Author Topic: Art meta is boring  (Read 108843 times)

Offline Thomas

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 05:22:59 pm »
Countering it really depends on your situation. It basically follows any approach for long range targets. First I'd recommend bringing hydrogen and moonshine (or kerosene).

The most difficult situation is where you have no cloud or terrain cover to dodge spots and shots alike, let alone close distance. You have a few options.

  • Fly Directly at them
Not the most ideal solution, but if you can't raise or lower you ship enough, it'll work in a pinch. Try to bob up and down a bit, and keep your front pointed at them. You're going to lose components, but your engines should be safe. Rebuild your components to just before fixed. Use moonshine to help close the gap, as they're likely using kerosene to keep distance. Once you get in close, do the last fixing after their volley and dig into them. You're going to take a lot of hits, but if your engineers stay on top of things you have a decent chance.


  • Fly above them
This only works when the distance between you and them isn't all that much. If you're far away, they can usually aim high enough to hit your for a while. Since the arties can't aim up, use this time to destroy their balloon. If it's a junker (and it probably its), it should be an easy target. Then just walk them down, continuing to pop their balloon. You can use this time to try and maneuver to their blind spot and sink down to do some real damage with other weapons on your ship.


  • Fly below them
This is actually my preferred method. You usually want a ship that has pretty good balloon cover, like another junker, a goldfish or squid. With a pyra, you'll be taking hull damage, where the galleon and spire balloons don't really provide cover from the front. The mobula for obvious reasons. As you come in low, use some moonshine or kero for speed. As you close the distance they'll have to start lowering themselves to keep the shots up. Your balloon should be soaking up most of it. When you get close enough, activate that hydrogen and sail above them, raining down damage, popping their balloon, whatever. On the change that they also hydrogen and keep pace with you, still shoot them, you're now in close range and their gunners should have a tougher time hitting your components with the rapid up and down changes.
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For going specifically against a junker with triple artemis, I'd recommend the following ships:

Spire: lumberjack, artemis, field gun, other (maybe a close range gun or a flare. Possibly another artemis if you feel like making it weird). The junker is 90% balloon and 8% dreams. This makes your lumberjack (destroyer of balloons and dreams both) super effective. You just need a good shot on it. You can use the field gun and arty to reduce their disable damage, and once they start sinking things get easier.

Pyramidion: Either a gat/mortar or artemis/field gun. You could even mix it up with a hades/flak. The artemis/field gun is the perfect anti-sniper. What you're doing is applying disable on top of piercing and explosive. The front guns on the pyra are trickier to take out than most ships. You can also power them down with the hades/flak, which will also likely pop their balloon. Then you can use one of the methods above to get in close for the gat/mortar. The big advantage is the forward facing (slim profile) guns that are harder to hit.

Goldfish: Carronade and maybe some flamerthrowers or mortar on the sides. Approach flying in low to soak up shots, you have a decent balloon and your rear engine is hard to hit even if they wanted to. Once you start popping you can use your side guns to help shoot downward to give them more problems, and probably finish them with the mortar once their armor breaks, since they're mostly busy fixing the balloon.


I can't give much junker advice, it's not my area of proficiency. Galleon tends to have too much broadside, you're a crazy easy target for their disables. Squid can work great, but your engines are easy targets and your only lifeline. Once they're down, your slim armor won't last long. Mobula might be a good option, but that's not my area of proficiency either. Although the spread out guns and rear engines make it difficult to disable the whole ship.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 05:32:30 pm »
The counter strategies to Artemis spam require a level of skill that many newbies don't have. I miss the days of meta gat/morter and even meta gat/flack. Back then your opponents would feel like they accomplished something by getting a few hits in before you crushed them.  The only thing worse than getting crushed 5-0 is getting crushed 5-0 and not landing a single shot on your opponent.

As for counter strategies:
Thomas covered most of them except the junker and mobula. In those cases you have to take all Artemis and hope your crew are better shots than the enemy. A mobula can outgun a junker with Artemis spam since it can put an extra artemis on target and it is very hard to hit two weapon points with one shot. Mobulas don't work so well when things get brawly which is why junkers tend to be preferred for the Artemis strategy.

