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Something fundamentally broken about Crazy King
Squidslinger Gilder:
--- Quote from: Frazzledragon on January 26, 2014, 10:14:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on January 26, 2014, 04:23:10 pm ---But Anglean does have chokepoints and it has cover.
--- End quote ---
Where are there chokepoints in any place but the passage around point A and around the two large ice-spikes in the south and west?
You can go from NW to NE in a pretty much straight line. From NE to SE it's just a small curve around a mountain piece but no chokepoint.
NW to SW, that ice-spike is easy to bypass and you have enormous room on both sides so that you aren't even forced to be close to an enemy.
The only half way tight spot would be SW to SE, but you can bypass that as well with ease.
And about the cover? Which of the four outer points allows you to properly hide behind anything while being on the point? The oilrig is basically just a single tower that is useful.
The Battleship requires you to sink to almost water level to do anything.
The village is just a crater and doesn't hide you and so does the oilpump.
The only real cover is the cannon-support at A, which is also partially-see-through, so you are just safe from fire, not sight.
--- End quote ---
Well literally there are no chokepoints on any of the CP maps except for Scrap and that one is just the mouth of the naut. Only one way in or out. Every point in Refinery has multiple entrances and exits and so does Anglean. Just Refinery has one famous point between E and A which is what you are probably obsessed about. Which is not really any different than the C-D passage for Anglean.
Only other point on Refinery would be the C-D route but even then there are multiple entrances and exits. It is just in a corner so easier to put your back to a wall.
Now if you consider clouds as capable of setting up chokepoints then you have many more on both Refinery and Anglean. The passage from B-C on Anglean is ripe for ambushes due to the clouds. D-E as well has a mountain ridge in the way which serves as a means to force a team into a grind. Of all the Anglean points, only B is the only very exposed one with littler cover.
Refinery, A is totally exposed from 3 sides. B would be super exposed without the clouds. C, again has clouds to help it but is very open. Same with E. D, is probably the only point with the least exposure.
The only major reason to favor Refinery is thanks to the buildings since you can hide in some but if your whole goal of CP battling is to just hide then I don't know if you are playing the right game. The hiding on point C, D, and E are pretty much exploits tbh. Ships shouldn't be able to do it and likely one of these days Muse will patch that out.
Frazzledragon:
--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on January 27, 2014, 03:40:05 am ---Just Refinery has one famous point between E and A which is what you are probably obsessed about. Which is not really any different than the C-D passage for Anglean.
Only other point on Refinery would be the C-D route but even then there are multiple entrances and exits. It is just in a corner so easier to put your back to a wall.
Refinery, A is totally exposed from 3 sides. B would be super exposed without the clouds. C, again has clouds to help it but is very open. Same with E. D, is probably the only point with the least exposure.
--- End quote ---
The path from C to D is blockable, since, even though you have multiple routes, most of them are quite narrow and interrupted by groundspikes.
There are some good spots to deploy mines.
The building at point D itself allows entrance to the point from only two directions.
Additionally one can stop people from coming from the south by putting a ship into a passage near B and from the west at E. (which favours the red team I think?)
At point A, B, C, D and E can one sink a bit lower to hide behind some metal constructions or fly behind one of the several towers (that only don't exist on C)
B would be just moderately exposed without clouds, on C that is correct.
D has a lot of metal in the way and E also has towers.
Thomas:
The only issue I have with the OP suggestion is that it would turn the capture point maps more into DM's. It would just promote even more combat around the control points, making your ability to destroy your enemies the largest factor contributing to success. Rather than using coordination and tactics to outmaneuver your enemies to gain control of the point.
For instance,
Under the current system, you might send one or two ships to capture the point, while the remaining ships attempt to slow down or distract the enemy. This division of labor requires a lot of coordination and trust between captains. When the next point is about to activate, teams can change their tactics according to the situation. Sending at least one ship to contest the point, while the others continue running interference; with roles constantly changing.
If kills helped push the capture meter or score, teams would just clump up and rush each point together. Essentially returning to DM tactics of 'kill the enemy to win'.
I think the only way to keep the essence of a control point map while fixing the problem is to always ensure that deaths are not advantageous. If you know your enemy won't spawn next to the point, you can feel safe to destroy them, instead of just maiming them; and you're less likely to feel the desire to end your own ship, or let the enemy finish you. There's an number of ways to do this, such as changing the spawn locations depending on which point is active (and how much time is left on it). As ships tend to head to the next point well before the current point stops being active.
redria:
Here are a few radical ideas...
1. Have a dead period when the match starts. No point is active, and no indication is given as to what the next point will be. After 60 seconds or something, the first point will activate. This prevents one team from having an advantage on spawn, and encourages both teams to head towards the center of the map to fight over who will have the shortest possible route to all available points. The alternative would be to make the center point always active first, so no team gets an advantage.
