Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas

[Crafeksterty]

I heard that there used to be ammo types that loaded faster than others but that it could be exploited so you could use the faster reload time to load in a better ammo type... WHY IS THIS CONSIDERED AN EXPLOIT! Why not make it a feature?!

Because it would be a must have type tool then. I mean, for now, sure. But for the future, not healthy at all.

I would like ammo that reload at different rate if the auto-reload mechanic is back, because then whenever you switch ammo even mid reload, you start reloading again. But you are allowed to reload an ammo without having to be in it for the last second. So im yes for faster reload ammo if the auto-reload is back, but not in its current mechanic. Would be exploited to bits and hell, everyone would use it.

[SirNotlag]

 Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.

[Milevan Faent]

Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.

Except fire protection ISN'T mandatory, it's just almost always needed on at least 1 engineer. Unless the enemy team has a lot of fire, you could get away with just a single chem spray. A reload tool like you suggest would be absolutely necessary ALL the time. That's not the kind of thing I'd want.

[Caprontos]

I can't reply to this all short so.. sowwy..

RE: Normal Ammo

While I get where the normal ammo idea comes from, I think it would just remove currently valid strategies for certain ships (mainly junker, spire, mobula) and add little to nothing to the gunner class because he wouldn't be any more useful in most cases on guns he is not already useful on. - imo.

Consider, how does this make a captain want a gunner on a merc or a gatling gun (and really any gun you don't normally use a gunner for, and opt for third engineer) anymore then they do right now? It wouldn't change it very much I think - if at all, but it would make lesmonk useless as an ammo in most cases for an engineer, that -to be effective- has to use guns to and be in the spots that he is (at lest two spots on every ship, save rare cases).

I think instead of removing useful functions, to pretend you improved the gunner class its better to try to improve the gunner class so he is chosen for useful reasons, over the third engineer... more at the bottom on this..

RE: Loading gun at last second

Can't we have our cake and eat it to..? Why not just make it reload the last used ammo - but your free to change it if you want up to near last second?.. and make changes that happen literally last second not happen, if it means the gun will reload completely.. That would useful, if possible..

I end up having to reload because I jump in a gun to late and hit the key to switch to the right ammo thinking I will make it.. I have caused us to lose games over it.. and at lest a point.. or not getting a kill when should of.. etc..

Why mitigate one risk and add another?.. I am sure I am not the only one who has/will do this..

If an issue is, well then Player A can just load ammo X and player B doesn't need to bring it to use it... add in a mechanic that if when the clip is being reloaded, the player that emptied it didn't have the ammo that matches it goes normal.. - after typing the below this might be why we can't have our cake and eat it to haha.

----------------------------

I was thinking, what makes a gunner useful right now, he is useful on a hades, a mine launcher, and the medium guns..

Why is he useful? because he can make the gun effective at three (possibly four if normal is useful in some cases over the three other types commonly used) ranges in most cases.. which is for more useful then an engineer who can do two at best (mostly in cases you need engineers shooting), and one in most cases where a gunner isn't currently useful anyway.

But you can't just add ammo that makes the other guns useful at three ranges realistically.. because.. they do not have enough range to really get the same benefit.. engagements happen to fast for it to happen when inside gatling range.. and giving these guns more range, brings up balance issues..

So you would need to, if you wanted to go the purely ammo route, find ways to use the other two ammo slots.. that can be used quickly (if it takes to much time, it isn't going to be useful in most cases), and be useful enough that a buff hammer + more repair power isn't just out right better.

Ammo that can give you advantage positioning, like the ammo that makes the enemy unable to raise up quickly... which brings up the "time" issue... or ammo that is more effective if your maybe at 50% of the normal range of the gun.. then the most commonly used ammo.. to give gunners a two range option..


I think - basically gunners need buffed for brawling ships/ guns, they are already used plenty for sniper ships.. or at lest guns that can hit longer range. Granted you could add ways to buff gunner value on a merc (marker ammo that can mark through clouds, is an example why you might want him over a buff engineer)... mostly this is on a mobula though..


I don't think you need to remove the value of three engineers to make gunners useful.. you just have to find ways - that fit what you want to do with it - that will make the gunner valid over a third engineer for meaningful reasons... Gunner utility and gunner combat value vs "third" engineer are things that need reviewed..

Any nerf to engineer - is a nerf that effects all the spots that have to be an engineer - just as much as the third engineer that is the issue.. and won't necessarily make gunners more useful...

Hopefully that makes sense.. haha..

[SirNotlag]

Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.

Except fire protection ISN'T mandatory, it's just almost always needed on at least 1 engineer. Unless the enemy team has a lot of fire, you could get away with just a single chem spray. A reload tool like you suggest would be absolutely necessary ALL the time. That's not the kind of thing I'd want.

