1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[Rutger Shaw]

This right here is why I dislike strong based online games. the moment that something goes awry, the way the devs never wanted it to go... they change it on a whim. it isn't just this game. Games like Natural Selection 2, Hawken(granted it was just fully released, but will see this 'balance' bs happen still), Mechwarrior online, or ANY OTHER game where the dev's change things as they see fit. whats the point of releasing a game that isn't "balanced" to begin with? it's a joke. see, if you had released the game that WAS balanced, and completed you wouldn't have players complain each time you did this. on top of that it would also limit your player base to that of which you want.

Just because to made a shinny little gun that does the same thing as the gat, but is an all around eye sore trying to find and shoot a target makes you upset, you turn around like a 5 year old whine that it isn't what you want. why even put out the Pyramidian (THE DAMNED THING HAS A SWORD ON A STICK IN THE FRONT! does that say "don't ram!"?) out in the first place if you didn't want to include up and close combat. its been pointed out that you have nerfed close range EVERY TIME you patch. I will not deny that you haven't done this to long range on occasion but you seriously think that you have played to both sides of the fence?

You say that a ship shouldn't go down so quickly. then what is the point of dropping the armor on the pyramidian? you know what you have done now to that ship right? exactly the opposite of what you want and what you did with the spire. you are constantly making it more weak and unusable to the play style of your players.

We spoke out a bit about the last patch, but we did our damnedest to work around the patch and we did, alright... but eventually it became something beatable. and have you even been watching comp matches lately? the double Pmid style fell flat on its face in a high comp setting.  gat+mortar was insanely underwhelming in any match with double pmid. just because it worked doesn't mean its broken... it could mean that other things are broken. and I cant believe you are upping light flak AGAIN. you DO know that auto kills anything after armor is stripped right?

on a last note, I want you to know... you have basically taken 3 months of hard work that Wolfpack members had put into logos, lore, and developing a strong connection with the community. I and many other members are deeply saddened that this game has taken this grave turn... we wanted to much out of this game and worked hard to be there and have a good time. many have and are now looking into other options away from this game. I wont say we are gone for good, but until you can learn the value of your players and their opinions, we may not show much presence anymore.

and remember, when you release something like this to the world know that it is never going to be YOURS again. This is a lesson all artist must learn.

All the best to everyone out there,
Rutger Shaw of the Wolfpack Mercenary Squadron

[NoWuffo]

Reducing the range of these guns has done a beauty to destroying their place as the go-to win any scenario scene. However, I worry the damage nerfs make the combo unworkable even in a niche way. The last patch's ROF nerf to the gatling was honestly a perfect balance on top of other balances throughout the months to the combo (heavy changes and lesmok changes come to mind). The damage changes made to these guns seemingly unworkable and so I urge you (Awkm) to keep a very close eye to this subject. Gat mortar need not die for other weapon combos to emerge.

I've always liked to mess with Sammy and the Ducks, but I'm completely with him on this point. This last paragraph sums up the situation pretty perfectly. awkm, Bubbles, Keyvias, MetaFive, I'm speaking to you directly, please watch for how the impact of this patch affects the gameplay. I don't think you nerfed the gat/mortar power combo, I believe you may have killed it in higher level play. I know you guys normally follow up any big patch with a hot fix, and I hope this issue is addressed in the coming weeks to see if there can be a re-work for this hot fix.

On a more personal note, In the past few months I've developed a growing respect and friendship for the Wolvies and many of their members. We only got to face off against them once (we thumped them btw...), but they were always good sports and I admire their tenacity and indomitable spirit. I hope things swing back into balance where their play style becomes viable again and they return. If not, well I know I'm going to be playing with them in other games but I feel like the competitive scene just lost the most aggressive clan in the skies. Take care, Wolvies! Blue Skies...

