could ask him if this got serious. Kinda feels like more of a pipe dream idea atm. Logging into GOIO with the weekly competitive/GOIO news being broadcast on the main screen by someone in character. Mouse hover over or click and boom, there it is in all it's glory.

Actually, the Ducks had Sushi and Charon who had some outfits. If it was community done and Muse just approved it and aired it, those two might be a good pair for it. Cake has some folks too that would be good. Jacob and Shadak could reprise their Baron/Princess roles :D.

Dunno how much it would do to help retention. Part of the problem is seasonal changes. Might just see things shift for the better when COOP hits. Specially if it starts to add to the lore. Being able to court the PVE crowd will be huge.

zlater75@hotmail.com

  • Guest
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 02:34:23 am »
The thing is casual is casual.. An idea would be a mini 4 team division. Every team, not necessary to be one clan, would without points, without casting play eachother for fun in a organized bracket with one ref per match. A social event. Newteams would have priority over an old team that participated most.
A social experience where the referee would not enforce competitive but rather just supervise that people are nice to eachother.
Mixed teams or active people that want to play casually. Not making any win priority but rather just participating to play against and with new people. An introduction to new clans. A relief from competitive and seriousness for the tourn teams. Timmyb is "casual" but it's still streamed, has rules like comp and has points. Not only serious points but still.. They exist.This way all teams would have 3 matches win or lose and not drop out.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:41:04 am by genozide »

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 160
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 03:31:20 am »
hey, it is awesome to see you guys having an interest, and even discussing how to save the competitive scene.

While writing this I kept thinking of causalities, and what could be the problem here.
But all the possible reasons I had would require immense data gathering to argue for.

some of the things I thought about were this:
old players are tired of the current content, this is why they no longer wish to participate
new players are unable to stabilize in both the game and competitive scene
a general idea of fixing both these problems are things such as implementing matchmaking in order to give new players a fair and skill equal experience. Another possible fix is a major balance change ala if you would see league of legends revamp half their content to draw players back into a new meta hunt. Fact is that I myself feel tired of listening to the same record of balance and meta in this game. Fact is for myself that I have played my 7 euros worth of content, and I dont think implementing a map. gun or ship would keep me interested for the future, I need expansion pack worth of content, such as coop.

It is hard to understand this mindset as both an old and new player, because we all have different values. But the old guard you talk about left a long time ago and they are not coming back.
My general though and prediction here is that the competitive scene will crash in 3 months. Personally I am tired of playing competitive, and after R&D tourney I effectively stop playing competitive, stop leading thralls and stop organizing thralls. The attitude towards this inside my clan is overwhelmingly positive, we all want breaks, and we are not willing to promise that we will return.

that is one possible theory of why old teams disappear currently, but there most certainly are other theories aswell. I dont know them, because I cannot speak for any number of clans unless I took the time to gather data about it.

no one of us can control the new players, and the player retention is alarming. You are seeing high skilled veterans and new players playing, there are no inbetween skill level because these players stopped playing. This goes back to the having fun part. The only way currently, that a new player ends up in the system and having fun, is if they tag along on an experienced clan. Clans are where the fun and the community is. But not all players enjoy this way of doing things, because it is a big commitment. and when you constantly lose, get blamed and get called noob, then why care? the only thing to do is say good game, but i played the content of this game and can move on.

as i said in my analysis the professionalization can be seen both positively and negatively. The idea of countering this progress by making a league structure or more casual events is not the solution to the lack of more teams. It quickly becomes a instance of teams keeping eachother active, while newer teams still dont show up - then later the old teams will start to fade away again.

