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Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas

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Wundsalz:
Ammo alteration request for greased rounds: reduce the projectile life-time instead of decreasing the projectile velocity. Currently the main purpose of greased rounds is a DPS icrease. On top of that it reduces the arming distance for ballistic weapons. This renders incendiary and heatsink ammo, which can be used to reduce the arming time as well almost useless.

Some remarks regarding the problems of the current ammunition system:
Currently there are different reasons to pick a certain ammunition type:
- higher DPS(clip)
- higher DPS(reload)
- higher damage per clip (to reach interesting thresholds)
- improve the weapons aim
- allow usage out of its normal field of operation
- increase the ignition chance per time.
Here's a spreadsheet which show recommended ammunition types for each gun along with a loadout recommendation for each gun.
It illustrates one of the major problems of the Gunner role: Most guns do not require multiple ammunition choices. Normal + X is usually sufficient to operate a gun efficiently. I doubt adding or altering ammunition types will change this significantly as the criterium for choosing these weapons ammunition is usually dps optimization which can be done by exactly one ammo type.

The Loadout-Recommendation-table shows that buff-engineers can outperform gunners more significantly and often in the usage of guns than the other way around. I'm talking about the pure damage output here - the engineers increased maintenance efficiency isn't even considered. The reason for this is the buff hammer which can optimize the damage output of guns and is de-facto restricted to engineers. Actually the plain 20% buff itself outperforms most ammunition types in most guns when it comes to DPS optimization. The fact that the ammo-dps boost and the buff-hammer-dps boost stack allows a buff-engineer to de-class gunners in performance with any weapon which is used to inflict a lot of damage in brief time-frames.
Nerf that god damn thing already! Remove the damage buff effect and replace it with something else (maybe an HP boost)!

In general I think all ammunition types could use a bit more of their positive effects and a bit less of their negative effects.

I do like the idea of adding normal rounds to the choice-pool for all players. This would make Gunners way more attractive for some weapons which currently run quite fine with Normal rounds + one other ammo type (e.g. mine launchers, Hades).

Crafeksterty:
There are some things i disagree with the spreadsheet, like heavy being detrimental on Gattling gun, when that is the clip to have maximum dps on maximum range, along with the gattling could aswell disable components very well.

But it is true that ammo is what makes the gunner have a hard time standing with the other classes.

That is why we want to come up with a change to ammo, and new ammo that makes you want more ammo types.
Increasing the positives is one way, but the positives is also something the engineer will abuse constantly, so lets give some detrimentals that make the user not want to use it constantly. Thats why i suggest a small overhaul to the current ammo where charge does more damage, but damages itself and fires slower and fires even slower when damaged. Greased fires quicker, but it does less damage. So it does more damage per reload basis. Incindiary actualy deal higher chance of fire damage and be usefull. etc etc.

The only ammo where you want different ammo are, Heavy Clip, Lochnagar, Lesmok. Between these 3 they are VASTLY different.
So lets give that vast of diffrence in charged, greased, incindiary and heatsink. Burst is pretty well in the middle ground of good.

And would help for an extra or two NEW ammo that are as different as heavy clip and yadda yadda are.

awkm:
RE: Current Ammo Overhaul

Yeah, this is on the table too.  I'll take feedback on those as well.

geggis:
The first I heard of the vanilla/normal rounds idea was in September last year from Mr. Mouse (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.msg42470.html#msg42470) and it just sounded so elegant to me and mechanically consistent. At present gunners sacrifice more because they have to choose a repair item to even have the capacity to fix stuff (and even then they sacrifice rebuild/repair speed and the ability to fight fire depending on what they go for). Engineers on the other hand get standard ammo and an alt with a full complement of engineering tools. Yes, they loose two ammo types being an engineer, but they don't loose the ability to gun like a gunner loses the ability to fix things efficiently.

The biggest problem with the vanilla/normal rounds idea is indeed working out how (p)reloading guns should work. Scavenged Ammo sounds like a good way of sidestepping the whole reloading issue as it means the default ammo isn't desirable and encourages all crew to exercise caution when jumping on, and perhaps more importantly, off a gun. The ammo icon could be a broken bullet or something and the gun have really dull sounds. If gunners suddenly become the loaders or ammo carriers then that pushes them into a really interesting and unique space where they could very well be multi-tasking like engineers do. Engineers alternatively, in the role of gunning, would have to be specialised or roll vanilla like a gunner has to with engineering tools (pipe wrench). It sounds excellent to me.

As for new rounds...

I've always wanted to see something that allows guns to turn beyond their default arcs. Perhaps damaging them in the process when they do. I'm not sure how bullets can influence the mechanics of the turntable the gun is mounted on but... hey, it sounds good to me.

Penetrating/ghost rounds that go through components? Could be handy against Galleons head on and other long ships. I'll leave negative effects to you awkm -- that's a science and I'm no scientist! :-)

awkm:
There was some brief discussion between me and the Lead Engineer, Watchmaker, and we're so far leaning towards looking at the Buff Hammer's effects on guns.  Buffing damage outright, or the amount of the damage buff, will need to be looked at.  We think that this will solve a lot of issues so those of you who brought up Buff Hammer, great observation.  The next step then would be to look at the current set of ammo and introduce a few new ones in the effort to push things into niches.

RE: vanilla

Again, the vanilla rounds is good idea theoretically... it just introduces a lot of weird behaviors.  Even if the guns are loaded with Scavenged rounds, a lot of people will be up in arms about it.  Basically you just start each match nerfed.  It's pretty detrimental to new players.

RE: penetration

This existed before.  The Field Gun was able to do it for a short period of time in Dev App... it was severely OP.  The functionality is still there but making it into an ammo for all guns seems risky to me.  We'd have to be smart and limit the penetration power based on muzzle speed and so forth, Field Gun being one of the most effective cases here.  Ideally, I'd prefer if it were linked to a particular weapon.

RE: Impact... sort of

I don't mind weapons dealing Impact damage, what I don't want is that knockback given to all weapons.  If were ever the case, it'd have to be cleverly limited based on some variable like muzzle speed or explosive damage etc...  But same as above, I'd like it if it were linked to a gun.




You can always change my mind though :P  Giving guns super unique functionality, and potentially abusable functionality, just feels dangerous.

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