Author Topic: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower  (Read 160845 times)

Offline macmacnick

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #180 on: June 08, 2014, 04:15:56 am »
I find it well enough balanced that it makes for a viable build. Also, Sammy, shouldn't you not be the one complaining, as you always have everything chem sprayed to perfection? It seems that those who should be complaining are those who don't have such a consistent coat of chemical spray on their everything.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #181 on: June 08, 2014, 02:03:01 pm »
Jane,

So let me get this straight your argument.

A long time ago when the game was so completely different that it bears little similarity to now, the flamer was really good therefore the flamer is fine now?

Mac,

As has been said keeping up chem cycles is itself a limitation. Yes drilled teams are affected less by this buff but just because good teams can deal with the flamer better than bad teams in no way makes a gun balanced.

Believe it or not, I don't think the game should be balanced around what works for me. Otherwise you'd see me railing for carronade nerfs.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #182 on: June 09, 2014, 08:49:21 am »
the point is even when the flamer was more powerful back then similar strategies were employed and effective that are available to you now. 

now if someone wants to make the argument that it makes the game less fun for the main engi to that I can't comment but as far as the ability to mitigate and counter the flamer it is easy to do

Offline macmacnick

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #183 on: June 09, 2014, 12:12:00 pm »
Flamer buff makes my chem spray hull extinguish achievement easier to do. (59/70 for that; for the gun rebuilds that come with the achievement, only 55/70, heh.)

Offline Zeubenelginubi

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #184 on: June 17, 2014, 02:47:05 pm »
First of all, let's establish that I am not currently a competitive player.  Let us secondarily establish that I have read through this entire thread, have been playing since the approximate beginning of the thread (perhaps a bit after the hotfix) and have flown with both noobs and experienced crews.

The primary argument against the current state of the flaming damage and counter has not been actually addressed since it was stated.  So let's try and keep this short while speaking directly to the topic at hand:

Balance of a specific element or tactic within a game is determined by the relative trouble that one must go to to counter said element or tactic.  RTS and certain strategy games are constantly looking at this particular equation when it comes to balance overall and GoI is no different in that regard.  Thus:

To counter a specific weapon or weapon combo in GoI one must either develop a piloting tactic to avoid taking damage from said weapon or their crew must be able to manage the damage from said weapon.  We will examine what it takes to counter some things and gauge the relative balance based on what is required for that specific combo and how it applies against other possible dangers (i.e, a tactic effective against long range, getting in close and out of arc, being effective against another ship that is also close range).  Let's examine a few specific cases in brief.  For the sake of understanding, we'll examine guns other than the flamer initially, including combinations, before moving on to the flamer itself.

1. Gat, Mortar.  To prevent damage, one stays out of range, one does not get within arc of the guns themselves or one disables the guns before any damage is sustained.  To counter damage taken by the guns, an engineer/crew must have a tool or two that can quickly rebuild and repair the hull, probably spanner/mallet.

2. Hwacha.  To prevent damage, one stays out of arc (range is less a factor here as Heavy Clip vastly increases the accuracy and range) or one disables the gun before any damage is sustained.  To counter the damage, an engineer/crew must have a tool or two that can quickly rebuild and repair the armor/equipment on the ship, probably spanner/mallet.

3. Carronade.  To prevent damage, one stays out of range, out of arc or disables the gun before any damage is sustained.  To counter the damage, an engineer/crew must have a tool or two that can quickly rebuild and repair the balloon, probably spanner/mallet, and the pilot should either watch their altitude during the initial engagement or be prepared with a tool that can slow the fall while repairs are underway, such as the Drogue Chute.

4. Merc/Hades, Echinda.  To prevent damage, one stays out of arc or disables the gun before any damage is sustained.  To counter the damage, an engineer/crew must have a tool or two that can quickly rebuild and repair and damaged components, probably spanner/mallet.

5. Flamer.  To prevent damage, one stays out of arc, out of range, disables the gun before any damage is sustained or flame stacks applied, an engineer/crew chem sprays all equipment on board within a 25 second rotation or uses heatsink ammo to counter all potential flame stacks.  To counter the damage, the crew must have tools which first remove the stacks of flame from any equipment and then repair the damage done/negate further stacks of flame from being accrued.  The latter two items are, initially, mutually exclusive from one another.

--

Everything has a counter.  Everything.  The question is for us, as players is, "Can I counter this" and the answer is "Yes".  The question for the sake of balance, however is not "Can I counter this" but "To what degree must play be altered for this to be countered".  The examples given above demonstrate, quite clearly, that a flamer, a single flamer, takes significantly more work than any other weapon in the game to both prevent and counter the damage from.

