Game Duration in the Competitive Scene

[-Mad Maverick-]

Sorry you do not appreciate our play style, but it is just a part of GOIO as any other build. If you discriminate against certain types of builds, and start dictating to others how they should play a game, I don't think we will compete at the Rumble or any event in which play is dictated. I may not always like how hockey teams play, but alas I do not control their coaching or their outcomes and I understand I am merely choosing to spectate a world much larger than my own. I for one was thoroughly engaged during the matches, as well as watching the replay. There was a lull at the end of game 2. I can understand fatigue on the part of the commentators, but for us up until end the game was an extremely intense series of gunning and jockeying for superior positioning. Maybe the commentators didn't impart or didn't know the amount of intensity we felt down there to you guys, but it's hardly boring. We're not down there sipping tea and lazily taking pot shots. It's constant focus and talking between crew and captain, captain and captain. Syncing movements, coordinating baiting, flanks, when to hit and where.

I would also like to point out that you have about 13 somewhat active teams right now, most of which brawl. In almost any game, in almost any tournament you watch brawling. Doesn't that get boring?! It's the same old. I've watched it. We are trying to bring back another style of the game, and we've been doing it long before this patch. Again, you may not like it, or appreciate it, but it is a valid form of this game and one that takes a high level of skill and communication. Isn't that why people watch competitive, to see a higher level of skill? I thoroughly enjoy re-watching and seeing how both teams were fighting for any minor edge and constantly testing each others skill, and fortitude. So you may not have enjoyed it, but that doesn't make it invalid way to compete.

i agree play style should not be dictated in any form

a time limit PERHAPS but certainly not a disallowing of any play style!

with that aside long drawn out matches that take 3 hours are generally accepted as boring and is not good for viewership. as the NHL(which you referenced) knows, and that is why it is constantly tweeking rules and equipment (smaller goalie pads, mulling over wider nets) things to get more entertaining games(i.e. more offense)...

[Byron Cavendish]

That's an interesting point. However the pads have only gotten bigger, and the nets smaller. This has made offense even harder, the games closer, and the skill level required higher. Kind of applicable suppose. Like I said, if we take an hour in a game I don't mind if that's the only game we play instead of 2 or 3. But we should be given respect in that game to allow it to progress at our pace.

As an observation for the streamers, when we are in drawn out long range battles, the camera was usually focused far from the battle in a general overlook of all 4 ships. I think that disengages the viewers from the battle. If you focus on each individual ship and watch our movements, you'll give the audience a view of how much action is actually going on, and the flurry of activity on each ship as we test each other. There was so much going on there that they didn't get to see, and they may be adding to the frustration. Hop from ship to ship, show them what each ship is doing.

[Dimometer]

It is critical within sniping match-ups that the accuracy of shots is high, so the dps is high enough to kill their target. However, when you consider the damage output of the hades and the amount of  missed hades shots when the target ship was just about to die, it would seem that as teams get better at using the hades, it will be less likely that games will near this length again.

[Byron Cavendish]

It is critical within sniping match-ups that the accuracy of shots is high, so the dps is high enough to kill their target. However, when you consider the damage output of the hades and the amount of  missed hades shots when the target ship was just about to die, it would seem that as teams get better at using the hades, it will be less likely that games will near this length again.

This is true. As Urz pointed out, we were using a brand new build. We actually had been prepping it for use against the Paddling's build. I didn't put as much thought going into the first match as I should have. In the second game the Hades went back to the close range side of my junker, and I replaced it on the long range side with a merc. That gave me more punch, but the triple artemi was hard to battle. Being new to using the junker in long range games, I hadn't considered a trifecta as I knew previously that the hades arc wouldn't sync with it. After reviewing the match I now have triple artemi.

[Imagine]

That's an interesting point. However the pads have only gotten bigger, and the nets smaller. This has made offense even harder, the games closer, and the skill level required higher. Kind of applicable suppose. Like I said, if we take an hour in a game I don't mind if that's the only game we play instead of 2 or 3. But we should be given respect in that game to allow it to progress at our pace.

As an observation for the streamers, when we are in drawn out long range battles, the camera was usually focused far from the battle in a general overlook of all 4 ships. I think that disengages the viewers from the battle. If you focus on each individual ship and watch our movements, you'll give the audience a view of how much action is actually going on, and the flurry of activity on each ship as we test each other. There was so much going on there that they didn't get to see, and they may be adding to the frustration. Hop from ship to ship, show them what each ship is doing.

