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Suggestion: crew joining during matches

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obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: sparklerfish on August 09, 2014, 07:54:42 pm ---I've never seen a match delayed because a captain was requesting a terrible loadout and the crew disagreed, only because crew refused to listen to their captains.
--- End quote ---

I'm quite happy to say that the former situation is very rare, but I have seen it, and I've seen it more than once.

I'll agree that players not listening to a captain's reasonable request is more common though.

Of course, I will also point out that in every single case of a lobby being held up while the captain was making a reasonable request, there's only been ONE crew member refusing to play along. I haven't yet seen a situation where even two crew members have disagreed with a captain who made sensible requests.

It would be nice to see something like this to help speed the process up in those rare instances where it IS the captain causing the problem.

BlackenedPies:
I could never non pilot captain a squid, kerosene and hydrogen are too important. I'm not sure how a engi squid pilot would work because there aren't any repairs near the helm, and I'm not sure what you mean by having a better view of the ship- anyone flying would have the same view. Engineer pilots are only really viable on a galleon or spire.

2 gunners is never a viable strategy except against bad/inexperienced opponents. Most guns only need one ammo and there's a reason why competitive teams almost always fly with 3 engineers. A buff engineer is much more useful than a gunner in most circumstances. Ships need engineers not gunners.

I'm talking about obeying the captain when they give loadouts. If you don't want to bring the loadout, then don't join. The captain has the ability to not start the match until you do.
Captains can make bad requests like loading the wrong ammo or dedicating crew labor to the wrong components, but if you know better then you should inform the captain (like you rightfully did).

If a captain told me to do something wrong I would first explain why it's wrong (if it required an immediate action then I would first do the right thing before explaining). If they insist on doing the wrong thing, then either call them something in your vocabulary and do what they want, or disobey and piss them off. It's your call. I'm not trying to discuss captains making bad requests, I'm discussing captains making perfectly reasonable requests.

You're lucky, sometimes I get all 3 crew members refusing to play along.

Sparklerfish is right.

obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: BlackenedSkies on August 09, 2014, 09:17:08 pm ---I could never non pilot captain a squid, kerosene and hydrogen are too important.
--- End quote ---

Non-pilot Captain NOT taking the helm with a pilot who can focus on piloting. You seem to have missed the point. The Captain isn't the pilot because he's NOT A PILOT. He's sitting up top in the middle of the ship with the better viewpoint, and doesn't have to wait for a moment he isn't focusing on his ship's manoeuvres before he can take a look at the map and work on strategising with his fellow Captain(s). He's an Engineer because he's in a position where having an Engineer is more usful than having a guy standing half the ship away from the helm and still being a Pilot.


--- Quote ---I'm not sure how a engi squid pilot would work because there aren't any repairs near the helm, and I'm not sure what you mean by having a better view of the ship- anyone flying would have the same view. Engineer pilots are only really viable on a galleon or spire.
--- End quote ---

Which is exactly why I said Engineer CAPTAIN and not Engineer PILOT. Clearly.


--- Quote ---2 gunners is never a viable strategy except against bad/inexperienced opponents. Most guns only need one ammo and there's a reason why competitive teams almost always fly with 3 engineers. A buff engineer is much more useful than a gunner in most circumstances. Ships need engineers not gunners.
--- End quote ---

Think of which guns can benefit from multiple ammo types. Gatling (Lesmok/Greased/Incendiary), Flamethrower (Lesmok/Burst), Hwacha (Heavy Clip/Burst). I just listed the first 3 that came to mind, and HEY LOOK I JUST LOADED UP A GOLDFISH. One gunner with Lesmok/Greased/Burst to cover side guns and the other with Heavy Clip/Burst/whatever focusing on the Hwacha, both with Wrench for repairs and a good Spanner/Mallet/Chemspray Engi, and you're golden.


--- Quote ---I'm talking about obeying the captain when they give loadouts. If you don't want to bring the loadout, then don't join. The captain has the ability to not start the match until you do.
Captains can make bad requests like loading the wrong ammo or dedicating crew labor to the wrong components, but if you know better then you should inform the captain (like you rightfully did).
--- End quote ---

You should inform the Captain. And I did. And sometimes, they don't listen, and keep holding up the game. By your logic, the Captain is right to insist that I do something stupid, WITHOUT needing to explain the reason why he's insisting on that, and you're saying that I'M the one holding up the game by not obeying an instruction that cannot possibly have a constructive and valid explanation. Even if I was told to bring Lochnagar to load into Flamerthrowers and Gatling Guns on a ship with no other weapons, I am willing to do that if the Captain is willing to explain the reason for their request. I'll even accept "because LOL" as a reason - not a GOOD reason, but if the Captain just wants a stupid laugh, I'm cool with that.


