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[Skyward Open] Two vs. Two Deathmatch | Community Tournament

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Naviaux:

--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on June 09, 2014, 05:17:38 pm ---Well that ends my interest right there.

Thats because you haven't been properly Munked. It takes an advanced pilot and crew to pull it off, which is hard to find. You're a newbie to the community so it makes sense that you haven't ran into it. But there is an entire theory and design behind Munker (2+ Mine) combat. Sadly with the netcode problems it has made it too risky to take. If you want to see it i'll show you some time. In proper use it empties lobbies within 1 match, ally counted as well. Another reason why I don't detail it in depth for the community.

--- End quote ---

Well, if I could edit the main post, you would understand that this rule now only applies to the Javelins. And that the tournament would be on Monday July 14th, not Saturday July 14th.

Frogger:

--- Quote from: Naviaux on June 08, 2014, 03:24:52 am ---We haven't seen any valid uses for having more than one of any types of those weapons. Anytime we've seen a build with anymore than one of the above weapons, it tends to fail miserably.

--- End quote ---

Regarding the double flare, having two left side flares on a pyramidion was, and to a lesser degree still is, a viable competitive build. In this configuration, the rearmost flare serves the utility role of illuminating enemy ships obscured in clouds, while the frontmost flare is used offensively, since before 1.3.2 (IIRC) two flares would put twenty stacks of fire on an unchemsprayed component (they now add only 16). This is even more useful since the flare requires very little attention from the pyra's main engineer to operate. Now, since the buffing of the banshee and flamethrower, there a number of other good options, so it sees less use as compared to before. But it's still definitely a viable setup in certain circumstances, and indeed saw heavy use by Captain Smollett of the Paddling (Icarus's most successful team from March to November of 2013, and arguably the most successful of the Icarus competitive scene to date).

Regarding mine builds, I have yet to see one succeed at the highest levels of competitive play. It is, however, an undoubtedly effective and entertaining way to clear a pub lobby. The sudden violence of one's ship being disintegrated by multiple mine hits is certainly one of the most frustrating ways to die, and has no doubt contributed to many a new player ending their nascent airship career in utter despair, as Gilder rightly claims. However, more experienced opponents with a ranged component to their strategy can quite easily avoid this fate by simply flying backwards and refusing to engage at the mine ship's optimal range. Mine junkers are particularly vulnerable to this tactic due to the difficulty with which they control their engagement distance, which is absolutely critical in mine combat. It's also why the most effective mine ship that has yet been seen in competitive play is the Squid, which can both control its engagement distance while at the same time bring other tools to the fight instead of relying primarily on mines, which is a strategic mistake. On the whole, reliance on mines is a risky strategy, with many potential counters and a relatively limited number of contexts in which it can truly succeed vs. a prepared and thoughtful opponent. Its greatest appeal comes from the fun and satisfaction derived from its use, not from any real competitive advantage. (I should note, however, that this does change in CP maps, where they become much more viable due to increasingly claustrophobic engagements)

Naviaux:

--- Quote from: Frogger on June 09, 2014, 08:01:40 pm ----Block of Text-

--- End quote ---

Thank you for the enlightenment! I have discussed this with the other members of the tournament, and they are okay with lifting the gun limitation on Flare Guns and Mine Launchers (though, limiting it to two may prove a good idea as well).
We are still going to limit the Javelin to one gun per ship, as (forgive my lack of ignorance once again) it doesn't seem like it would be very effective if you had two or more of them.

GeoRmr:
Just because you personally can't see how something can be effective/don't think it will be effective, does that mean you should prevent other players from creating a strategy around it? None of the weapons are abusable to game breaking extent; I don't see any reason why you need to limit them at all.

Naviaux:

--- Quote from: GeoRmr on June 10, 2014, 06:43:01 am ---Just because you personally can't see how something can be effective/don't think it will be effective, does that mean you should prevent other players from creating a strategy around it? None of the weapons are abusable to game breaking extent; I don't see any reason why you need to limit them at all.

--- End quote ---

I never said that they couldn't be effective, I simply stated that I've never seen a build that had more than one of these guns work. Now, the Flare Guns I can understand now. They apply a lot more fire to things than a flamethrower does.
But we didn't restrict them because they are 'abusable,' we restricted them so we can create a more healthy tournament environment. Having a Junker with 5 Mine Launcher or even 5 Harpoons doesn't create a healthy environment, in-fact it creates a rather unpleasant feeling for their allies and possibly a hollow victory for their opponents.
Now, this being a tournament, I would hope peoples don't have this issue with their allies, not are they the people doing it.
I think what will happen is the Flare Guns and Mine Launchers shall be limited to two, where as the Harpoons shall be limited to one.

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