Main > Gameplay
1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
Sammy B. T.:
--- Quote from: Imagine ---No less valid than any of the baseless the-sky-is-falling posts I've seen here.
--- End quote ---
Imagine, as someone who is interested in getting into the casting business for this game, you may wish to actually try deeper analysis than that. People who watch will want right long thought out analysis, they might even appreciate incorrect, but still thought out analysis. I doubt heavily they want a one liner dismissive opinion devoid of any rationale. As a major member of the community, lets step up to elevate conversation instead of resorting to sinking to a level you evidently find "baseless."
Awkm, hugs and kisses
I think most of would agree that there was an issue with the pervasiveness of the Gatling/Mortar combination and that is was too much an all rounder as it was equally effective at mid range and close range. I never rose a fuss in dev app as I didn't realize the extent of the DPS loss of the Gatling and the decreased clip of the Mortar. In addition, these aren't guns I've every really used so I didn't spend much time testing them. I guess I never thought such a defining feature would be hit so hard.
I can understand why a lot of the people in this thread are saying Gat/Mortar had its time, it was too pervasive, it needed a nerf, what have you. I to an extent agree with this.
Now I believe the thought Awkm was having with all this was to specialize the piercing/explosive combos. Merc Art; long range, Magma Flak; Medium Range, Gat Mortar; Short Range. Each represents their own risk reward paradigm. The long range is less risky but less damage do to the enemy do to hard hits and low clip weapons. The short range is the oppisite, risky due to close proximity but much damage due to powerful weapons. The range nerf was fantastic for this. A gatling gun with heavy was able to disable the big guns at far too big a range and those lesmok mortars might as well have been flaks. I dig the range nerf, I dig it a lot. My issue, and I think the issue for a lot of people, but don't exactly realize it, is the fact that getting in close isn't giving the reward that is worth the risk. You mentioned in your most recent post that a kill should functionally be from one team either messing up or the other team doing exceptionally well. In my experience getting withing 400 meters with both weapons in tact, engines in good enough repair to keep you on target, and armor left to kill before getting killed, requires either a great stroke or a doom mistake. The long range should have been able to take out your weapons or engines and/or the medium range should have crippled your ship enough to kill you in the close despite your better suited weapons. The reason that this has happened is something beyond the pure numbers game which I think was always your intent (after all if this was to be a numbers game, health and damage stats would be much more accessible.)
If we want the gat/mort to be a solely short range, it needs to be exceptional at it to reflect the exception ability to get so close. That is why I think the damage nerfs are the real issue here. While I understand the desire to buff gunners by making guns need more than one ammo, you're never going to have people take a gunner for a chain when you have functionally forced the mortar to be a gunner. If a weapon combo needs two gunners, then it really isn't workable with how this game plays.
Reducing the range of these guns has done a beauty to destroying their place as the go-to win any scenario scene. However, I worry the damage nerfs make the combo unworkable even in a niche way. The last patch's ROF nerf to the gatling was honestly a perfect balance on top of other balances throughout the months to the combo (heavy changes and lesmok changes come to mind). The damage changes made to these guns seemingly unworkable and so I urge you (Awkm) to keep a very close eye to this subject. Gat mortar need not die for other weapon combos to emerge.
Imagine:
--- Quote from: Sammy B. T. on October 30, 2013, 12:46:00 am ---
--- Quote from: Imagine ---No less valid than any of the baseless the-sky-is-falling posts I've seen here.
--- End quote ---
Imagine, as someone who is interested in getting into the casting business for this game, you may wish to actually try deeper analysis than that. People who watch will want right long thought out analysis, they might even appreciate incorrect, but still thought out analysis. I doubt heavily they want a one liner dismissive opinion devoid of any rationale. As a major member of the community, lets step up to elevate conversation instead of resorting to sinking to a level you evidently find "baseless."
--- End quote ---
I can only speak from what I experienced today. Carronades still hit and murder from farther than you'd think, gat mortar still murdered the same way. Sure, we've yet to see a tournament played in this patch, so we'll all have to wait to see how it'll all shake out, but right now it's a select few people howling about how this is terrible and how bad it will make everything when all we have is idle speculation, and that's not how I roll. From the play today however, I haven't seen a single indication that it's going to be that drastic of a change.
Also, if you actually bothered watching anything I've casted, you'd know that I do quite a bit of analysis. What I do/say on cast, however, does not have to reflect the same way write on the forums.
Garou:
I feel it's too blanket a statement to say that other builds/setups/strategies were 'forgotten' with point blank gat/morter. Frankly, putting it that way is simply wrong. I didn't see that at all in my experiences. Our clan was one of the only ones using it at the competitive level. In pubs, I constantly see a variety of different builds. I personally use a variety of different builds. The gat/morter was never about 'safe', it was about play style and strategy, at least to me.
At this point, I'm simply tired of trying to defend it. I personally enjoyed aggressive play and the intensity of a close, brawling dogfight, but apparently I'm in the minority, and that isn't what the spirit, nor the future, of this game is about. I'm afraid I'll have to retract my earlier sentiment, I don't feel I'll be playing this game much any more.
Muse, you've done a great job so far and I wish you the best in your future endeavors, I still respect you guys very much as a development team. I want to be clear that I'm not doing this as a way to influence or push any decisions you make with the game, I'm simply not interested in the direction the intended spirit of the game, as you described it, will be taking it and I find it disheartening that I've been defending a tactic that I and my clan mates enjoyed very much that, evidently, was 'broken'. My apologies to those I've argued with on the subject, clearly I was in the wrong.
To the community at large, I've enjoyed your company and I've had a lot of fun flying with you guys. Those who are inclined, my steam is garou1911, feel free to keep in touch, and maybe we can play other games together.
My time in Icarus was fun and I'm sad to see it end. I hope the rest of you have fun and are excited for the developments that are on the way. Keep the community classy, it's one of the better ones out there.
Dutch Vanya:
I never have much to add to these conversations, but i just wonder why a nerf to these weapons is being perceived as if they are completely removed from the game?
-Mad Maverick-:
--- Quote from: awkm on October 29, 2013, 11:45:02 pm ---How are we supposed to be playing the game?
designed in a lot of ways you can do that through disabling. We want you to disable. We want you to fly into position. Deny others' positions. Get denied. Retreat. Reform. Only until you execute your build effectively or catch an opponent unwary will you be rewarded with the kill.
Ships should be hard to kill. Point blank gat/mortar, again, negated gaining the position on someone to a great degree.
--- End quote ---
awkm, thanks again so much for responding, always confirming and reconfirming you guys are the best dev team out there. it does seem like you are confirming what i believed to be true, that the type of strategy that i want to employ is not the strategy you want in the game. im not mad about that at all and im glad you came out and said it! knowing this allows me to relax on trying to beat the drum i was beating and allow you guys to make the game YOU want to make. sure it does suck that it isnt the type of game i want to play but that really is ok, i dont play COD either and they are doing just fine without me :).
i do want to give one last piece of feedback though. as you move forward in developing the game and players start learning how to make guns and ships synergistic to a very effective degree i would suggest that instead of nerfing something that you create a new alternative. for instance, if you find that after this patch the hwacha becomes very effective when combined with hades/merc on a spire (not saying it will be, just a hypothetical!) instead of nerfing it i think you should create a new ship or gun that could be a good counter for it. and if that becomes too effective create another ship or gun to counter that. i know this is more time consuming than just changing numbers but i think the effort will be well worth it when you look at how dynamic your game will be. but hey ive never developed a game before so im kinda just talking out my ass.
good luck to you muse, you guys are the best and im sure to be back when my kickstart investment comes back to roost. :-P
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