Main > Gameplay
Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
Captain Smollett:
--- Quote from: Spud Nick on January 31, 2014, 10:33:39 am ---This game is all about how you position your ship. How you use terrain, cloud cover, your ally as cover/bait. Buffing the balloon tools so you can doge attacks like Street Fighter would make positioning less important. You should not be able to hit one button and get out of a sticky situation that you put yourself in.
--- End quote ---
^ That sounds like the way awkm talks. Does awkm secretly have an alt account? I'm not advocating a return to pre 1.1 in any way but someone here must remember how much fun it was to dodge attacks like in Street Fighter with balloon tools. Someone anyone?
Thomas:
I thought it would be best just to simplify it as much as possible. Lift force is directly related to the vertical acceleration of the ship, and that's an easier principal for many to understand. The vertical acceleration is equal to Lift Force/Ship Mass. Drag is a constant in the game, although I am unsure of it's exact value. It's basically air resistance/friction that acts against the ship. It sets the maximum velocity and fights acceleration a small amount. Essentially we're neglecting the small effect on acceleration and just applying it's effect to the maximum velocity.
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1069/questions-on-thrust-drag-the-affects-of-speed-and-more/p1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MSMyEejJTw
There's a video of hydro/chute vent being used on the squid, mobula, junker, and pyra. The purpose of that video, along with the math, is to give an idea of the difference between the ships especially when hydro/chute get involved. The big concern is that ships will be rocketing up and down and summon cthulu (or something?). But that just isn't the case. In the video, (or better yet, check for yourselves), you can see that the difference in acceleration makes a big impact. Slow vertical ships are still slow, while fast vertical ships are still fast.
We're not looking to have the power of the tool increased. We're just looking to have the damage toned down to reasonable levels, and a tad more control. Not all ships need 3 seconds. Keeping it at 3 seconds benefits the slower ships more than the faster ships. The small reductions proposed would still prevent ships from overusing the tool (there's still a lot of damage and some lag time). So again, we're not making the tool stronger in terms of force increase, drag reduction; ships would still behave the same when using the tool. They'd just be able to use it a tad longer (or a tad shorter) if they so choose.
Which is to say, even with the proposed changes, you would not be seeing ships bobbing up and down at an alarming rate and fracturing the time space continuum. If they can't do it now, they won't be doing it then.
As for the trig, basically the farther you are from the target, the less effect vertical motion has on escaping their arcs. If you're within 50 meters of an enemy, a hydro can certainly seem like a daring escape. But assuming your enemy isn't a ramming pyra, but keeping a decent range for their gat/mortar combo (we'll say 150 meters), that hydo generally isn't enough for you to escape rapidly unless you're a mobula or squid. Especially if they follow upwards. The main point being that it's a powerful tool in specific situations, and much less so in others.
And again, we're not looking for a boost in the power of the tool. The proposed change I tossed out was:
Hydro: 60 dmg/s, effects last for 2 seconds after deactivation, +20% chance fire ignition
Chute: 50 dmg/s, effects last 1 second after deactivation
all other effects remaining the same.
-Also, hydrogen and chute vent have never been adjusted (as far as I can tell). The only thing that changed in previous patches was ships stats. We're not looking to change ship stats. Having the above changes implemented does not allow for dancing pyra's and galleons anymore so than they are currently capable of.
Captain Smollett:
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 31, 2014, 12:15:53 pm ---
-Also, hydrogen and chute vent have never been adjusted (as far as I can tell). The only thing that changed in previous patches was ships stats. We're not looking to change ship stats. Having the above changes implemented does not allow for dancing pyra's and galleons anymore so than they are currently capable of.
--- End quote ---
That's not quite true. The same patch that adjusted ship mass also applied a nerf to hydro. Chute vent was later nerfed 2 seperate times, 1 fairly recently.
Wundsalz:
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 31, 2014, 12:15:53 pm ---And again, we're not looking for a boost in the power of the tool.
--- End quote ---
You're asking for the tools negative effects to be reduced while keeping the positive ones as is. That's the very definition of a buff.
Regarding your calculations: You've assumed GoIO to use a VERY simplistic physical model to calculate vertical accelerations: F = m*a where you've only considered the pilots input and neglected possible influences by height and the balloons health. Unless you can back up that assumption somehow, you'll have a hard time to convince me your results are even remotely correct.
To allow you to see where I'm coming from, here's a little discussion about a different equation of motion (which I could personally see muse to use for calculating the vertical accelerations):
F = k1*a + k2*v^2
with
F: the resulting ascending force
k1: a coefficient as a function of ships mass, the pilot input, balloon health and height
k2: a drag-koefficient as a function of height, attacked surface and a geometry factor
v: vertical velocity
I hope this illustrates how hard it is to do the math behind the scene as an outsider. You've neglected a lot of possibly relevant factors which can themselves be influenced by a lot of unknown parameters.
Wundsalz:
I've just realized that those two unknown parameters of my equation could be easily solved for each ship with the date given in your table.
what's the source of that table, Thomas?
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