Regardless of how you show off the match, it still took three hours or so, and directly led to the rumble not being completed as other teams just couldn't stick around any more. Yes, you're free to play how you want, but it's still what led to an overly drawn out match which no one, including the teams in it judging by lobby chat and the fact that you guys went strictly brawl in the last game, actually wanted.

Is anyone actually to blame here? Probably not, this has been an issue for as long as I can remember competitive games being shown off, but the point here is that no matter how you try to frame to match on a stream, when it stretches for the lenght of time as it did, you just can't keep it exciting the entire time.

[Byron Cavendish]

Imagine, I never said it would make it more exciting. I was pointing out that a distant view of the battle missed a lot of subtlety that was going on. The viewers weren't always aware what was going on each ship. There is a lot of missed action and decision making. As competitors, when we enter a competition our first priority isn't to make a game short and exciting. It's to win, at any cost. I thought as a production for a game with sniping as feature, you might be prepared for this eventuality. If you give my team a disclaimer emphasizing that our role is to entertain first and not to compete we will know you expect something from us that we aren't willing to give next time. That way you can save yourself the suffering of our play style. As for the final match, we were willing to continue our play style. Our opponents clearly were not; being sportsmanlike, and out of respect for their recent performance, we obliged them. If you wish for us to continue participating in your production you should expect to see the same style.

[Shinkurex]

Alrighty. First off, I believe that I've been on all sides of this coin, and I would like to put in my two cents. First as a competitor, I'd like to say that yes the sniping game is intense. The tactic stretches everyone to their limits, and it is a fun strategy when done right. As a competitor, when other teams in our bracket run the long game, and force my team to wait, it get frustrating, as all that time to warm-up my guys is wasted. They've been sitting for 3 hours waiting for our time to shine. I'm not going to go into pubs to keep my team warm on the off chance that we miss our turn in the tourney.

As a Spectator, These matches are boring. I agree that there could be some more close ups on the ships themselves, but that would not fix anything. there's only so many times you can cycle between ships before spectators will get bored again. long matches are not beneficial to keeping a viewer base for tournaments

As a co-caster... yeah, so I may have not casted a long match, but I have experienced this side of the coin. One thing that I do want to stress is that Casters are looking for numbers. They absolutely want entertaining, because that's what gets, and keeps viewers tuned in to the stream.

Tournament Organizers rely on Casters to produce their tourneys... Casters rely on players to keep the games they stream interesting so that they do not lost spectators. If spectators lose interest, then casters will not cast. No casters to cast means that TO will not create tournaments. No tournaments = no competitive play.

TL;DR all competitive teams are entertainers.

[Shinkurex]

Now on a moderator note:

This thread is for signups for a rumble that has already happened. If desired, I can split this discussion off so that we do not break any forum rules.

Thanks,
Shink

[Piemanlives]

That would probably be advisable if the parties involved are ok with it, that way other signups aren't pushed below it.

[Shinkurex]

Topic split to keep things organized

[Wundsalz]

First off: Thanks for the match, Gents! Thanks for enduring it, casters and viewers and I'd like to apologize to the teams, which evenings we've ruined.

My two cents on the match:
We've never played a full sniper loadout capeable of outsniping sniper builds. The gents have got one of the best sniper loadouts out there and know how to use it - hence I think it was  a good time for us to give it a try.
Also I've recalled a comment (form brick, I think) who referred to the Gents sniper loadout as a "lost art form"(or something along the line). An opinion for which I've got rather mixed feelings. I was kind of happy to be able to illustrate what happens to matches if both teams refuse to engage. Note though that we've not intentionally streched the matches to make a point. The duration of the matches has been a result of a consequent commitment to the most efficient playstyle of the chosen builds.