2. Stop the points from being in alphabetical order. Whoever owns a point when the timer ends (both teams if no team controls the point on timer end) gets a pop-up telling them which point is next. 30 seconds later the other team is informed of the next point and it is displayed on the map like normal. This means you will want to fight to the last moment to control a point. This stops the current system of completely abandoning a point if there is less than 100 seconds left to it. As the controlling team, you can't leave point and risk not knowing where to go. As a capturing team, you want to try to get in and and take that advantage away from your enemy so you can get to the next point first. The notified team can then split up and send decoys to other points to try to lure the enemy away from the actual next point while they don't know where it is going to be.
3. Make the point timer only active when a team controls the point. The full amount of points must be collected by the 2 teams combined. There will be no points where neither team collects any resources before the point moves on. This will help reduce the amount of time some crazy king maps are currently taking.
4. Bring back resource race!!
Jereven:
Warning: Wall of quotes ahead.
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 27, 2014, 08:55:01 am ---The only issue I have with the OP suggestion is that it would turn the capture point maps more into DM's. It would just promote even more combat around the control points, making your ability to destroy your enemies the largest factor contributing to success. Rather than using coordination and tactics to outmaneuver your enemies to gain control of the point.
--- End quote ---
My thought is that the penalty would be large enough where killing ships is encouraged, but not so large where it becomes the overriding factor. Plus the killing of ships isn't going to directly affect your score unless you already hold the point (at 100% full). I was thinking around 10 seconds worth of "uncontested" per kill.
--- Quote ---If kills helped push the capture meter or score, teams would just clump up and rush each point together. Essentially returning to DM tactics of 'kill the enemy to win'.
--- End quote ---
If you only have 2 ships going directly to the point and the other 1-2 going to the next point or running interference, you're still limited to losing those 2 ships and that 10-20 points or so. Furthermore, if the enemy team decides to 4v2 you on the point to secure those kills and essentially farm points that way, you're easily going to secure the next point with your other 2 ships -- a far greater point advantage overall. So there is still incentive to split your forces, especially against anyone who doesn't.
Limiting the affect only to the region near the active point means that there is still no penalty for running interference, even if you're killed in the process.
--- Quote ---I think the only way to keep the essence of a control point map while fixing the problem is to always ensure that deaths are not advantageous. If you know your enemy won't spawn next to the point, you can feel safe to destroy them, instead of just maiming them; and you're less likely to feel the desire to end your own ship, or let the enemy finish you. There's an number of ways to do this, such as changing the spawn locations depending on which point is active (and how much time is left on it). As ships tend to head to the next point well before the current point stops being active.
--- End quote ---
Changing spawn locations and my original suggestion aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact can complement each other nicely. One perk of my idea though is it's theoretically easier to implement and balance overall, as it can be one sweeping mechanics change rather than having to examine each spawn point and potentially having to add and balance more of them.
--- Quote from: redria on January 27, 2014, 10:47:50 am ---Here are a few radical ideas...
1. Have a dead period when the match starts. No point is active, and no indication is given as to what the next point will be. After 60 seconds or something, the first point will activate. This prevents one team from having an advantage on spawn, and encourages both teams to head towards the center of the map to fight over who will have the shortest possible route to all available points. The alternative would be to make the center point always active first, so no team gets an advantage.
--- End quote ---
+1 to the dead period idea. It might not encourage teams to head to the center though -- making a gamble on 2-4 of the 5 points by sending a ship to each is also a possibility. (This isn't a Bad Thing(tm), though.)
--- Quote ---2. Stop the points from being in alphabetical order. Whoever owns a point when the timer ends (both teams if no team controls the point on timer end) gets a pop-up telling them which point is next. 30 seconds later the other team is informed of the next point and it is displayed on the map like normal. This means you will want to fight to the last moment to control a point. This stops the current system of completely abandoning a point if there is less than 100 seconds left to it. As the controlling team, you can't leave point and risk not knowing where to go. As a capturing team, you want to try to get in and and take that advantage away from your enemy so you can get to the next point first. The notified team can then split up and send decoys to other points to try to lure the enemy away from the actual next point while they don't know where it is going to be.
--- End quote ---
I'm generally not in favor of amplifying any advantage the currently winning team might already have, and this would do precisely that. I also feel that accepting a minor defeat to try for a victory elsewhere should remain a valid strategy, and this hinders the "try for victory elsewhere" approach.
Due to the current nature of CP, there's always a time where a point is a lost cause simply because there's no way to turn it back before the countdown expires/enemy team wins, even if it was completely uncontested the entire duration.
--- Quote ---3. Make the point timer only active when a team controls the point. The full amount of points must be collected by the 2 teams combined. There will be no points where neither team collects any resources before the point moves on. This will help reduce the amount of time some crazy king maps are currently taking.
--- End quote ---
I actually liked the 90 minute Crazy King game we did for Iron Fork last week, but I agree that most people don't expect games to take nearly that long. That said, I don't think this would work with the current timer durations (you wouldn't even visit all 5 points on the map in a match) -- but it could if they were reduced.
The flipside is that battles in the form of "Just don't let them cap" are pretty exciting, at least for me.
--- Quote ---4. Bring back resource race!!
--- End quote ---
Before my time, so no opinions here ;)
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