[Asteria Bisset]

Surprisingly, I've been finding the changes to be pretty great, personally speaking. Though, I am concerned since I've lately been on Artemis ships for the majority of my time and it seems to be a stronger than I expected (?). In the hands of a good gunner and pilot, you can effectively shoot down a ship with Artemis/Merc and never have them shoot you back. This might be due to the fact that most of the ships I was up against were Brawler combinations of various kinds that needed to get up close to shoot at us and when they did they didn't do nearly enough damage to warrant me to jump off my gun and repair. I could have easily been a second Gunner instead of an Engineer since one Engineer was enough to maintain the ship.

The damage on the Gat/Mort combo might need to be looked at further if they're hardly scratching us when they actually get in range to shoot. And that's shocking to say that it wasn't actually fun or interesting to shoot them down because they did hardly anything. I'll try to keep playing though and form a more informed opinion on the changes though. I've been having lag issues so I haven't been jumping in as many games.

The for now, angle I really want to get at is that the guns have no bite from what I saw. They don't bring the same sense of danger they did before (and that was only because I understood how effective the combination was) and it's really making them fall flat. I actually want the Gatling and the Mortar to be dangerous. I don't want them close to me. I actually want the tingly sensation in my fingers that I get trying to play keep-away with the high-explosives.

The guns have to both be fun to play against and fun to use. Right now they definitely are very lackluster to play against.

[B'Elanna]

[Thomas]

I think awkm stated it amazingly, although I do miss his meat-based analogies.
( http://gunsoficarus.com/community/blog/balance-mode-how-we-i-respond/ )

We all know the gat/mortar was overused, especially on the pyra. Both of these guns have gone up and down over the course of GoIO, and this latest patch feels really good for me. It might just be because it's still fresh and people are experimenting, but I've been seeing a lot of underused ships and weapons being utilized more. Going into a match is a little more exciting.

If you're entire gameplay experience was ruined by changing how two guns in particular function... well, I'm not sure what to say. Although I would have to advise players against getting married to a particular set of game mechanics. Things will change. Sometimes you'll like it, sometimes you won't; usually it's a bit of both. We just have to put on our big kid pants and roll with it.

[-Mad Maverick-]

We all know the gat/mortar was overused, especially on the pyra. Both of these guns have gone up and down over the course of GoIO, and this latest patch feels really good for me. It might just be because it's still fresh and people are experimenting, but I've been seeing a lot of underused ships and weapons being utilized more. Going into a match is a little more exciting.

If you're entire gameplay experience was ruined by changing how two guns in particular function... well, I'm not sure what to say. Although I would have to advise players against getting married to a particular set of game mechanics. Things will change. Sometimes you'll like it, sometimes you won't; usually it's a bit of both. We just have to put on our big kid pants and roll with it.

dude i dont think you quite get where where the wolves(and others!) are coming from and you may have forgotten the history of "balance" that this game has gone through since beta.  i am tempted to pull up quotes from the old forums of me voicing my frustration(as cpt janeway) that close combat killing did not seem to be intended by the devs evidenced by their nerfs.  now awkm has come out and said as much which i appreciate.   

you see thomas it isnt the nerfing of two guns and a ship that bothers us.  it's the long standing pattern of nerfing MULTIPLE guns and MULTIPLE ships that proves to us that our style of play is not appreciated.  now that awkm confirmed that we are all able to peaceably depart the game knowing that the type of game we wanted to play is not wanted here 

[Thomas]

I don't believe he mentioned anywhere that close combat was never intended. In fact by reducing the effective range on the guns, you have to be closer, encouraging close combat, instead of the mid to short range it was before.

From my understanding, Muse wants lots of viable options for players, not having them just resort to a single playstyle and loadout choice. Then you have to remember that just about all guns have been buffed and nerfed over time. Back in beta the sniping weapons were far too powerful (a good example is that link in my previous post) and underwent a lot of changes, mortars used to be butt awful to aim, the missile launcher even  used to heat seek to the engines. Things change all around, they don't want one style of gameplay emphasized over another. Do they want to kill close range combat? Definitely not. But they don't want it being the 'absolute dominant' style of gameplay.

