Should Competitive Matches move toward Capture Point?

[RomanKar]

As my first piece of evidence, I would like to present people's exhibit 1-A: The SAC v BFS match from today's Hephaestus Challenge match.  I would link it, but there is no reason on God's green earth anyone should have to sit through something like that.  Not the broadcaster, not the players, and I would say the audience, but there really couldn't and shouldn't have been an audience.

The only way, right now, to guarantee non stop action in this game, and a winner within a reasonable time without artificial, kept outside of the game, timers, is by playing capture point. 

I would also encourage Muse to develop a new type of game mode to make the competitive scene more fun to play and watch, and through the actual game modes, promote action oriented play with timers and guaranteed endpoints contained within the game itself. 

My Clanmate is even pushing to try and have this game picked up by MLG.  If they saw that video, I'm afraid of what they'd say about that proposal, or if they'd even bother to say anything.

The game, and the skill and dedication of players, as well as, any audience we hope to achieve, deserve a better competitive standard.  Deathmatch is just not it. 

I would also suggest that Deathmatch is the most seemly of gamemodes in other games.  Even the FPS genres have small tweaks to the standard Deathmatch game mode. 

I can't be the only one who thinks this.  And I don't want to hear that this will take the long range out of the game.  Crazy King, probably the more innovative of the modes currently in the game, could employ some sniping.  But Crazy King is only 3v3.  Maybe a new 3 point, 2v2, Crazy King?

I'd really like to know what people think about this matter.

[Mysterious Medic]

Aerodrome was cool. Second Aerodrome time?

But.... to say that the current meta of GOIO is long range sniping.... ummm no... This was a complete anomaly. The top 4 teams in Hephaestus right now  GwTh, HRA, Rydr, and SIR do not snipe. Thank God the time of 2 hr long snipe matches are long gone.

[Queso]

I'd be interested to see the kind of capture point map they use in competitive TF2. 5 points. You can only capture the next point in the line, and when you do it pushes back the enemy spawn. The more points you control the more your score goes up. Additionally if you capture all the points you win. Defensive builds are still valid cause you can still just hold when you get the advantage as long as they didn't rack up too many point before that. There are always 2 points a shorter distance apart that are in focus, keeping combat constrained, but not as hectic as a single point. It also prevents the squid/goldfish speed advantage from dominating the game.

[RomanKar]

But.... to say that the current meta of GOIO is long range sniping.... ummm no... This was a complete anomaly. The top 4 teams in Hephaestus right now  GwTh, HRA, Rydr, and SIR do not snipe. Thank God the time of 2 hr long snipe matches are long gone.

I was just making the point that sniping should be a viable way to play the game competitively.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

We just need more 2v2 CP. Almost no reason for there not to be. All the current maps would work for it. Just need to add CP points.

I'm not upset about today's match. SAC played well. They didn't fall for any of our traps. We've ran similar against other teams and they fell for them every time. All about positioning and getting an opponent to move where you want them in those fights. I applaud SAC for not being pressured by the clock and playing smart.

Aerodrome 2...maybe this fall/winter. Considering the organizer situation since our guys stated they wanted to participate last time. Early story ideas are already being put down. Some of the teams know as I've listed the doc for them but simply put, the Baronies will be getting involved in the plot next time.

[GeoRmr]

Why doesn't desert scrap have a 2v2 or 4v4 variant?

[Dimometer]

It seems to me, that the OP is asking the wrong question (Should Competitive Matches move toward Capture Point?). As a competitive scene is made up of teams who compete in competitions, I would sggest therefore, the correct questions are:

•   What are the priorities of the competition organisers (and competitors)?

Are the priorities entertainment, fun, high/mid/low level play etc...

•   How should these priorities affect the rule set or structure of the competition?

For example, very long matches were not practical in competitive play with streamers and players because they were boring to spectators, hard to commentate and impractical for organising tournaments with a large amount of games in a short amount of time.

In the OP's complaint, no-score draw matches with very little action are boring to spectators and that something should be done. The OP then goes on to state "the only way, right now to guarantee non stop action in this game, and a winner within a reasonable time without artificial, kept outside of the game, timers, is by playing capture point." This is wrong.

 If a competition organiser wishes to set up a competition where the OP's scenario was to be discouraged, it can be done through the rule set of the tournament. Now I am not going to be prescriptive, I am merely pointing out some examples.

In rugby, teams gain more points in the league by scoring more trys in a match. This suggests that teams could be ranked not just on a win/loss ratio but also upon the number of kills they achieve. It would also be possible to penalise teams for failing to score a point which would encourage teams to be less passive. 

In Golf (Ryder cup), teams play different versions of the game (four ball etc..) in order to provide variety into a competition. This means that a tournament could involve not just death match but also capture the flag, or even other crazier elements (squid racing).

I think that these sort of discussions are best left to the individual competition organisers, who have their own priorities for the competitions they wish to run.