On a more general note:
I personally didn't play a lot since the release of the latest patch, but from what I've seen so far brawling has been significantly nerfed by reducing the overall efficiency of mid-close range weapons and due to the range nerf of close range weapons in particular. Hence close range tactics are way less efficient - These days it's just way riskier to rush in through sniper fire relying on that quick close range kill, especially if your opponent knows how to keep their ships in shape. Overall I think the balance has been shifted in favour of all those classical long range weapons - merc, arte, hades, heavy flak and Lumber - especially with regards to the competitive scene. While some of those weapons are hard to learn, they're absolutely deadly once mastered.
The last patch tried to address complaints about carronades, which have been probably a bit too efficient on most public games but quite balanced once team play was included to matches. The reduced killing speed of classical close range hull strip+explosive combos make engineering mistakes more forgiving. However as a side effect the patch severly harmed the viability of brawl builds in games of higher caliber which isn't a good thing, imo. Frankly I liked the 1.3.2 balance way better than the current one.

Regarding the cog organization:
I'd like to see some sort of time limit for future rumble engagements, but can't provide a good idea for an implementation. Especially as I think a shift to more sniper focused builds can be expected, which will likely result in an increased average match time.

Topic split to keep things organized

Hm, I'm not sure whether that was a clever move... the entire discussion revolves around Sunday Rumble #13 after all.

[James T. Kirk]

I'm hugely in favor of some sort of time limit.

We can all agree that two sniper teams at near equal skill level take a fair bit longer to get 5 kills than two brawly teams at near-equal skill level.

Kills from a sniper build are much more precious, as one missed heavy flak could spell another 30 minutes of game time, while a missed mortar warrants another 30 seconds.

While I believe a lower point limit on sniper games would be the best option, there would need to be clear rules as to what makes a game "sniper."

Because of inevitable gray area, I think a general time limit would be best.

My limited experience planning and participating in events leaves me weary to suggest a time, but I'm sure somebody out there has one in mind.

[Feast on Thrones]

Well I would like to throw my thoughts into this melting pot too. Firstly an apology; to the casters, to those spectators who left the stream because it was dull and to the other teams who could not participate because we took so long. It was not our objective to sit and play for over 3 hours without stopping. It was not our goal to break the rumble. But from my perspective the first game felt like it was done in 20 minutes, the one after 30. It was a non stop manoeuvring, tactical battle of brains as much of braun and that was exhilarating, though I can understand it might not have been first class spectating. I haven't seen the cast but I intend to, so I can look at my performance and also analyse tactics. Preparing myself for the 'best' 3 hours of my life....

The consensus as I see it thus far is that most people are in favour of time constraints for multiple reasons. The most compelling reason as I see it has been well articulated by Shinkurex. Long dull matches means no viewers, no viewers means no casters, no casters means fewer matches and the cycle continues down and down and down. But time constraints may not be the most effective way of keeping the match times down to a reasonable length because it will exclude by its very nature the builds that you are able to bring. Personally I like the sniping, we have trained our ass off to try and reach a decent level of sniping play for the competitive scene. It is something reminiscent of the old times, like Brick said and Wundsalz commented. It would be a shame to let that go. Brawling had taken a nerf but I do not think it is as extensive or as crippling as many cry about but it would be a shame to see just brawling which I think is a possibility if harsh time constraints are implemented.

But I would agree something needs to change. If matches are taking a long time lets say pushing the 45 minutes or 50 minutes mark, casters or judges should state that this match becomes the only one if those participating agree. But even this has serious disadvantages. The really great thing about competitive play is that if your first match goes badly, you often adapt, change your tactics, change the loadout. It is great to see and spectate teams coming up with innovative counters to a build. The matches often go to and fro and that is the beauty for me at least to see this happening. I worry that this will be lost and it will be a monumental shame. The way the rhinos came back in that second game with that combination to complete disable us with art / merc combo was brilliant. And for me that is what makes the game so competitive and so ingenious.

So the question is what do we as a community do to find a middle ground? I don't think there is one right answer, but there needs to be a lot of deliberation here to make sure that nobody is suffering and that sunday night's events are not repeated again too often. And lets put this into context, its not every week that something like this happens.

[Shinkurex]

I think I'd be much more in favor of a sudden death mechanic than a straight time limit... say after 45 Min, the next point wins. It doesn't actually restrict sniping matches, but it saves spectators from watching a 1 - 1 score crawl all the way to 5 - 4.

[DMaximus]

I think I'd be much more in favor of a sudden death mechanic than a straight time limit... say after 45 Min, the next point wins. It doesn't actually restrict sniping matches, but it saves spectators from watching a 1 - 1 score crawl all the way to 5 - 4.

I like this. It doesn't significantly alter the game and it doesn't have as many obvious ways to be abused as a time limit.