--- Quote ---If a captain told me to do something wrong I would first explain why it's wrong (if it required an immediate action then I would first do the right thing before explaining). If they insist on doing the wrong thing, then either call them something in your vocabulary and do what they want, or disobey and piss them off. It's your call. I'm not trying to discuss captains making bad requests, I'm discussing captains making perfectly reasonable requests.
--- End quote ---

This thread is proposing a solution to the problem of Captains making STUPID requests, NOT the non-problem of Captains making reasonable requests. You say you never see Captains making requests like that. As proven by DJ Tips N Trix, I'm not the only one who has, even though it is a rare occurence in my experience. You've clearly been luckier than me. That personal experience doesn't negate the fact that this situation CAN happen, and DOES happen. It's pretty much entirely unreasonable to expect an entire crew of a ship to all agree that their Captain is an idiot while the Captain is being reasonable and explaining their position. A Captain being an idiot is a far more likely occurence. A bad Captain being bad should have at least a moderate-to-slim chance of being pushed into the match without getting his way. Just like a bad non-Captain being bad should be stalled from getting into the game.


--- Quote ---You're lucky, sometimes I get all 3 crew members refusing to play along.

Sparklerfish is right.
--- End quote ---

I've seen times where you get one or two players not communicating at all, and one player ACTIVELY refusing to play along. I've seen times where you get one player not playing along and one player saying they should be allowed to refuse the request (usually providing reasons why, whether valid and reasonable or not). I've seen NO instance of an entire crew saying "nope, we're doing what we want, and we don't care" while the Captain is being reasonable.

I'm NOT including Captains who demand "use this loadout" in a gruff manner and refuse to consider explanations from their crew about the loadout being used. Even if you're right, THAT ISN'T REASONABLE BEHAVIOUR. You should be ASKING your crew to change, EXPLAINING why you want the change requested, and COUNTERING any reasons being given for dissent.

Richard LeMoon:

--- Quote from: obliviondoll on August 10, 2014, 01:55:34 am ---You should be ASKING your crew to change, EXPLAINING why you want the change requested, and COUNTERING any reasons being given for dissent.

--- End quote ---

-Lobbies of Icarus, 2014.

Also the reason why I will be leaving a lot of Queues of Icarus lobbies. If someone won't change on my ship, I will instantly leave. No explaining. No COUNTERING. No time for that. My ship. My rules.

obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on August 10, 2014, 09:56:30 am ---
--- Quote from: obliviondoll on August 10, 2014, 01:55:34 am ---You should be ASKING your crew to change, EXPLAINING why you want the change requested, and COUNTERING any reasons being given for dissent.
--- End quote ---

-Lobbies of Icarus, 2014.

Also the reason why I will be leaving a lot of Queues of Icarus lobbies. If someone won't change on my ship, I will instantly leave. No explaining. No COUNTERING. No time for that. My ship. My rules.
--- End quote ---

Quick explanation. Give it a minute or two, and if they don't follow instructions, leave. Or at least try explaining if the player asks (politely) for a reason why you want that loadout.

If someone says, "No, that's a stupid loadout, why would you want that?" then sure, move on if you don't want to deal with it. But if they say, "I'm not sure what the benefit of that could be over what I'm using. Can you explain how I should be using it?" then you're clearly looking at someone who wants to understand and be a helpful crew member. Would you still leave a ship with a crew member asking that question? Or would you be a bit more patient and willing to talk things over?

Telling people, "do this" then ditching when they don't listen isn't helping you find good crew, isn't helping newer players learn so they can BECOME good crew, and isn't giving you a chance to potentially find out new things yourself (unless you intentionally try out new crew loadouts regularly to see how well they perform). You may be experienced, but the game is changed with every patch, and those changes adjust how the various weapons perform. That plus the occasional shift in meta should keep it open enough for players to mix things up a bit.

I do approve of the fact that you're willing to leave immediately instead of holding up the game though. "My ship, my rules" means that if the crew doesn't like it, you pack up and take the ship with you. That's cool.

EDIT: Just for the record, I've seen a level 10 engineer who was asked to bring Chemspray instead of an extinguisher and he said "No, chemspray sucks, the extinguisher is way better. Why would you even ask that?" and I've seen a level 1 everything playing as gunner who said "I was using lesmok for long range because I've been told the speed increase also translates to longer ranges. I assumed that would help on the Hwacha too. Does the reduced recoil on Heavy Clip make that much difference on a Hwacha?"

I've also seen a surprising number of level 1 engineers and gunners claiming "I've played the tutorials (sometimes when they haven't), I know how the game works" when they're arguing with level 7 and 8 and even 10+ captains trying to explain why burst ammo in a gatling gun is a bad idea. The number of high-level players willing to say "alright captain, but what's your reasoning?" is higher than I'd have expected as well.

In contrast to the rare overly-dictatorial captains and jaded bittervets, the majority of the community for this game is friendly and VERY open to listening to and learning from one another. New players who don't listen seem to have a tendency to change their ways fast, OR to disappear.

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