[RomanKar]

Your rugby analogy fails from the start.  Rugby is a great game to start with.  30 guys find a field and play, and people show up to watch.  No league, barely a scoreboard, not even an announcer, though the chap next to you may have to explain a thing or two.
No league rules for extra points in the league for scoring 4 tries.  No standings in the New Zealand conferance on the line, places in the playoffs, or all that other stuff that is really off the field of play.  As a matter of fact, one of the highest levels of play are the international tours.  3 games, Winner gets a Trophy.  None of that other crap I mentioned.  It's all on the field of play.  League rules, and in chat timers won't make the game better.

I'm talking about the game.  Pure and simply, played at the highest level.  And we should debate as a community of competitive players, spectators, organizers, developers (thanks the gods for this), streamers, referees, Clan Leaders, those just trying to get started in the competitive scene, and salty old birds. 

We all know the dominant mode for competitive play is Deathmatch.  I'm not a fan, under all those categories I qualify for in the above list.  The only proof I need is that when I bring up capture point for competitive play, ONE, 1, tournament came to everyone's minds. 

Deathmatch is the default.  I think that needs to change.

[Dimometer]

The Rugby union bonus point system is an example of a sport creating a set of rules, parallel to the rules on the pitch, in order to encourage an attacking style of play and attempt to score more points. This would have been done for the particular priorities of those who designed the system in the first place. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_bonus_points_system)

Another example is the qualification for the FIFA world cup, teams are seeded according to their rankings when the draw for qualification groups are made. It doesn't have to be this way, the qualification draw could be entirely random. FIFA chose for the tournament to be run their way for their own particular priorities (no matter how nefarious they might be).

This is the point I am trying to make; it is the responsibility of whomever organises a tournament to make clear their own priorities concerning the creation of a tournament with all relevant parties when forming  a rule set for the tournament.

You state that "Death match is the default. I think that needs to change." I think that is great, if you want a tournament which is not just death match, then create one. The community will be richer for it and you will get to play and watch games that you want to.

[RomanKar]

Ok. Future Hapheastus Challenges and Sunday Skirmishes should be run with something other than DeathMatch.  I am formally requesting a format change that eliminates Deathmatch in favor of Capture point.  I appeal to those organizers directly, here, now.

[Shinkurex]

The only issue with this currently, is that if this change is implemented, all our matches will be on labyrinth... or it'd be 3v3... which increases the amount of players a clan has to maintain. I understand this would also be a plea for muse to add more Capture point maps, but the Tourney organizers are working with what they have currently, not what could be in a future patch....

[Mezhu]

Next competitive events being CP, lolno.

Labyrinth being inserted into the map pool for competitive 2v2 events, hell yes.

[RomanKar]

I agree, there would have to be more 2v2 Capture points to be viable as the default for competitive play.

[N-Sunderland]

I don't think that deathmatch in general should be dropped from competitive play. We rarely see matches like the one that happened yesterday, and when we do it's almost always on Dunes. So why not just replace Dunes with Labyrinth?

[Alistair MacBain]

This is only from my point of view not an official statement from the hephaestus admins. Just to make sure ^^.

Yes the Sac vs BFS Match wasnt fun to watch. Yes I wouldve preferred a more action packed game. But how can you accomplish that?
In the stream chat yesterday there was a discussion if dunes encourages those superlong range sniping to easy and if it should get dropped out.
I'd say no. This was the first match in the entire Season that ended in a draw with no kill. I might see it as an issue if Teams start to do this on a regular bases but not if it happens for the first time.
Thats why we have a time. To prevent matches from going into endless.
But even if we removed Dunes (and i would in the same way erase canyon if id decide so) from the mappool there would've been teams that didnt like it.
Skrimskraw from the Thralls said in the chat that he would hate to see Dunes getting dropped cause he likes this map. And i cant think of any superlong range drawn out game the thralls had. Its just a different mindset teams have to use when fighting on those ranges or approaching such an enemy. Thralls shown it, Mandarins shown it and others aswell. Its possible to approach an succesfully engage a sniper team on dunes. Yes I would still like more hardcover on Dunes to allow easier movement without getting shot to a certain area (for example the line of scrimmage).
But still ... Dunes is a unique map in the pool even without looking at those superlongrange fights. I like the general idea and the map pool would be to small with only 4 maps.

Regarding the MLG thingy ...
Have you ever seen a Terran vs Terran in proffessional starcraft 2? Its a bid similiar. 2 Players positioning their army infront of each other without alot of movement besides the occasional movement of Vikings to gather visions for their tanks. Its the same. Every E-Sport Title had that. Thats how things go. League of Legends had the passive Farming style aswell which wasnt as fun to watch. Thats how things work. Fun for the viewers and effective gameplay arent always the same.

For Labyrinth or CP to work in a tournament area I think we would need to look further into it. I can remember having Labyrinth as map in a past tournament. Not sure if it was flotsam or a cogs s2 match. It was Duck vs Duck and sure it was a totally different tactic but it ended that one team was simply able to circle around the globe with one ship while the other always died on the first enemy approach. I am unsure if that was just a big mistake of the opposing duck team that they didnt manage the kill or if that was just a way to easy to do thing. Would need to further look into it to see if thats really what i want personally for a competetive match.