[-Mad Maverick-]

Back in beta the sniping weapons were far too powerful (a good example is that link in my previous post)

the clear truth is this: if you started playing this game as a long range player this game has always been kind to you.  new guns have been added to your arsenal (see LJ) and you have seen your ships buffed like crazy (see junker).  you have been given new boats (see spire and mob). 

as a close combat player we have seen our boats nerfed (see goldie squid and pyra) our guns over hauled (see heavy flak, light flak, flamer), our guns nerfed (see gat, caro, even from beta!) and have not been given any new toys since what? month 3 of beta?

the only new thing the close combat players get to do is find the next set up that works (be called a noob meta exploiter),have it get nerfed into oblivion(see heavy flak, gat/flak, flamer) and then try again. 

it honestly isnt fun for us thomas.  the reality is, running up that close, taking all that damage on the way in, and some how surviving, doesnt seem like to be "rewarded" to trying to tank for 2 entire clips is fair.  it seems clear to me from awkm's response that he wants me to get close and disable, which makes sense because if i have to get that close and have half hull by the time i get there, if my choices are to wait for two clips of gat to strip the hull, or caronade him and hopefully get him out of arc, i dont actually have a choice.  THAT is why im saying this patch worked exactly how it was intended and i cant be mad about it but lets be ok as a community to call it what it is; a long running and consistent nerfing of short range strategies.

nerfing range was cool i actually liked that idea, but nerfing dmg out put makes no sense unless you dont want close combat kills...

which sucks because i think we can ALL agree what we really want to get out of the game is "cold cloudy combat climbs"

[Spud Nick]

I can see gunners being more useful on gatling guns now. Because of the damage nerf and how important it is to strip armor, having two other ammo types could give you the advantage.

[Sammy B. T.]

Except a gunner is now functionally mandatory for the Mortar

[Echoez]

the clear truth is this: if you started playing this game as a long range player this game has always been kind to you.  new guns have been added to your arsenal (see LJ) and you have seen your ships buffed like crazy (see junker).  you have been given new boats (see spire and mob). 

as a close combat player we have seen our boats nerfed (see goldie squid and pyra) our guns over hauled (see heavy flak, light flak, flamer), our guns nerfed (see gat, caro, even from beta!) and have not been given any new toys since what? month 3 of beta?

the only new thing the close combat players get to do is find the next set up that works (be called a noob meta exploiter),have it get nerfed into oblivion(see heavy flak, gat/flak, flamer) and then try again. 

Pfft man please, get out of my head! This is so true I almost shed a manly tear. (agreed with everything bar the Mercury, which was hit hard, but rightfully so)

Okay, overdramatization is off now, but still, pretty much what he said. It's why I've also been complaining there aren't many new guns, because quite honestly I much preferred the close range scenarios and only used guns that amplified that strategy, all I've seen is nerfs to everything I love because someone else felt like they couldn't handle it, some call it Gat/Flak, I call it Blenderfish, someone else prolly has something else in mind? I don't know. Some people might even think it's still fine to use them, I simply disagree.

Okay so, after having played more matches in this patch I think I pretty much have a general grasp of how things are going on. Pretty much I personally feel like this patch forces me to be prepared for AT LEAST 2 different ranges. (long-mid, short-mid, short-long) or I will be at a severe disadvantage. The damage nerf of the Gatling was increasingly evident as I played with my Junker (gave up on the Goldfish completely, may you rest in peace my dear Riven, I will forever remember you.), the enemy had a Gat/Mortar Pyramidion, so at first I was wary of my armor.. the outcome was hilarious, my engineers didn't even have to leave their posts to go repair the hull because the Gatling is so low damage and inaccurate (still!) from point blank. The Junker is fairly impervious to Gatling fire now unless you have 2 of them hitting you accurately.

