Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
Milevan Faent:
--- Quote from: Kestril on July 07, 2014, 11:45:36 am ---A little late to the thread, but here's some suggestions on ammo types
Point Blank Ammo
+50% Primary damage.
Projectile disappears when it reaches it's arming time.
Projectile Deals no secondary damage.
The thinking is that this ammunition gives the light flak/heavy flak/hades some usefulness when the enemy gets inside their arming time. Likewise, it's not an ammo type the engineer would take, but it adds some versatility to the guns which have this ammo.
Tracer ammo
Enemy hit with this ammunition is spotted.
Hit Clouds are lit up for the life of the projectile.
-X% damage
-X% clip size.
A good ammo to spot ships. I'd mine point with this ammo. Again, this ammo is all about the utility. An engineer would not usually take this because it's not required, only nice to have.
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes X damage while fired.
(again, adds some utility to shut down clever chem-spraying engineers).
(Alternatively)
Converts hit components that are chemsprayed to X stacks of fire
If this gun is fired while chemsprayed, it converts the chemspray to X stacks of fire.
Overload Shot
Deals X% more damage to components that are buffed.
Ignites component s that are buffed with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired, it ignites the gun with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while buffed, it takes X damage.
This adds some utility to gunners and gives a clever captain and gunner the tools to shut down a buffed ship. It also gives some need for corrdination "don't buff, loading Overload/Freezerburn. ammo" In short, it gives options.
--- End quote ---
We already have the first in Dev App right now. Aside from the Tracer ammo, I don't really think these are good ideas. A counter to chem-spray will just be taken on every ship that uses fire as their primary source of damage, and will basically make fire OP and Chemspray useless. A VERY bad idea. And something that interacts with Buffing will likewise make BUFFING underpowered as well. Both of these ideas are too problematic I think.
Kestril:
I don't agree. It's opportunity cost. You get the ability to maybe shut down chemspray, but you give up keeping the gun immune to fire and extra damage from buff/charged/whatever. The gunners need some niche and autonomy and need to be able to do what the engineer can't. Those ammo types fill that role, and are too niche for an engineer to take.
Although, I don't think it will make fire OP. To pull off a freezerburn/fire combo would take about as much coordination or more coordination as a gat/mortar. Rmember, the gunner would have to aim at specific components. Furthermore, the gat/mortar kills outright, while the fire just disables. As of now, I've got no reason (other than for fun) not to take a gat/mortar or hadies/flak pryamidion, but with these ammo types, I could see running a carronade/flamer or even the banshee with a anti-chem gatling gun.
Also, I'd welcome a gunner ammunition which can help midigate or counter engineer tools. It gives the gunner some usefulness and a distinct role.
If you're worried about damage, maybe it could look like:
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes W damage while fired.
-Y% secondary damage.
While loaded, this gun takes Z% more shatter damage
Where X > Y
(Alternatively)
Has X% chance to converts hit components that are chemsprayed to X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If this gun is fired while chemsprayed, it converts the chemspray to X stacks of fire.
Overload Shot
Deals X% more damage to components that are buffed.
Ignites component s that are buffed with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired, it ignites the gun with X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while buffed, it takes X damage.
Where X > Y.
Also how does it make buffing underpowered when buffing can be applied to engines/balloon/hull as well? I don't get how one ammo type can make the entire buff tool underpowered. It's not like I'll tell my squid crew "don't bring the buff hammer, the gunner is bringing freezerburn."
Milevan Faent:
--- Quote from: Kestril on July 07, 2014, 12:04:07 pm ---I don't agree. It's opportunity cost. You get the ability to maybe shut down chemspray, but you give up keeping the gun immune to fire and extra damage from buff/charged/whatever. The gunners need some niche and autonomy and need to be able to do what the engineer can't. Those ammo types fill that role, and are too niche for an engineer to take.
Although, I don't think it will make fire OP. To pull off a freezerburn/fire combo would take about as much coordination or more coordination as a gat/mortar. Rmember, the gunner would have to aim at specific components. Furthermore, the gat/mortar kills outright, while the fire just disables. As of now, I've got no reason (other than for fun) not to take a gat/mortar or hadies/flak pryamidion, but with these ammo types, I could see running a carronade/flamer or even the banshee with a anti-chem gatling gun.
Also, I'd welcome a gunner ammunition which can help midigate or counter engineer tools. It gives the gunner some usefulness and a distinct role.
If you're worried about damage, maybe it could look like:
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes W damage while fired.
-Y% secondary damage.
While loaded, this gun takes Z% more shatter damage
Where X > Y
(Alternatively)
Has X% chance to converts hit components that are chemsprayed to X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If this gun is fired while chemsprayed, it converts the chemspray to X stacks of fire.
Overload Shot
Deals X% more damage to components that are buffed.
Ignites component s that are buffed with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired, it ignites the gun with X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while buffed, it takes X damage.
Where X > Y.
Also how does it make buffing underpowered when buffing can be applied to engines/balloon/hull as well? I don't get how one ammo type can make the entire buff tool underpowered. It's not like I'll tell my squid crew "don't bring the buff hammer, the gunner is bringing freezerburn."
--- End quote ---
Okay, let me point something out you seem to be missing. On my Flamethrower x3 Squid, I load up 3 Engies with your Freezerburn Ammo. Suddenly, what was meant to basically be a counter to my ship just became a massive target that my ship probably eats alive. In one case, I just buffed my damage with 0 downsides. In the other, I just destroyed their anti-fire protection and probably just destroyed them with easy. A flamethrower can EASILY hit an entire ship on its own. Any ammo that can be used to counter the Engineer can be made OP with large-AoE weapons.
As for the Buffing being UP, I was referring to your other ammo which interacted with Buffing. If I see even a single buff hammer on the enemy team, I immediately ask my Gunner to bring your Overload Shot, and suddenly that ship can be eaten alive by my Flamers. Doubly so if they also have Chemspray and the gunner brings Freezerburn as well. I can counter 2 enemy engineers with just 1 Gunner, effectively discouraging the enemy from bringing those tools. Why would you bring something if it will just make it easier for your ship to be killed?
That said, following the pattern Ammo is going with based on Dev App (at least for the moment), a more appropriate penalty to the ammo you're suggesting would be a straight up -% to all damage, and a big one, like -50% or more. Then, the +% would be something like +80% or even +100% against the specific conditions. This means you use this ammo, and the gun is worthless against anything but it's specialized target. Still don't think it's a good idea to have ammo that interacts with tools that are either absolutely necessary, or already kind of rare, depending on if you're talking about chem or buff.
obliviondoll:
I can think of a better way to balance those counter-buff and counter-chem ammo types.
Freezerburn Ammo
Adds 1 fire stack per X seconds remaining on Chemspray effect
Deals -25% damage with -20% (at least - maybe worse) fire chance
Overload Shot
Deals -66% damage
Deals +300% damage (applied to already-modified damage value, totals up to +25% from normal damage level) to buffed parts
That way, it would make the weapons far LESS effective for general use, so you'd have to rely on their use specifically against the tool they counter.
Crafeksterty:
--- Quote ---Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes W damage while fired.
-Y% secondary damage.
While loaded, this gun takes Z% more shatter damage
--- End quote ---
Liking this alot. It doesnt need the "If chemsprayed itself takes damage".
This is a very good tool to counter attack versus chem spraying. Forcing for a more proactive play with the chemspray itself.
This is a really neat idea!
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