There are so many factors revolving around this, and saying casting isnt one of them is a lie. The casters are doing a job none of us others can do, they have to entertain. good content, is the content that is semi-competitive and above, anything casual is just worthless in the eyes of the strong pillars that perceive competitive events more important. If the events being streamed arent of a competitive nature, they get second to none views. and I know you want to say timmyb is all casual, but it is heavily organized, and the point system makes it of competitive nature for some teams.
Try seeing this from a casters view where he has to entertain, if he is not entertaining enough people there is no reason to stay and the only logical solution is to move on to new projects. Letonator has done a lot for our casting in goio, but truth is that Letonator also has to protect his and his cocasters wishes of a entertaining, competitive enviroment. If this enviroment is dominated by random casual play only there is no competitive scene at all, and these casters move on because their time is being wasted.

but what is the best solution? personally I enjoyed that as a team we no longer had to go through 20 community meetings on how to make a competitive event. But as a team we suddenly also felt like we were being forced to take things more serious while playing.

I think my conclusion on these diffrent factors are that my own opinion is heavily biased by my own feelings, due to lack of actual data revolving around other teams opinions.

I myself think it is too late to save it longterm at this point, but prove me wrong. I presented you with the theory of something like this happening, and you are free to use it if it helps saving the competitive scene.
The only solution I see is a chain of things to happen like this: Matchmaking - balance change to keep new and old players interested and then coop mode as the big invitation to play or buy the game (which is now becoming 2 years old). How many of us buys a 2 year old game to play online? (just something to think about)

Offline DMaximus

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 28
    • [MM]
    • 45 
    • 25
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 08:47:43 am »
I also would love to see some of the 'old guard' come back, the stories I've heard about 'the old gents', 'the old ducks', old school OVW, Zill's merry men, etc. The return of these teams would be very exciting :D

MM is still around. Whenever we do compete, it's usually with most of the same members from the Floatsam Dynasty Era. It's just kind of hard to maintain the same level of interest in a game for over a year, so we don't play random PUGs as often. We've never been big on organized practices, so when we do compete we're not quite the well oiled machines of balloon-born death we once were. We still do fairly well, but the teams that put in the time and play together a ton tend to outperform us.


Offline Mezhu

  • Member
  • Salutes: 33
    • [Sgar]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 41 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 09:57:03 am »
Muse never seemed to fully grasp the competitive potential of the game they created, hence their casual approach to it (youtube promotions, no ranked matchmaking, lack of properly organized official tours and a clan leaderboard until only very recently etc.)

The competitive scene has always been in the hands of the community. Clans and individuals have stood up despite the lack of any competitive structure and organized their own events. Many many different people have been involved in the scene and contributed to a different extend to its' growth and survival. If community interest in it keeps dwindling, the scene is sure to sooner or later collapse as Muse haven't really ever been up to the task of nurturing and promoting it. Introduction of the clan interface and leaderboard was an exceptionally good step but having an instant view of the top 16 clans won't do much by itself. I want to believe it's not too late but action has to be taken by the next couple of sales/promotions.

It's understandable that putting more focus on the competitive part of a game could decrease the community quality. A competitive structure that's easily accessible by newer players and teams, on the other hand, would provide longer-lasting interest and motivation. Right now we're experiencing a decline, not only in average population, but most importantly in active, experienced players. Old people are leaving due to the lack of content (yes, the content is lacking- look at the number of maps, ships, guns) and new people aren't staying long enough. The average lobby quality is just getting worse with each passing day and that in turn is putting many of the older players off.

Hence my many suggestions of a ranked matchmaking system centered around ships (crews of 4). Many if not most people purchase the game in 4-packs and play it with their friends. Even for those who don't, it's easier to form a group of 4 that can queue up for a game anytime rather than a group of 8 that has to consistently practice together in order to play a bunch of games every sunday afternoon. If there was a structure that allowed you to play with your friends with and against other preformed groups of 4 players, in a casual yet ranked environment, tracking your progress and fighting for a ladder position, I'm pretty sure more people would have sticked to the game.