One good thing about this though, I have to admit, is that I finally felt comfortable of bringing a gunner on a Junker, his ammo diversity allowed both my close and mid-long sides to work at max efficiency (aka Lesmok-Greased for the Hades and Heavy-Greased for the Light Carronade). Though I wouldn't realy call it my short range side, mostly my 'let's finish them now' side after the hell of my 2Arty/Hades has inflicted upon them while approaching (oh yes you can get a long range trifecta with these guns, it's beautiful)


Some final thoughs on the subject.. the nerfs on this patch pretty much feel like a "Please use something else" plee from Muse to us rather than actuall balancing, that's the vibe I get from it and which is why as I said, I don't like the feel of it. (That was not meant as a personal thing against you Zill even in my previous posts, just to clear that up, I meant no ill will)

[Kitty.Hawk]

Just reporting in from my play over the last two days. Gat seems incredibly underwhelming now. My difecta carronade junker is in range by the time they are starting to make a dent in my armor. And I typically win the armor stripping race after that point.
 
My 2 cents would be this. Gat vs disables. Can it do significant damage before it will be disabled by disablers (Most of which work equally well if not better at close range)? My answer would be no. An Artemis will disabled it before it can get armor down, as will hwatcha's or even well aimed carronades.

Can you disable their disabling guns first so your gat can take down the armor? Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on the gat to take well attended armor down before the disable weapon is back online and disabling you again.
 
Can you position yourself so that their disables can't get arc? Yes. But this is true of any close range weapon combo, what makes gat special in taking advantage of this?
 
What I am trying to point out is the same as many others, the damage needs to be there at those close ranges. Especially for a weapon whose primary purpose is to strip armor. I approve of the range nerf, but the damage needs to be put closer to the 1.3.2 number (But perhaps a tiny bit lower, like 9.)

[NoWuffo]

I don't believe he mentioned anywhere that close combat was never intended. In fact by reducing the effective range on the guns, you have to be closer, encouraging close combat, instead of the mid to short range it was before.

From my understanding, Muse wants lots of viable options for players, not having them just resort to a single playstyle and loadout choice. Then you have to remember that just about all guns have been buffed and nerfed over time...

No one is really arguing with the range reduction on the gat/mortar anymore really. The range reduction was ok, specialize it to a short range only weapon to give way for the Hades to be viable at mid-long range. Now true, it basically throws away the skill of some of the better gat gunners like Salous or Garou, some of the only gunners I've seen who could actually hit gat shots consistently at 700 m, but I'm not going to really complain about that too much because hey that's part of the game. What we're all calling fowl on is the dps reduction. It's crippled the close range kill combo, to the point where as many experienced pilots have already said, it's nothing to be feared anymore. Not feared = not viable, if you know you can easily counter it. The whole "buffed and nerfed over time deal that you speak of doesn't really apply to brawlers, especially not in the past few months. It's been a consistent nerf of all of the strengths of the punch-in-the-jaw builds. B'Elana's "Not this again!" sums up exactly how I feel about the pattern of bralwer-nerfing that's been happening time and time again.

I am willing to believe Muse isn't deliberately trying to take away the close range brawlers. However, in this last patch they've negated them to the point where no one will be using it. There is no considering the options in terms of bringing a gat/mortar combo, it's an instant "NO" from any pilot worth their salt. There are far better options now, and the gat/mortar pyra is so easily countered it's a joke. I'm really hoping the hotfix will dial back some of the nerf-attack that befell the gat and mortar, because right now they're pathetic and underpowered.

[Subarco]

This right here is why I dislike strong based online games. the moment that something goes awry, the way the devs never wanted it to go... they change it on a whim. it isn't just this game. Games like Natural Selection 2, Hawken(granted it was just fully released, but will see this 'balance' bs happen still), Mechwarrior online, or ANY OTHER game where the dev's change things as they see fit. whats the point of releasing a game that isn't "balanced" to begin with? it's a joke. see, if you had released the game that WAS balanced, and completed you wouldn't have players complain each time you did this. on top of that it would also limit your player base to that of which you want.

No competitive games released are ever going to be perfectly balanced from release or even afterwards. In fact, many good competitive games receive extensive balancing tweaks over time. That's how hard balancing is. There will always going to be complaints about it because you can't make everyone happy.

[Sammy B. T.]

What we're all calling fowl on is the...

Hey now!