Yes, to Janeway, if your crew is 100% immaculate, the ship is coordinated perfectly and your rotations are flawless, you can essentially ignore flame damage.  If any one of those pieces is not present, you cannot ignore flame damage and it will become quite frustrating.
--

TLDR; Countering the flamer takes a disproportionate amount of preparation, in game coordination and attentiveness to exactitude in comparison to every other weapon/combo present within the game.  You cannot expect that level of play from everyone.  The problem isn't with the flamer itself, it's with preventative/counter-measures.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #185 on: June 17, 2014, 02:59:28 pm »
Yes the flamer may need more to counter than the average other gun. But lets figure out the impact of one flamer which rly isnt to high.
In a competetive or equally high skilled match maybe. But surely not in the average pub game. I face flames alot in those and even if i fail a cycle cause im lazy i can easily use the next chance and still survive and kill the enemy.

Offline Zeubenelginubi

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #186 on: June 17, 2014, 03:16:40 pm »
So what you're saying is:

1. Yes, it takes more to counter.
2. Yes, in a competitive match or high skilled match a single flamer could be very impactful due to the difficulty in countering it.
3. In lower skilled games, where you can win a match with a full AI crew, a single flamer doesn't have a lot of impact, usually.

I think practically everyone here has played a pub game or two where the flamer utterly shut down an entire ship.  Granted, we've all played pub games where someone went double harpoon Pyra and that somehow worked really well.  Yes, if you fail a cycle with the chem spray and get some fire stacks and then you race out of arc and get repairs back underway, sure, you'll be fine.  You also actually have a cycle with the chem spray, which is a skill that a lot of pub game engis don't have and the fact that you'd even have to learn an entire skill set with a specific tool for every layout of every ship being different to counter a single weapon speaks precisely to the problem.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #187 on: June 17, 2014, 03:26:18 pm »
What i say is that you get more chances than one to counter a single flamer and thats what alot of guys cal imbablance on the flamer.

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #188 on: June 24, 2014, 01:21:00 pm »

5. Flamer.  To prevent damage, one stays out of arc, out of range, disables the gun before any damage is sustained or flame stacks applied, an engineer/crew chem sprays all equipment on board within a 25 second rotation or uses heatsink ammo to counter all potential flame stacks.  To counter the damage, the crew must have tools which first remove the stacks of flame from any equipment and then repair the damage done/negate further stacks of flame from being accrued.  The latter two items are, initially, mutually exclusive from one another.

TLDR; Countering the flamer takes a disproportionate amount of preparation, in game coordination and attentiveness to exactitude in comparison to every other weapon/combo present within the game.  You cannot expect that level of play from everyone.  The problem isn't with the flamer itself, it's with preventative/counter-measures.

Staying out of range is much easier vs the flamer than any other weapon in the game because it has the shortest range.  That being said, my problem with the flamer is that it is a gun that does everything.  It:
  • Kills every component with fire stack damage
  • Disables guns
  • Forces repair cooldowns to put out the fire
  • Still gets bonus damage vs the red hull
Then again, you know what other gun does this?  The Hades Light Cannon.  I would suggest
  • Reducing fire stack damage (not its base damage) by 33-50%
  • Upping fire extinguisher anti-fire time to 5s from 3s so it can almost keep 2 things iced

This makes it just fine as a disable tool while not giving it good damage vs every component on the ship.  In addition, if you can't put out your guns fast enough, you're not going to be able to just let them die and rebuild.  They are slowly going to burn and be useless.  This gives the extinguisher a much more important use and prevents the flamethrower from wrecking hull armor, engines, and balloons so quickly.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 01:23:02 pm by DJ Tipz N Trix »

Offline macmacnick

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #189 on: June 24, 2014, 02:30:53 pm »
Guys, remember, the flamer is one of the few guns in GoIO that is not ship-build-dependent in order to counter.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #190 on: June 24, 2014, 05:14:02 pm »
The flamethrower is too good at everything, frustrating to face and fool proof.

(because my comments add a lot to the discussion :p)

Offline pandatopia

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #191 on: July 10, 2014, 01:57:56 pm »
I have to say after learning how to spray effectively, the flamer presents an interesting challenge but its completely shut down by spraying.

Flamer+gat or flamer+carro is something I am not quite sure how to prioritize however, but vs a kill ship it shouldn't last long enough.

Offline Imagine

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #192 on: July 10, 2014, 01:59:54 pm »
I think my only complaint about flamers is that the skill that it takes to shut it down using chemspray cycles is much higher than what it takes to force the chemspray cycles.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #193 on: July 10, 2014, 03:04:46 pm »
Dont think thats different for any other weapon ...
Gat/Mortar is much easier shot than countered. Carronades are easier shot than countered ...
Its the same. Flamers just outstanding cause it has an own mechanic and needs a own tool to be countered ...

Offline Imagine

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #194 on: July 10, 2014, 04:37:16 pm »
Dont think thats different for any other weapon ...
Gat/Mortar is much easier shot than countered. Carronades are easier shot than countered ...
Its the same. Flamers just outstanding cause it has an own mechanic and needs a own tool to be countered ...
Gat/mortar takes much more skill for two reasons:

1) Takes two people shooting guns. Means less people working on other stuff on the ship.
2) Mortar timing is essential. You know how much pug games don't hold their mortar shots, no matter how much you tell them to wait.

Carronades might be a better example, though I counter with the fact that it takes carronades a long time to murder with, and are almost completely negated depending on the map.