Also a galleon charged could counter this strategy if your crew is good enough.  The trick would be to take all close range guns, accept they are going to be disabled, have your engies rebuild them to one hit away from fixed, and wait until you are point blank to last hit and unload.

All these things require a level of skill and understanding of the game that most newbie Artemis victims can't pull off. So on a whole I think the Artemis meta is bad for the game.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 06:00:32 pm »
Most tactics with ships are already explained ...
Just want to add mobula to it.
You can either run a closerange setup with double gat and mortar paired with two artemis to cover your engage.
The Artemis will disable their artemis till you are close and when you are close your double gat + greased mortar will kill them pretty much instantly.
Other option is to go double artemis with a merc and just outdmg them on the permahull.
You could also use lesmok artemis on this and just snipe them from outside their range.
Your merc already has the higher range and if you go lesmok artemis you will just outsnipe them.
They will most likely bring the standard burst artemis for maximized disable ...
Your lower deck will probably be a normal gat mortar or anything else thats closerange.

Offline ramjamslam

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 06:00:59 pm »
A couple of things

1. This topic is misleading, I actually came in here because I thought you meant that the games art is boring!  What!!  Far from it!

2. in response to

I dub the artemis as the noobtube. I tend to use them if I have a very low level crew. So if your Captain is flying a 3 artemis junker, it's because he thinks you are a bunch of noobs!

I disagree as I find trying to captain any ship with a trifecta with low level crew to be a crew management nightmare between trying to get the gunner on the bottom deck of the junker to getting the engineer to stop hitting the engines when they are at 90% health and go shoot.  I would much rather take a ship like the goldfish with only 1 gun for teaching crew.


Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 06:14:45 pm »
I like the trifecta Art junker for noob training, it leads to low stress engagements where a missed mallet/spanner timing will not doom your ship. Forcing two members of your crew to only repair is not a good way to introduce new players to how this game works.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 06:16:19 pm »
A triple Artemis Junker can be as hard to fly as a sniper Galleon or a gat mortar pyramidion.
Sure the skill minimum to be effective on a gat mortar pyra or a artemis junker is lower as on a sniper galleon but the skill it takes to perform exceptional is as high as any other build.
You can always maximize your abilities if you have a competent crew on it.

A Artemis Junker on competetive level is a really hard job for the crew.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 06:27:23 pm »
Everything at a competitive level is really hard. A triple art junker requires less crew skill at PUG levels than many other builds, especially since your victim will not be shooting back. It does require come captain skill, especially when things get dicey. When I fly for the purpose of turning a bunch of newbies into a force to be reckoned with I like to use the Artie Junker. It has one of the lowest crew skill in to damage out ratios in the game.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 06:30:05 pm by HamsterIV »

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 09:21:39 pm »
Tri art junker is one of thosepug builds like gat mortar, as opposed to practicaly anything involving Spire or Mobula, witch you need a practiced team for. And it is boring as is gat mortar. Artemis is easier to shoot than scyla or hades.

Edit: i've removed hadees banshee- that is actualy a lot of fun build.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:26:40 pm by Mattilald Anguisad »

Offline Piemanlives

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 09:38:01 pm »
If I decide I'm going to charge an Art/Howitzer build I like having someone on my front gun which is on average either a howitzer or an Artemis, I myself typically fly a brawler junker but having that one long range weapon is good in a pinch, the Artemis also has a good arc so good luck getting out of it if the enemy crew is well coordinated, as stated before, flying above the Artemis is a good idea to stay out of arc, knowing where weapons are placed is a good lobby strategy, that way you can figure out how to approach them, sure they can maneuver but you should also be maneuvering to counter them.

Offline The Sky Wolf

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Clouds
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 09:42:55 am »
Remember to use these...


Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Clouds
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 11:29:19 am »
Remember to use these...