Correction it is ALWAYS NEEDED on at least one engineer unless you want to go down in a fiery blaze.
 Sure every gunner would take this tool, but i can see engineers passing it up for an additional ammo type because they have to be running around and cant sit on the gun to see any use out of it. This thread is about giving ideas that will buff the gunner and there is my idea! I'm not proposing some god item here, it pretty much makes reloading for gunners more interactive and more efficient, and it seems small enough in scope to be easy to implement and take out if its no fun.

Sorry to come off as aggressive but i feel you misquoted and misunderstood me,
we ARE allowed to have differing opinions.

[Myroc]

Here is my two cents on the Normal ammo being a selection, For one I am extremely against some form of crummy scavenger ammo becoming the default OR the idea of having no ammo in the guns when a ship spawns as it leaves you too vulnerable if the enemy is in your spawn point and you would get steam rolled without being able to fight back.

Point A: At roundstart, you should have more than enough time to reload all your weapons before engaging an enemy.
Point B: In the cases where you don't, your enemy is equally as affected by it as you are.
Point C: Whenever you respawn, you get the choice of where to deploy. Avoiding getting thrashed in this moment of vulnerability is as simple as not deploying in front of your enemy.

I don't think you need to remove the value of three engineers to make gunners useful.

I think that you do. The only way you're going to make gunners on par with engineers is if you make the former better at repairing, or the latter worse at gunning. (On light guns, at least.)

[AscendantWyvern]

A good solution for the normal ammo selection is to have all cannons pre-loaded with normal ammunition upon spawning. Once the initial clip is spent, it loads in the current ammo selected if not already done so.

That way all players can use the guns without panic to get their ammunition loaded, while forcing choice on ammunition type.

An interesting bonus to that is the ability to have a gunner pre-load ammunition types and letting an engineer use it afterward without losing the said type (until the clip is emptied, of course.)

[Captain Smollett]

It has been known for a long time by a lot of players that nerfing the buff hammer would make gunners more viable.  However buffing, how and when to buff and working it in to a repair cycle all while gunning is one of the few arts that engineers have.  Removing its bonus to guns would probably remove it from many ships.

Instead of making the engineers worse, make gunners more diverse.

Gunnery tools that stack effects would make gunners superior in so many instances.

A tool to make reloading go faster.
A tool to make the gun turn quicker and farther.
A tool to give longer zoom and range.
A tool to give an increase in rate of fire.

If a gunner had tools like this, he could take the scope, the rate of fire increase and lesmok.  No one would ever use an engineer on hades again.

The gunner could take reloading faster and increase rate of fire and greased rounds.  This would make a gunner far superior on gattling.

A gunner with faster turning, zoom, and faster reload/burst would make a gunner a better choice on a n artemis.

Zoom scope and reload with charged could even make a gunner a viable choice on mercs.

Giving a gunner the ability to stack effects would make them outclass engineers on guns.  While engineers could still stack their buff to a gun, gunners could stack multiple tools.  In very high team work related moments, perhaps the gunner could apply their tools to an engineers gun in the same way and engineer applies their tools to a gunners gun.

Make gunners different, but superior to engineers on gun.  Don't make engineers worse.

[Milevan Faent]

Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.

Except fire protection ISN'T mandatory, it's just almost always needed on at least 1 engineer. Unless the enemy team has a lot of fire, you could get away with just a single chem spray. A reload tool like you suggest would be absolutely necessary ALL the time. That's not the kind of thing I'd want.

Correction it is ALWAYS NEEDED on at least one engineer unless you want to go down in a fiery blaze.
 Sure every gunner would take this tool, but i can see engineers passing it up for an additional ammo type because they have to be running around and cant sit on the gun to see any use out of it. This thread is about giving ideas that will buff the gunner and there is my idea! I'm not proposing some god item here, it pretty much makes reloading for gunners more interactive and more efficient, and it seems small enough in scope to be easy to implement and take out if its no fun.

Sorry to come off as aggressive but i feel you misquoted and misunderstood me,
we ARE allowed to have differing opinions.

It is true we are allowed to have differing opinions. I am firmly of the opinion however that unless the enemy team actually has something that regularly gives out fire stacks, you could almost get away with not having any anti-fire tool. That doesn't mean I won't still want at least a chem spray, just in case, but it's not as necessary.

[GeoRmr]

It has been known for a long time by a lot of players that nerfing the buff hammer would make gunners more viable.  However buffing, how and when to buff and working it in to a repair cycle all while gunning is one of the few arts that engineers have.  Removing its bonus to guns would probably remove it from many ships.

Instead of making the engineers worse, make gunners more diverse.