Offline GeoRmr

  • Member
  • Salutes: 178
    • [Rydr]
    • 45 
    • 1
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Storm Ryders
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 10:09:41 am »
The leaderboard is inadequate, it can only rank registered clans where several competitive teams have been comprised of players from multiple clans, thinking of CRRy and HRA. Not to mention it is massively out of date (pretty much was a week behind throughout the HC, is currently more than a month out, and isn't representing the current timmyB tournament) despite multiple emails to muse reminding them to update it. Muse needs to create an interface for the tournament organisers or CA's to interact with, and create multiple pages to show the results of the more casual tournaments such as the Sunday community skirmish.

Offline Replaceable

  • Member
  • Salutes: 84
    • [Rydr]
    • 19 
    • 45
    • 24 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 11:51:13 am »
Muse has tried giving attention to events through the "Event List" in the "Community"-tab.

I am aware, but evidently this isn't working maybe we could try something else, like what gilder said perhaps?

Quote from: Dementio

For example: TimmyB Tournament.
Get 4 people that fly under one teamname and you can join the tournament, even while it is already going. It is also a different mindset from other tournaments: Play for fun, instead of victory.
Compared to the Hepheastus Challenge people can join in middle of it and leave in the middle of it without feeling like they "lost" or getting "kicked out". You wouldn't have to keep 8 people going, but instead only 4 people and you get to know some of the other players in a more organized manner compared to the chaos of a pub lobby, may these players be competitively active or not. TimmyB is  also a rather short event per day, 3 matches instead of ~8 per casters the scs features, which could sometimes lead to a team dropping out because it gets just too late.

Less organized versions would be the Iron Fork and the Dev Matches (although you actually want to win the Dev Matches because of the cosmetic reward).


I wonder if it were possible to put a TimmyB like tournament parallel to a Hepheastus like tournament. The teams that want to play competitive, to win or just want a really skilled enemy team would probably join the Hepheastus like tournament, while others that want to play for fun or just can't afford to have a consistent 8 people team would probably join the TimmyB like tournament.

I agree with everything here, this should totally be a thing paired with a butt-load of advertising we can get lot's off newer clans involved which would be great. The newer clans can do the casual Tournament and as they become more experienced, and a stronger pillar then they can go serious- if they want to.

Offline Alistair MacBain

  • Member
  • Salutes: 23
    • [GwTh]
    • 22 
    • 45
    • 19 
    • View Profile
Re: a theory of the birth and death of the competitive scene
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 12:57:04 pm »
I agree with Gilder here.
The issue biggest issue isnt the player retention. It is a problem yes. But not the major one. Thats how things usually go. People come and people go.
The issue is the lack of new teams. The People coming cant maintain the scene cause to many leave.
The game has a big enough playerbase for a stable competetive scene in my opinion. The issue is that most of those players dont have a chance to get into the scene cause they dont know it exists.

The competetive scene needs some kind of advertisment in game. And not on some page where you first have to search for (aka event list). It needs it on the front page. When a tourney runs we need a big link on the first page that features the event. Thats how you maintain interest in it.
Another issue is the difficulty for new teams to establish in the scene. It takes lots of work and alot of failure to get on a lvl that you can play competetive and dont get stomped every game.
Thats the problem of single elimination. You play one game or one set of games (bo3) and youre out. Thats most times 2 stomps. That demoralizes alot. You need weeks over weeks of those to actually establish and most players dont want to take that effort. I dont blame them for it. Its hard and its not nice.
I hoped a league based system takes that out a bid. Sadly it didnt. You wouldve needed more weeks for that but that longterm commitment isnt something goio can pull of as of yet.
I'd love to get something going to get new teams into competetive and establish a stable format. But i currently neither have the time nor the ideas to make that.

Another issue for sure is the player retention. Newer players leave cause they cant get into the competetive scene and old players leave cause its always the same. Muse cant maintain the effort to optimize skrimish and develope adventure and coop mode at the same time. Thats sad but the truth. Id love to have a ton of things and id love to have coop as early as possible.

Im sure we could name a ton of other things that render the scene.