You know, I really think this game is lacking in clouds, hopefully a dev will read this and add a few more. Especially in canyon, your ship is just so exposed with those rock monoliths on every side. One time I flew through there and could see nearly 5 whole meters ahead of my ship!

Offline Sylas Firehammer

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 11:30:15 am »
That's a big thing that Jack mentions. Clouds are an easy way to descend upon your enemies if they don't use flares properly!

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 12:18:15 pm »
I agree with this. the double junker artemis setup is very very strong and possibly on the overpowered side of the scale.

However there are ways to counter it, also you shouldn't see it as boring for your team. Part of this game is to continuesly fail in trying to beat something that you have trouble with. Keep trying and trying thats the only way to break it. find flaws in your enemies.
some examples are whats your enemy's altitude? can you approach from above? can you approach from below?
Can you use the terrain to your advantage?
Can you effectively tank 2 enemies while your ally kills them?

take this into consideration improve your piloting skills, have faith in your crew and work around their disadvantage like bad at long ronge but very able in close combat and repair situation.

Some setups require you to be very durable / mobile while other setups requires you to go in and hit hard.


This said I agree playing on the artemis ship is possibly the most boring thing I have tried to crew and pilot on, but some players enjoy it so they should be allowed to do it.
If you ask the lobby nicely maybe they will change their loadouts.


Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2013, 12:40:27 pm »
I agree with this. the double junker artemis setup is very very strong and possibly on the overpowered side of the scale.

However there are ways to counter it, also you shouldn't see it as boring for your team. Part of this game is to continuesly fail in trying to beat something that you have trouble with. Keep trying and trying thats the only way to break it. find flaws in your enemies.
some examples are whats your enemy's altitude? can you approach from above? can you approach from below?
Can you use the terrain to your advantage?
Can you effectively tank 2 enemies while your ally kills them?

take this into consideration improve your piloting skills, have faith in your crew and work around their disadvantage like bad at long ronge but very able in close combat and repair situation.

Some setups require you to be very durable / mobile while other setups requires you to go in and hit hard.


This said I agree playing on the artemis ship is possibly the most boring thing I have tried to crew and pilot on, but some players enjoy it so they should be allowed to do it.
If you ask the lobby nicely maybe they will change their loadouts.

I find flying on artemis junkers pretty fun tbh.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Art meta is boring
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 05:20:53 pm »
I know there's a huge 8 page long thread on the Art, but I'm really disappointed in seeing it wasn't nerfed/changed in this recent patch. I loved this game the first week I discovered it: noobs everywhere, tons of crazy ship and weapon combinations and learning the game was awesome. There were tons of low ranks to play with and so many different strategies to discover and learn with. Now I log in to nothing but rank 10+ clan tryhards in the only 4 games available and they're all using Art metas. It's so boring. I've played this game for less than a week and I'm already bored and tired of it. During peak hours, it's not much different. Maybe 8 games available with clan stacking everywhere.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Mithron, you are the reason I made that thread. I knew this Art spamming was having an effect on people new to the game and its a negative one.

There is a lot of counters but at the same time some maps and ships make them not very viable. Heck I took a Squid against an Artmobby last night. Granted my crew was rubbish but it should have had the speed and capability to counter the mobby. On the other hand, the mobby stayed at altitude often. It knew the weaknesses of the arts. It also set up in a location which favored a view from all sides. Downed him twice but at the cost of my ally dying about 4x. But just could not approach without Ally being a meatshield as you just can't climb to get over arcs with a vessel that is at ceiling. Also with the Squid being as piss poor as it is now. Add in an inept crew into the mix and you just get a recipe for fail.

That is a factor a lot of these guys who hump their arts forget is, yeah there is counters but getting those counters to work in pug matches is another thing entirely. When you have crappy crews, moronic allies, and generally players who make AI's look godlike...all the talk of counters in the world does nothing.

This in turn degrades the enjoyment of the game. Muse has been testing some Art changes and from what I've heard they are just what I was hoping to avoid. Turning the Art into a waste of a gun mount instead of just slight tuning to make it not as OP.