Gunnery tools that stack effects would make gunners superior in so many instances.

A tool to make reloading go faster.
A tool to make the gun turn quicker and farther.
A tool to give longer zoom and range.
A tool to give an increase in rate of fire.

If a gunner had tools like this, he could take the scope, the rate of fire increase and lesmok.  No one would ever use an engineer on hades again.

The gunner could take reloading faster and increase rate of fire and greased rounds.  This would make a gunner far superior on gattling.

A gunner with faster turning, zoom, and faster reload/burst would make a gunner a better choice on a n artemis.

Zoom scope and reload with charged could even make a gunner a viable choice on mercs.

Giving a gunner the ability to stack effects would make them outclass engineers on guns.  While engineers could still stack their buff to a gun, gunners could stack multiple tools.  In very high team work related moments, perhaps the gunner could apply their tools to an engineers gun in the same way and engineer applies their tools to a gunners gun.

Make gunners different, but superior to engineers on gun.  Don't make engineers worse.

All of this, even though the thread OP said no tools. Adding more ammo types isn't going to solve the problem, new tools will.

I imagine the tools would work similar to chem-spray: click to apply when off the gun, a relatively long cool-down, and the effect stays active for several seconds.

Some names:

A tool to make reloading go faster - Reloading Press

A tool to make the gun turn quicker and farther - Oil Can

A tool to give longer zoom and range - achromatic lens

A tool to give an increase in rate of fire - Snake Oil

[Stuboi]

we could always just make weapon jams a common thing for non-gunners.

That would be interesting actually.

Perhaps different ammo types increase or decrease the chances of a weapon jamming too?

[redria]

RE: Impact... sort of

I don't mind weapons dealing Impact damage, what I don't want is that knockback given to all weapons.  If were ever the case, it'd have to be cleverly limited based on some variable like muzzle speed or explosive damage etc...  But same as above, I'd like it if it were linked to a gun.

Impact damage applies forces based on the damage dealt, correct? So a merc shot dealing 10 times the damage as a gatling bullet will apply 10 times the force (not actual numbers). But with the rapid fire and high ammo count of the gatling, the gatling would probably give more "push" over a full clip.

Perhaps 20% damage (down from 25%) or even 15% or 10%, and an ammo reduction identical to (or even worse than) lesmok. Actually, I'm sure someone could pretty quickly spreadsheet stuff and determine damage amounts and the force when compared to mines to find a nice balance where damage and force are both factors but neither one is overwhelming for any gun. Would be interesting to see which guns would shine with this ammo.

Really I just love impact damage and want more of it in the game.

~edit~
Re: jamming
I would be pretty heavily against jamming, especially if it varies between classes. Right now you are in complete control of your ship. The only dangers are the enemy and what they can do to you. Introducing the randomness of jamming (assuming it's a percent chance and disables a gun) would introduce a possibility that your perfect scenario trap gets wrecked because you were unlucky and your guns jammed up. There are ways to design around it (5% chance of a "jam", "jams" deal 5% damage to your gun, gunning tool that "buffs" a gun to reduce/prevent "jams"/damage) but it introduces a mechanic that is more random and frustrating than fun and inventive.

[Saull]

In regards to jamming. This game, as a pvp only game with heavy reliance on team work and crew cooperation, can be considered to be pretty competitive and in my opinion competitive style games and "random elements" should be kept far apart. And that can be hard enough to do without making them a feature. I mean who exactly thought that the slip mechanic added to Brawl was a needed improvement over Melee?

[Kushala Daora]

Having a shot or two with all bullet kinds and guns and ships, I've thought the balance through and I have to admit that the game's quite nicely balanced ship and gun wise. The roles and their gear, however, are a dull choice, and this is why I think this thread is necessary.

While I'm leaning towards normal ammo, I think the goal here is to make gunner as unique as other classes by modifying his gear (which consists of bullets), not make him necessary by making him the only class with useful ammunition. All combinations of crew roles should be viable.

So instead of making gunner shoot more hurtful bullets or shoot under angles no mount point can, I suggest ammo that changes the way guns shoot.

• Linked shot, a wonder of steampunk tinkering and cruelty, this ammo would cause sequential shots to be linked together in a different way in every gun, changing its role at the cost of damage. For example, small Flak would be forced to shoot in two round sequences (angles of first and second shot could be aimed), and its projectiles are linked with steel cable that would cause less damage to armor and hull, but would be devastating and entangling to equipment and engines, and may even kill/push the crew if it flies overboard. Hvatcha would be capable of launching a rocket powered net capable of stopping ship's horizontal movement (2 shots per clip max), Heavy mortar would fire heavy shells capable of pinning the ship to the ground, flamer would shoot strings of napalm, and I'm out of ideas for other guns.
  
  Overall: damage and capacity highly reduced, new tactical blocking options in return.
  
• Combo shot, a shot similar to Linked, except it would solely focus on sequential hits and sustained fire. It would benefit the quick and accurate gunner, as the last or every second shot would cause increased damage and effect if it would connect right after the earlier shots. For example, Gatling would spin up and fire faster over time while reducing the turning speed, thus making it a killer against enemies with slower relative speeds, but making it less of a defensive weapon against charging enemies. Rocket carousel would be firing rockets alternating between rockets filled with gasoline that deal almost no damage and igniting rockets, that together guarantee starting fires, but alone wear off quickly. Flamethrower would spread liquid gasoline, possibly even making a gasoline clouds at the end of the range, and at the last few bits of fuel it would spew some fire and explosively ignite the enemy ship covered in gasoline. Flak would be shooting sticky latent dynamite, and last shot would be the detonator that can cause an explosion for more damage than a flak could ever cause.
  
  Overall: A risky ammo - very high damage if the gunner shoots well, very little to no damage if the firing is interrupted.
  
• AoE Denial shot, a more defensive approach to ammo, would be focused on defending from the enemy. Almost all shots would cause a cloud of metal dust that functions like a sandstorm while blocking few kinds of projectiles. Biggest change would be to the Artemis - a slower rocket that could be remotely detonated (fly-by-wire anyone?) that would cause a very big cloud of rocket stopping, damaging dust that fades after a while. Flamethrower would have a very large cone of fire that quickly melts the rockets and shells flying within it, while greatly reducing range (probably no more than 15m). Mortar would be like Artemis but its effect would last longer or it could be more harmful. Flaks would cause smaller clouds upon hit (smaller than rockets), allowing for blocking enemies' gunners' vision.
  
  Overall: Trading range/damage for the ability to defend and deter the enemy.
  

I tried to think of giving the gunner something that works differently from changing the fire rate or damage, and came up with this. Revolution is way better than buffing or nerfing.
But, if we decide that a rebalance is needed, I propose two simple rebalance options, based on how ununique the gunner is.

• Basically, we split equipment into two tiers: a shared, basic one and a class specific, advanced one.
  In the first we would have few basic ammo types (almost all of the current gunner ammo), pipe wrench and extinguisher, and spy eye and rangefinder. Every class can take an item from the basic tier, but the advanced tier is left for the specific class.
  In the advanced tier would be the  Lochanagar shot and heatsink clip and the new ammo that we are coming up with for the gunner; engineer would have the rubber mallet and spanner for efficient fixing, buff hammer, chemical spray, and any extra options the devs might come up with; pilots would have the privilege of flight assisting gizmos and maybe a new type of optic.
• We limit the amount of equipment all classes can have to about to 4, and allow to have more than one item in the class's category. This way everyone picking would have to decide whether they would focus solely on their role or be more flexible.
  Not sure how that would work out, as the current flexibility allowed me to still be able to fight after the crew abandoned me (Happened last match, wasn't even the captain).

Edit: I know that devs already replied that making new weird shots is troublesome, but can i pleaseee get this idea considered without the extra work being an issue?

[awkm]

Steering this back on track...

It is highly unlikely that we will implement tools, passives, or non-ammo related changes to the gunner in the near future.  None of those would be testable until several months out, and don't forget the several months of testing that comes with new things.  Furthermore, it breaks several design paradigms that are in place:

- Pilots tools can only be used on helm (aside from spotting, which are the only unique cases)
- Engineers tools can only be used while running around and on components
- Gunner ammo can only be used on a gun, while on a gun

There's a lot of inertia to stay that way because of how many of our systems are architected from UI, code, to design.  Introducing tools will also introduce confusing and unclear interactions.  Don't let this discourage you, though.  Remember that we can put many of the effects of the proposed tools into ammo types.

If it really seems like we need to move towards breaking our own rules, we will.  However, at this point there are other options (more diverse ammo) that are much faster to start testing on (next week even) and don't require us to strip out larges portions of the system.


RE: Unique behaviors per gun (linked/combo shot)

Interesting ideas sprinkled through those proposals.  However, we can't do unique behaviors for each gun with 1 ammo type.  Not only would it be unclear from a player to figure out what the ammo actually did (aside from testing each gun on their own or providing a wall of text to explain it), the code is not set up to handle those very specific cases, but the reasons not to do it have more to do with clarity and opacity of what the ammo is supposed to do rather than the actual implementation.

However, there may be something interesting about rewarding accuracy and consistency of shots.  How a piece of ammo knows that and explaining that is another story   Ah, game-isms.